70 years since atomic bombing of Hirosima

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**Frazzled**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Remorse? I'm going to eat some freaking barbeque in celebration.
Had they had the memorial to all civilians who died in WWII I'd be onside. To me this is no different than the battle of Berlin.

If that is how you want to react to the wholesale murder of civilians, then that is your right.

Damn straight it is. I'll pour one for the Frazzled who never left Tarawa too.

**Kanluwen**

Frazzled wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

The Battle of Okinawa resulted in 72,000 US casualties in 82 days, of whom 12,510 were killed or missing (this is conservative, because it excludes several thousand US soldiers who died after the battle indirectly, from their wounds). The entire island of Okinawa is 464 sq mi (1,200 km2). If the US casualty rate during the invasion of Japan had been only 5% as high per unit area as it was at Okinawa, the US would still have lost 297,000 soldiers (killed or missing).
300,000? For an entire invasion? That is nothing. Both Russia and Germany lost that many just in the Battle for Moscow alone.
The bombs may have caused less casualties, but I think it was bad because it was a deliberate murder of civilians.

I was being conservative. Other estimates were 1mm allied casualties (not sure if that included naval casualties) alone.

That 1mm was for the ground component alone, air crews and naval casualties weren't included.

Also:
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen for their value as military targets.

The 2nd General Army and Chugoku Regional Army were headquartered in Hiroshima, and the Army Marine Headquarters was located at Ujina port. The city also had large depots of military supplies, and was a key center for shipping
Nagasaki was a secondary target, the primary target was Kokura. Nagasaki was a large arms manufacturing prefecture, using slave labor from POWs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Remorse? I'm going to eat some freaking barbeque in celebration.
Had they had the memorial to all civilians who died in WWII I'd be onside. To me this is no different than the battle of Berlin.

If that is how you want to react to the wholesale murder of civilians, then that is your right.

**Polonius**

The atomic bombings were a difference of degree, but not of kind, from what had been happening in industrial warfare for the first half of the 20th century. While the mindnumbing power of the bombs was new, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not the only cities bombed into rubble. The only thing that held back a nation from carpet bombing enemy cities was the means to do so. Every major combatant relied on a total war strategy, and they all realized that the ability of a nation to produce weapons was a key component to its ability to fight.

That the bombings targeted civilians was unusual for the US only because most of our bombings had attempted to be precision. However, both Dresden and Tokyo were firebombed with no real concern for military or civilian targets. The British bombed German cities at night, with staggering collateral damage.

The treatment of civilians during WWII, by all nations, led to the fourth Geneva Convention. Further, our increasing ability to make military strikes with limited collateral damage make the horribly imprecise bombing of WWII seem callous. But these were ethical considerations made at the time, and while nearly unthinkable now, they were appropriate at the time.

**Kilkrazy**

Kanluwen wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
Freakazoitt wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

The WHY it was wiped out is highly pertinent. Dropping it is an excellent way to make Japan look like the victim.

They dropped bomb because they had it. Other things doesn't matter. Bomb itself was more evil than Japan, USA and whatever.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

However this thread does show something important about these attacks. People from America tend to feel far less remorse about it that people from other countries do.

Ask someone from China, Vietnam, the Philippines, or the Koreas how they feel about the dropping of the atomic bombs.

Or any of the POWs or soldiers from the Allied forces who fought against the Japanese.

George MacDonald Fraser, who fought in the Burma campaign, said that his unit would have preferred to go on fighting rather than drop such a bomb to end the war. It's in "Quartered Safe Out Here."

**Freakazoitt**

Americans still celebrating atomic bombing?

**welshhoppo**

kronk wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
Freakazoitt wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

The WHY it was wiped out is highly pertinent. Dropping it is an excellent way to make Japan look like the victim.

They dropped bomb because they had it. Other things doesn't matter. Bomb itself was more evil than Japan, USA and whatever.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

However this thread does show something important about these attacks. People from America tend to feel far less remorse about it that people from other countries do.

