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As everyone knows, CSM has lots of problems, more than any one thread could contain. One problem in particular is that Chaos Space Marines don't compare well with either Chaos Cultists or Cult units as troops. This thread is about what can be done to improve Chaos Marines and give people an incentive to field them.

First, a look at the pros of the unit:

1. Cheap. Chaos Marines are the cheapest true MEQ at 13 points, and come with all the standard marine wargear.
2. Flexible. Unlike loyalist marines, Chaos can take a special weapon at 5 and a heavy weapon or second special at 10.
3. Lots of options. Chaos Marines can take CCWs, Marks, and Icons in addition to their weapons, or swap for pistol and CCW. The Champion can take a combi-weapon and/or melee weapon.
4. Can be fielded in large numbers. 285 points gets you 20 fearless MEQ bodies in a single squad.
5. Decent statline. While standard by MEQ standards, with CCWs and the right upgrades they can hold their own in an assault, which is where this codex wants them to be.
6. Can take a Chaos Rhino as a dedicated transport for added mobility and protection. Chaos Rhinos are better because they can take a combi-melta and Havoc Launcher while being cheaper and having more transport capacity than a Razorback.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't be the CSM codex we have if the unit didn't have some significant downsides:

1. Lack of leadership. No ATSKNF hurts them significantly. Ld9 on the Champ helps slightly, but they have to buy an expensive Icon to get Fearless.
2. After upgrades (CCW, marks, icons, weapons) Chaos Marines are much more expensive than loyalist marines.
3. Limited weapon options. Loyalists get heavy flamers, grav guns, multi-meltas, and plasma cannons. All Chaos gets is the autocannon.
4. Inconsistent options. Not all marks are created equal (Nurgle being the best, Tzeentch worst, and Khorne and Slaanesh in between), and the icons are as expensive as chapter banners.
5. No chapter tactics. Chaos has to pay for Veterans of the Long War, which is of extremely dubious use. Champion of Chaos only applies in challenges with the Champion.
6. Due to power creep, the MEQ statline isn't all it's cracked up to be anymore.
7. Lack of overall synergy with the army. Cultists camp objectives better, and Cult troops are tougher, Fearless, and put out more dakka and choppa.

This is especially imperative as if GW's design philosophy continues, Cult units will no longer be troops in the next CSM codex (outside of formations). With this in mind, I have some ideas about how ti improve/fix Chaos Marines.

First, give them their extra CCW for free. CSM is an assault army, and this would make Chaos Marines more threatening in CC and save points on the unit.
Second, give them an equivalent of Chapter Tactics. Free VotLW as universal hatred would make for a useful chapter tactic. This would also open up the option for specific Legion and Renegade tactics.
Third, change Champion of Chaos. Instead of making it apply only to challenges, use it to fix the leadership problem. Maybe allow them to re-roll morale, fear, and pinning as long as the champion is alive.
Fourth, give them more weapon options. I can understand no grav guns, but only the autocannon? I would support giving them at least the heavy flamer or multi-melta or plasma cannon. Cheaper Heavy Bolter too, just because it needs something going for it.
Fifth, reform the Marks and Icons. Icons are too expensive; either make them cheaper, or incorporate them into some sort of formation bonus. Marks need a serious overhaul. I vote for either standardizing them with the Daemon abilities, or making them unique to each unit. A formation/detachment where they are free wouldn't hurt either.

Any feedback, comments, or additional suggestions are greatly appreciated.

The Champion of Chaos also needs to be changed because Marine Sergeants totally suck.

I'd like to see something like this:

Chaos Space Marines - 70 points
Chaos Marine - WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 LD8 SV3+
Aspiring Champion - WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 LD9 SV3+

Unit Composition:
4 Chaos Marines
1 Aspiring Champion

Wargear:
Bolter
Bolt Pistol
Power Armor
Frag & Krak Grenades

Special Rules:
Chaos Space Marine
Mark of Chaos


Chaos Space Marine: Test for Fear at LD10, Hatred: Imperium
Mark of Chaos: When this unit is deployed, you must give it one of the following allegiances of Chaos:

Khorne-Unit has Preferred Enemy and is Fearless in close combat.
Tzeentch: Unit gets Brotherhood of Sorcerers
Nurgle: Unit gets +1 Toughness, and rerolls failed Fear and Pinning tests.
Slaanesh: Unit gets +1 Initiative and is Stubborn

Options:
May take up to 15 additional Chaos Marines: 14 points/model
For every 5 models, one Chaos Marine may take a Special Weapon
For every 10 models, one Chaos Marine may take a Heavy Weapon

Chaos Champion may take up to 2 Gifts of Mutation: 5 pts each

@Quintinius: I like some of your ideas, but I think others are misguided.

