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In previous versions of the game, you were able to fight with your base S and Attacks in close combat if you wanted to. Essentially you would "turn off" your powerfist to avoid wiping a squad in your close combat phase, saving you from being shot the next turn, or striking before a foe, or whatever.

I had a game with a buddy where his Wolf Lord with Relic Axe (the +3 attack one) and Stormshield on a Thunderwolf was locked in a challenge with my Grey Knight Strike Squad Justicar and and activated Nemesis Force Halberd.

Since the Wolf Lord was I1 with the Axe, we were wondering if he could instead elect to attack with his base S and A, using "rending" from the Thunderwolf mount to try to stop my Justicar before he swung. We couldn't really find anything in the rulebook that seemed to imply either way, and just let it go. The Justicar ended up "Force Weaponing" the Wolf Lord, and we were kinda at a loss as to whether or not the Wolf Lord should have had a chance to swing first if he wanted.

What are Dakka's thoughts?

From what I remember (my book is at home), you can choose with which close combat weapon you attack. You can only use 1 tho. And if the Rending special rule come from something else than a weapon he is not using, then he could use his CCW with the rending special rule.

But, he would need to have another CCW. So, if the Lord have a base CCW in his loadout, and the option is to get a Relic axe, than yes he can. If it says replace CCW with a Relic Axe, than no, he can only attack with the relic Axe.

 PandaHero wrote:
But, he would need to have another CCW. So, if the Lord have a base CCW in his loadout, and the option is to get a Relic axe, than yes he can. If it says replace CCW with a Relic Axe, than no, he can only attack with the relic Axe.

This is the key point. Do note that Pistols are CCW in the Assault Phase, though, so that can be chosen to use instead of the Axe/Fist/Hammer, but you do have to have that alternative to use it. An Hammer/Shield Terminator cannot hit with his Shield as a CCW, and so may only use his Thunder Hammer to make Assault Phase Attacks.

iirc nothing in the assault section requires you to pick a weapon to strike with.

Most people reference a rule from the weapons section, where if a model has more than one weapon with the melee type it must pick one to strike with.

This leaves a situation where if you do not have more than one weapon with the melee type you are not told you must strike with a weapon, or that you must pick it to strike with. It is possible to follow the sequence of assault rules without needing a weapon and resolve I, A, WS, S, and casualties.

blaktoof wrote:
iirc nothing in the assault section requires you to pick a weapon to strike with.

Most people reference a rule from the weapons section, where if a model has more than one weapon with the melee type it must pick one to strike with.

Doesn't mean it still isn't in force.

blaktoof wrote:
This leaves a situation where if you do not have more than one weapon with the melee type you are not told you must strike with a weapon, or that you must pick it to strike with. It is possible to follow the sequence of assault rules without needing a weapon and resolve I, A, WS, S, and casualties.

How? What allows you to strike without a Weapon? Indeed if the model does not have a Melee Weapon, only then will it get a "free" CCW.

Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
iirc nothing in the assault section requires you to pick a weapon to strike with.

Most people reference a rule from the weapons section, where if a model has more than one weapon with the melee type it must pick one to strike with.

Doesn't mean it still isn't in force.

blaktoof wrote:
This leaves a situation where if you do not have more than one weapon with the melee type you are not told you must strike with a weapon, or that you must pick it to strike with. It is possible to follow the sequence of assault rules without needing a weapon and resolve I, A, WS, S, and casualties.

How? What allows you to strike without a Weapon? Indeed if the model does not have a Melee Weapon, only then will it get a "free" CCW.

If you go through the rules for assault under "fight subphase" nothing requires you to use a weapon, or choose a weapon to strike with.

it is 100% rules possible to resolve assault without using a weapon.

There is no weapon requirement on initiative, rolling to hit, rolling to wound, rolling saves or removing casualties. Each one has sections that mention that weapons can modify certain things, but none of them ask the player to look at a weapon profile or do anything in regards to a weapon profile to resolve.

So the question is not how, or what allows you to strike without a weapon, the question is Where does it say you must strike with a weapon? Where does it say you must pick a weapon, look at a weapon profile to resolve to pile in, to hit, to wound, saves, etc? It doesn't anywhere.

The assault rules are written with the assumption that all models have a CCW to attack with. Even models that do not have a CCW act as if they had a CCW.

What about this portion in the weapons section under close combat weapons:

No Specified Melee Weapon
If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon.

Wouldn't this be a catch all to say that if you're fighting barehanded you still count as having a close combat weapon for purposes of striking at your unmodified initiative? Such as, I don't want to use my axe at I1, I'm just going to barehanded strangle you at I4.
Or does the fact that a model has now added a melee weapon negate this catch all?

 deviantduck wrote:
What about this portion in the weapons section under close combat weapons:

No Specified Melee Weapon
If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon.

Wouldn't this be a catch all to say that if you're fighting barehanded you still count as having a close combat weapon for purposes of striking at your unmodified initiative? Such as, I don't want to use my axe at I1, I'm just going to barehanded strangle you at I4.
Or does the fact that a model has now added a melee weapon negate this catch all?