I doubt the Chinese or the Koreans feel as much remorse as you apparently do.

USA rules, Japan Drools.

Take your revisionist history BS to the other thread. Nukes saved lives. Period.

You mistake me. Read my first comment. I believe that the nukes were the best way to go about it. Doesn't mean that we can't feel bad about doing it however.

**whembly**

welshhoppo wrote:

However this thread does show something important about these attacks. People from America tend to feel far less remorse about it that people from other countries do.

Here's the key lesson from WW2.

1) don't fething do a sneak attack on America

2) in an all-out-war, just about anything is fair game

We will feth you up. End of story.

All these reflections on whether or not we were right to drop these bombs is just chickgak moral relativism.

**SagesStone**

Freakazoitt wrote:
Americans still celebrating atomic bombing?

Endlessly every year at this time of year yeh.

Get to hear all the wonderful things like "Two nukes weren't enough" etc.

**Frazzled**

Freakazoitt wrote:
Americans still celebrating atomic bombing?

Russians still celebrating the Great Patriotic War?

**Kanluwen**

Freakazoitt wrote:
Americans still celebrating atomic bombing?

Russian who consistently defends Russian aggression still taking shots at Americans?

**kronk**

Freakazoitt wrote:
Americans still celebrating atomic bombing?

No one is actually celebrating, no. You won't see "Hiroshima Sales, our Bombs are Away on these Prices!" anytime soon.

But to be told we are evil warmongering child-killers? Nah, go feth yourself.

**Polonius**

whembly wrote:
All these reflections on whether or not we were right to drop these bombs is just chickgak moral relativism.

The real question isn't if we should have dropped the bombs, which was a topic of concern even at the time. Many of the scientists working on the Manhattan Project opposed the idea of using the weapon in combat. The reality is that it was a weapon, and it was used, just like any other weapon.

The real question is if we should have done more to try to secure a negotiated peace with Japan before dropping the bombs. But, even then, the bombs were terrible, but so were all the other bombs dropped in the war.

**Kanluwen**

n0t_u wrote:
Freakazoitt wrote:
Americans still celebrating atomic bombing?

Endlessly every year at this time of year yeh.

Get to hear all the wonderful things like "Two nukes weren't enough" etc.

And those people are cretins, what's your point?

It's not like America gets together every year and say "Hey. Screw those Japanese!"

**Frazzled**

n0t_u wrote:
Freakazoitt wrote:
Americans still celebrating atomic bombing?

Endlessly every year at this time of year yeh.

Get to hear all the wonderful things like "Two nukes weren't enough" etc.

Quiet Aussie. If it weren't for the Lexington and Yorktown, you would be speaking Japanese, or maybe Belgium.

**whembly**

Freakazoitt wrote:
Americans still celebrating atomic bombing?

No really... other than, 'USA Rocks, Japan Drools' on the 'net.

*shrug*

**kronk**

welshhoppo wrote:

You mistake me. Read my first comment. I believe that the nukes were the best way to go about it. Doesn't mean that we can't feel bad about doing it however.

Sorry about that. The other thread still rubs me the wrong way.

**welshhoppo**

kronk wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:

You mistake me. Read my first comment. I believe that the nukes were the best way to go about it. Doesn't mean that we can't feel bad about doing it however.

Sorry about that. The other thread still rubs me the wrong way.

Oh I know, I haven't been on it for good reason.

I'm a historian in my spare time, so remembering the past is important to me. Be it good (British bringing civilization to the world) or bad (killing everyone who wasn't civilized in order to make it happen.)

**A Town Called Malus**

Kanluwen wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Remorse? I'm going to eat some freaking barbeque in celebration.
Had they had the memorial to all civilians who died in WWII I'd be onside. To me this is no different than the battle of Berlin.

If that is how you want to react to the wholesale murder of civilians, then that is your right.

Are you facepalming Fraz or me?

Because neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki were military targets. The bombs were deliberately dropped on major civilian populations. What part of that isn't wholesale murder?