Making CSM 14 points base for +1 WS on the champion and no other upgrades is not a good idea in my opinion. If, like I was saying, they got their extra CCW for free I could get behind it.

The "Chaos Space Marine" rule just seems like a much weaker version of Chapter Tactics to me.

None of the mark ideas really help out Chaos Marines, and are just as imbalanced as the current ones. Nurgle is still better than all else, Khorne is schizophrenic, Slaanesh mediocre, and Tzeentch useless unless the Champion can take psychic levels. Like I said, I would either make them the same as the Daemon marks or something like the following:

Mark of Khorne: Unit gains Counter-Attack and Furious Charge
Mark of Slaanesh: Unit gains +1 Initiative and Fleet
Mark of Tzeentch: Unit re-rolls saving throws of 1
Mark of Nurgle: Unit gains stealth.

The Chaos Boon Table is one of the few enjoyable things about CSM, and most of the bonuses are worth at least 10 points.

I do, however, like the ability to take more special and heavy weapons at 15 and 20 models in the unit.

I think Nurgle giving stealth is kind of out of character and not all that useful. Nurgle is all about tough zombies and plagues, stealth seems more like something a Slaanesh or Tzeentch unit might have.

I'm mostly hoping that the Chaos Boon table is entirely reworked when the new codex comes out. Right now it is just too random (kind of the point though I suppose) and unreliable. It would be cool if there were specific branches or God-tied in tables to roll on. Maybe a CC table for Khorne, Sorc table to Tzeenth, etc.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
@Quintinius: I like some of your ideas, but I think others are misguided.

Making CSM 14 points base for +1 WS on the champion and no other upgrades is not a good idea in my opinion. If, like I was saying, they got their extra CCW for free I could get behind it.

The "Chaos Space Marine" rule just seems like a much weaker version of Chapter Tactics to me.

It is a weaker version of Chapter Tactics, except that you also have access to the Mark of Chaos rule, which is right below it.

I've always believed that units should start out as basic as possible and then let players choose everything else from there. CCW's would likely be 1 point per model, much like how it is for Grey Hunters.

None of the mark ideas really help out Chaos Marines, and are just as imbalanced as the current ones. Nurgle is still better than all else, Khorne is schizophrenic, Slaanesh mediocre, and Tzeentch useless unless the Champion can take psychic levels. Like I said, I would either make them the same as the Daemon marks or something like the following:

Khorne is schizophrenic? I got the idea of PE: All from another Chaos Marine thread and have liked it ever since. It allows them to reroll 1's to hit and to wound, which is extremely powerful. Fearless in combat isn't bad, it just encourages you to fight in CC for LD protection.

Nurgle's +1 T is unfortunately always going to be good, though I think the Stealth idea is a much better fix.

Tzeentch isn't useless, the BoS rule means that the unit is a level 1 Psyker. In terms of powers, I'd say Tzeentch, Divination, and Telepathy would be allowed.

Mark of Khorne: Unit gains Counter-Attack and Furious Charge
Mark of Slaanesh: Unit gains +1 Initiative and Fleet
Mark of Tzeentch: Unit re-rolls saving throws of 1
Mark of Nurgle: Unit gains stealth.

Talk about unbalanced, you just made the Mark of Khorne gakky again and Mark of Tzeentch is now the hyper overpowered one. How much would the the mark of tzeentch cost for Terminators? Also I seriously fail to see how +1 Initiative and Stubborn is "mediocre" when you give Slaanesh +1 Initiative and Fleet.

The Chaos Boon Table is one of the few enjoyable things about CSM, and most of the bonuses are worth at least 10 points.

Worth 10+ points...if you could choose them.

I do, however, like the ability to take more special and heavy weapons at 15 and 20 models in the unit.

It's something I'm surprised that GW hasn't caught onto yet. It would sell a lot more special and heavy weapon guys.

Maybe the Mark of Khorne can grant Furious Charge, Rage, and Adamantium Will?

I would like to see a chaosy version of atsknf. Some type of warp changed ammo or weapons like the ectoplasma cannon. Maybe a gun version or assault version. Get rid of the champion tax or make them worth it. 1 attack and 1 leadership better shouldn't cost 10 pts. Maybe 1+ ws or bs. Or stubborn.

If csm are just bad space marines then why can't they have the same gear and vehicles. Did the csm use all the are drop pods before they went into the eye of terror.

If they are suppose to be different then let's make them different.
Give them different Stat lines, or maybe show there wear with better ws and bs but a 4+ save.

Idk enough ranting and hopeful thinking.