It says right in the rule that you only get a generic CCW if you don't have any melee weapons. If you have a Power Axe then you have a melee weapon and as such don't get a generic CCW

Except the power axe is optional wargear. Default is chainsword and bolt pistol. Remove those two, and you have no melee weapons. So bare hands(1 CCW which does not count toward bonus attacks for multiple weapons). Add in the power axe and your barehand CCW is gone?

To me, you have Barehands, Chainsword, Bolt Pistol off the start, but barehands doesn't apply toward bonus attacks for multiple weapons.

Well no. Base, you either have no specific CCW in your profile, hence barehand CC, or if your profile says you have a chainsword, well you don't fight (and can't fight) with barehand anymore.

If you buy an EXTRA Power Axe, well you can choose power axe or chainsword.

If you REPLACE the chainsword with the Power Axe, well you can only fight with the Power Axe, same as when you only had a Chainsword.

I am curious,
What Rule in previous editions allowed you to nominate 'no weapon' in Combat?

Deviantduck,
Doesn't matter if the weapon is purchased as an optional upgrade or not, the Rule about granting a Close Combat Weapon is very specific and it would be illegal to apply this Rule outside of the given perimeters.

Keep in mind that the Rules do not follow common sense, we do not have the ability to turn a Narrative reasoning into a Rule simply because it makes sense to us... well, not without opponent consent and the Most Important Rule. You are also clouding the issue by stating that Close Combat Weapons represent 'bare hands' and that they should always be present on every model that has hands. Not only would this lead to some very unusual things from a Narrative perspective, but the description of Close Combat Weapons has never included 'bare hands,' the entry on Close Combat Weapons specifies that they represent impromptu weapons, clubs, maces, knives and other primitive weapons. Giving Close Combat Weapons to a Model without a Melee Weapon doesn't mean it is fighting 'barehanded,' the Model is more likely using it's shooting weapon as a Club. Even in cases of Models with no War-gear at all, spawns for example, it is still using primitive weapons that just happen to be naturally graphed into their bodies.

Narrative Wise:
Do you think a Guardsman, armed with nothing but a fist, should be able to ever wound a Terminator?

Common sense and two decades of precedent in 40K and FB says a model always has the ability to make "hand weapon" attacks unless it has a WS or A stat of 0 or is missing one of those two stats entirely. These attacks represent the use of headbutting, kicks, teeth, claws, the stock of a gun, a pocketknife, whatever. A generic CC weapon like a chainsword or choppa does nothing at all on its own. It doesn't "give" you the ability to make CC attacks; your model already has that ability because it has the WS and A stats.

However, in order to get an additional attack (the A stat on your profile +1) then you must have two explicitly named close combat weapons. This is the only practical reason for noting that a model has a sword, chainsword or choppa in the rules; otherwise it would just be a meaningless cosmetic enhancement. Without the extra pistol/ccw a model with a choppa or chainsword is exactly the same as a model with nothing (since there is no parrying in 40k.)

Even if a hyper-specific reading of RAW enables you to say that models can't choose to attack with "hand weapons" instead of power fists, this reading reflects a mistake in writing that runs contrary to a rule that has been a basic element of GW's systems for over twenty years. Obviously a terminator can choose to bash something with his head or the stock of his storm bolter if it takes too long to swing his power fist.

 deviantduck wrote:
Except the power axe is optional wargear.

It doesn't matter. Once the model "has" the weapon he loses the default ccw. The default CCW is not "bare hands", he is treated as having a melee item in his wargear, which is replaced by the better weapon.

Haruspex wrote:
Even if a hyper-specific reading of RAW enables you to say that models can't choose to attack with "hand weapons" instead of power fists, this reading reflects a mistake in writing that runs contrary to a rule that has been a basic element of GW's systems for over twenty years. .

This is not actually the case.

Some previous editions allowed you to ignore your CCW and hit with your fist instead. Some (at least 5th, IIRC) specified that your attacks were made with the weapon's stats and gave no option to 'turn it off'.


The current edition gives you no option to attack with anything other than your weapon if you only have the one.

1) You are allowed to choose which close combat weapon you attack with if you have more than one.

2) A wolf lord starts out with a bolt pistol and a chainsword.

3) He must swap one of his weapons for a storm shield.

4) He must swap the other weapon for the Black Death (the axe you mentioned).

5) The only "weapon" he can attack with is the axe (the shield doesn't have a weapon profile), so he doesn't have the choice "not" to attack with the axe.

6) If he still had the pistol he could choose to use it as his "melee" weapon and attack at I4 rending, but with the shield this option is effectively removed.

 NightHowler wrote:
1) You are allowed to choose which close combat weapon you attack with if you have more than one.

2) A wolf lord starts out with a bolt pistol and a chainsword.

3) He must swap one of his weapons for a storm shield.

4) He must swap the other weapon for the Black Death (the axe you mentioned).

5) The only "weapon" he can attack with is the axe (the shield doesn't have a weapon profile), so he doesn't have the choice "not" to attack with the axe.

6) If he still had the pistol he could choose to use it as his "melee" weapon and attack at I4 rending, but with the shield this option is effectively removed.

w/r/t 5) In the Space Wolf Codex (p. 47) the Storm Shield is listed under Melee Weapons. This tracks with its special rule that you cannot get the bonus attack for having a 2nd CCW.

BK

Doesn't matter, it isn't a Melee weapon.