**SagesStone**

Kanluwen wrote:
n0t_u wrote:
Freakazoitt wrote:
Americans still celebrating atomic bombing?

Endlessly every year at this time of year yeh.

Get to hear all the wonderful things like "Two nukes weren't enough" etc.

And those people are cretins, what's your point?

It's not like America gets together every year and say "Hey. Screw those Japanese!"

That I hate the cretins.

Frazzled wrote:
n0t_u wrote:
Freakazoitt wrote:
Americans still celebrating atomic bombing?

Endlessly every year at this time of year yeh.

Get to hear all the wonderful things like "Two nukes weren't enough" etc.

Quiet Aussie. If it weren't for the Lexington and Yorktown, you would be speaking Japanese, or maybe Belgium.

I do tho, don't be obtuse.

**kronk**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Remorse? I'm going to eat some freaking barbeque in celebration.
Had they had the memorial to all civilians who died in WWII I'd be onside. To me this is no different than the battle of Berlin.

If that is how you want to react to the wholesale murder of civilians, then that is your right.

Are you facepalming Fraz or me?

Because neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki were military targets. The bombs were deliberately dropped on major civilian populations. What part of that isn't wholesale murder?

Actual facts. That's what makes it a military target. 2 minute wiki search.

Nagasaki: During World War II, at the time of the nuclear attack on August 9, 1945, Nagasaki was an important industrial city, containing both plants of the Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works, the Akunoura Engine Works, Mitsubishi Arms Plant, Mitsubishi Electric Shipyards, Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works, Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Works, several other small factories, and most of the ports storage and trans-shipment facilities, which employed about 90% of the city's labor force, and accounted for 90% of the city's industry. These connections with the Japanese war effort made Nagasaki a major target for bombing by the Allies during the war.[7][8]

Hiroshima: During World War II, the 2nd General Army and Chugoku Regional Army were headquartered in Hiroshima, and the Army Marine Headquarters was located at Ujina port. The city also had large depots of military supplies, and was a key center for shipping.

Got any other "Facts" you'd like to share? Do go on.

**Frazzled**

Because neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki were military targets. The bombs were deliberately dropped on major civilian populations. What part of that isn't wholesale murder?

As noted already:

At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of both industrial and military significance. A number of military units were located nearby, the most important of which was the headquarters of Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's Second General Army, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan,[104] and was located in Hiroshima Castle. Hata's command consisted of some 400,000 men, most of whom were on Kyushu where an Allied invasion was correctly anticipated.[105] Also present in Hiroshima were the headquarters of the 59th Army, the 5th Division and the 224th Division, a recently formed mobile unit.[106] The city was defended by five batteries of 7-and-8-centimeter (2.8 and 3.1 in) anti-aircraft guns of the 3rd Anti-Aircraft Division, including units from the 121st and 122nd Anti-Aircraft Regiments and the 22nd and 45th Separate Anti-Aircraft Battalions. In total, over 40,000 military personnel were stationed in the city.[107]

Hiroshima was a minor supply and logistics base for the Japanese military, but it also had large stockpiles of military supplies.[108] The city was a communications center, a key port for shipping and an assembly area for troops.[73] It was also the second largest city in Japan after Kyoto that was still undamaged by air raids,[109] due to the fact that it lacked the aircraft manufacturing industry that was the XXI Bomber Command's priority target. On July 3, the Joint Chiefs of Staff placed it off limits to bombers, along with Kokura, Niigata and Kyoto.[110]

Wiki

**CptJake**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
CptJake wrote:
n0t_u wrote:

Regardless in the end it was not a better idea to do such a thing the losses from the land invasion would have been smaller in the long run, though I'm unsure how aware they would have been on the affects of radiation poisoning.

A land invasion would have had LESS casualties?

A joint land invasion with the Soviets? Yes it would. Japan had pulled all of its forces to the south of the main island. A joint assault by the Soviets and Americans would have split that force in half and thrown their resistance into a mess.

The USA had complete air and sea dominance, Japan was starving. Just wait a couple of months until they are literally to weak to fight and roll in.

You're crazy. Civilians always have it harder during a long invasion. 'Starving' Japan would have been a nightmare of bombing, fortified positions in civilian occupied cities that needed to be reduced, and so on. Look at the number of German civilian casualties. Between 1.5 and almost 3 million depending on the source. Japan suffered less than 700k. An invasion would have dramatically increased civilian casualties.

And again, you are ignoring allied casualties. Not a lot of Americans lost their life invading Japan. Because we didn't have to invade. And frankly at that time (not looking back through 70 years of hindsight with politically correct lenses) saving our troops was a feth load more important that saving Japanese troops or civilians. Had the Emperor told them to fight until the death, their deaths would have been on his hands, and there would have been a lot of them.

**Iron_Captain**

kronk wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Remorse? I'm going to eat some freaking barbeque in celebration.
Had they had the memorial to all civilians who died in WWII I'd be onside. To me this is no different than the battle of Berlin.

If that is how you want to react to the wholesale murder of civilians, then that is your right.

Are you facepalming Fraz or me?

Because neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki were military targets. The bombs were deliberately dropped on major civilian populations. What part of that isn't wholesale murder?

Actual facts. That's what makes it a military target. 2 minute wiki search.

Nagasaki: During World War II, at the time of the nuclear attack on August 9, 1945, Nagasaki was an important industrial city, containing both plants of the Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works, the Akunoura Engine Works, Mitsubishi Arms Plant, Mitsubishi Electric Shipyards, Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works, Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Works, several other small factories, and most of the ports storage and trans-shipment facilities, which employed about 90% of the city's labor force, and accounted for 90% of the city's industry. These connections with the Japanese war effort made Nagasaki a major target for bombing by the Allies during the war.[7][8]

Hiroshima: During World War II, the 2nd General Army and Chugoku Regional Army were headquartered in Hiroshima, and the Army Marine Headquarters was located at Ujina port. The city also had large depots of military supplies, and was a key center for shipping.

Got any other "Facts" you'd like to share? Do go on.

Factories and an military HQ building don't make the entire city a military target.

Frazzled wrote:
Freakazoitt wrote:
Americans still celebrating atomic bombing?

Russians still celebrating the Great Patriotic War?

We celebrate the end of the the war and mourn for the many millions of people we lost, yes.
But we do not celebrate the destruction of German cities and the deaths of German civillians. There is difference between celebrating the end of a war and celebrating nuking hundreds of thousands innocent people. There is nothing wrong with Americans celebrating their victory over Japan. There is however, with Americans being happy about and celebrating the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

**whembly**

Besides, had we not dropped the bomb, you could argue the following:
1) a land invasion would be so bloody, Japan probably wouldn't exist as it does now. Heck, it may have become a US Territory.

2) there probably would've been a nuke war soon afterwards, as the world didn't appreciate the reprecusion yet.

**Polonius**

And the bombing of civilians was seen as appropriate wartime actions, by all parties, during World War II. (Also before, if you want to look at Zepplins in WWI, the Condor Legion in the Spanish Civil War, and then Japanese attacks in China.)

In industrialized war, the means of production are targets. That means factories, that means transportation, and at times, that includes simply bombing neighborhoods. It was simply part of the war.

**whembly**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Factories and an military HQ building don't make the entire city a military target.

In Total War™... yes... yes it does dude.

You kill your enemies and their supporters until they stop.

**Kanluwen**

Iron_Captain wrote:
kronk wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Remorse? I'm going to eat some freaking barbeque in celebration.
Had they had the memorial to all civilians who died in WWII I'd be onside. To me this is no different than the battle of Berlin.

If that is how you want to react to the wholesale murder of civilians, then that is your right.

Are you facepalming Fraz or me?

Because neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki were military targets. The bombs were deliberately dropped on major civilian populations. What part of that isn't wholesale murder?

Actual facts. That's what makes it a military target. 2 minute wiki search.

Nagasaki: During World War II, at the time of the nuclear attack on August 9, 1945, Nagasaki was an important industrial city, containing both plants of the Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works, the Akunoura Engine Works, Mitsubishi Arms Plant, Mitsubishi Electric Shipyards, Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works, Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Works, several other small factories, and most of the ports storage and trans-shipment facilities, which employed about 90% of the city's labor force, and accounted for 90% of the city's industry. These connections with the Japanese war effort made Nagasaki a major target for bombing by the Allies during the war.[7][8]

Hiroshima: During World War II, the 2nd General Army and Chugoku Regional Army were headquartered in Hiroshima, and the Army Marine Headquarters was located at Ujina port. The city also had large depots of military supplies, and was a key center for shipping.

Got any other "Facts" you'd like to share? Do go on.

Factories and an military HQ building don't make the entire city a military target.

In this day and age? No, it doesn't.

But during WW2 it did--and what's more, it's not like those targets are situated conveniently outside of the city.

**Frazzled**

Iron_Captain wrote:
kronk wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Remorse? I'm going to eat some freaking barbeque in celebration.
Had they had the memorial to all civilians who died in WWII I'd be onside. To me this is no different than the battle of Berlin.

If that is how you want to react to the wholesale murder of civilians, then that is your right.

Are you facepalming Fraz or me?

Because neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki were military targets. The bombs were deliberately dropped on major civilian populations. What part of that isn't wholesale murder?

Actual facts. That's what makes it a military target. 2 minute wiki search.

Nagasaki: During World War II, at the time of the nuclear attack on August 9, 1945, Nagasaki was an important industrial city, containing both plants of the Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works, the Akunoura Engine Works, Mitsubishi Arms Plant, Mitsubishi Electric Shipyards, Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works, Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Works, several other small factories, and most of the ports storage and trans-shipment facilities, which employed about 90% of the city's labor force, and accounted for 90% of the city's industry. These connections with the Japanese war effort made Nagasaki a major target for bombing by the Allies during the war.[7][8]

Hiroshima: During World War II, the 2nd General Army and Chugoku Regional Army were headquartered in Hiroshima, and the Army Marine Headquarters was located at Ujina port. The city also had large depots of military supplies, and was a key center for shipping.

Got any other "Facts" you'd like to share? Do go on.

Factories and an military HQ building don't make the entire city a military target.

It does if your bomb takes out a city. Considering precision bombing was nonexistenst with Japan due to frequent poor visibility, thats as accurate as its going to get. Otherwise they would just have been carpet bombed, doing the same thing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

whembly wrote:
Besides, had we not dropped the bomb, you could argue the following:
1) a land invasion would be so bloody, Japan probably wouldn't exist as it does now. Heck, it may have become a US Territory.

2) there probably would've been a nuke war soon afterwards, as the world didn't appreciate the reprecusion yet.

And again, up to FIFTEEN nukes were slotted to be used during the invasion.

**kronk**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Factories and an military HQ building don't make the entire city a military target.

You guys NEVER did that! Oh, wait...

Throughout 1943, the Soviets attempted to give the impression of cooperation between their bombers and those of the West.[163] In February 1944 they again shifted priority, this time towards terror bombing, with the goal of knocking Finland and Hungary out of the war.[163] Helsinki was struck by 733 bombers on the night of 6–7 February, by 367 on the 15–16th and 850 on the 25–26th. A total of 2,386 tonnes of bombs were dropped.[163] Budapest was hit four straight nights from 13–20 September with a total of 8,000 tonnes by 1,129 bombers. The Soviets flew 4,466 sorties into enemy territory in the year 1944. In December the Long Range Air Force was reorganized as the 18th Air Army.[163]

The higher the horse, the harder the fall!

**ChrisRR**

I'm pretty sure if you look at history you will see that the Japanese army kill thousands upon thousands of civilians! I have no remorse what so ever of dropping the bomb! A commander and Chiefs responsibility is to his people first and foremost and by dropping the bomb Truman saved thousands of AMERICAN lives that is the only people he has to worry about in a time of war.