Make them 12 points. THEN you'd have a reason to use them over Plague Marines. Plague Marines currently cost less to lug around Special Weapons. Let that sink in.

I feel that one of the best things to do to useless/overpowered units in 40k is to increase or decrease their points. Obviously more could be done, but I think if anything, points is something.

Like Goat said above, I really hope they continue a theme with making CSM more diverse from standard SM (not just spikes and skull bits). Ectoplasma Cannons and Autocannons are great because they have no loyalist equivalent. Give CSM more unique upgrades and weapons that reflect their time in the warp.

And points-wise, yeah, it would be easiest to just drop a few points per unit. Though that would just leave the CSM marines as cheaper/worse mirrors of loyalist marines. Not really much flavor there.

 clamclaw wrote:
Like Goat said above, I really hope they continue a theme with making CSM more diverse from standard SM (not just spikes and skull bits). Ectoplasma Cannons and Autocannons are great because they have no loyalist equivalent. Give CSM more unique upgrades and weapons that reflect their time in the warp.

And points-wise, yeah, it would be easiest to just drop a few points per unit. Though that would just leave the CSM marines as cheaper/worse mirrors of loyalist marines. Not really much flavor there.

Yeah, I suppose that's true.

Oh. Maybe have a table similar to the Boon table, but you roll on the table for each unit and the whole unit gets the bonus for the game?
That'd be cool.

" No ATSKNF hurts them significantly."

No it doesn't.

"2. After upgrades (CCW, marks, icons, weapons) Chaos Marines are much more expensive than loyalist marines.
3. Limited weapon options. Loyalists get heavy flamers, grav guns, multi-meltas, and plasma cannons. All Chaos gets is the autocannon.
4. Inconsistent options. Not all marks are created equal (Nurgle being the best, Tzeentch worst, and Khorne and Slaanesh in between), and the icons are as expensive as chapter banners.
5. No chapter tactics. Chaos has to pay for Veterans of the Long War, which is of extremely dubious use. Champion of Chaos only applies in challenges with the Champion.
6. Due to power creep, the MEQ statline isn't all it's cracked up to be anymore.
7. Lack of overall synergy with the army. Cultists camp objectives better, and Cult troops are tougher, Fearless, and put out more dakka and choppa. "

These are all true, however. Although frequently, neither BA nor SW really have chapter tactics either. BA die before they can assault and Xenos never assault SW.

Reduce cost of marines to 11ppm by taking away Frag and Krak grenades. One or more models can buy 1 for 1ppm. Seriously, I only ever get to use 1 or 2 frag grenadez if I ever get them to assault thru cover. I only ever get to use 1 krak grenade on a vehicle.

As long as they have a Champion, they get stubborn.

throw out the boon table. give incremental rewards thats easy to remember.

Allow Chaos Marines to purchase mounts according to the marks they take. Jet bike Marines riding disks of tzeentch! Not sure about nurgle.

but as I have said before. To really make Chaos Marines good, you gotta give them the eldar treatment. Allow any number of them to swap their bolt gun for a special or heavy gun. I wish we can get scat lasers...

Martel732 wrote:
" No ATSKNF hurts them significantly."

No it doesn't.

"2. After upgrades (CCW, marks, icons, weapons) Chaos Marines are much more expensive than loyalist marines.
3. Limited weapon options. Loyalists get heavy flamers, grav guns, multi-meltas, and plasma cannons. All Chaos gets is the autocannon.
4. Inconsistent options. Not all marks are created equal (Nurgle being the best, Tzeentch worst, and Khorne and Slaanesh in between), and the icons are as expensive as chapter banners.
5. No chapter tactics. Chaos has to pay for Veterans of the Long War, which is of extremely dubious use. Champion of Chaos only applies in challenges with the Champion.
6. Due to power creep, the MEQ statline isn't all it's cracked up to be anymore.
7. Lack of overall synergy with the army. Cultists camp objectives better, and Cult troops are tougher, Fearless, and put out more dakka and choppa. "

These are all true, however. Although frequently, neither BA nor SW really have chapter tactics either. BA die before they can assault and Xenos never assault SW.

I think all of them are untrue, not just number one. #3 especially gets me. "Lack of options" isn't anything. After you take the weapon, having "options" doesn't help on the table. Do you think fewer options are worse than more options? What if your only upgrade option were 36" s9 ap1 assault 3? If GW released an option to take a grot blasta instead, would that squad be better somehow? How about if you take the grot blasta, does it having been a choice to take the grot blasta make it more powerful than if you were forced to take the grot blasta, and didn't have anothe choice?

It's the same as with marks and icons. If you get an ectoplasm blaster that is really good, you're probably making the one of the weapons (flamer?) as irrelevant as the mark of tzeentch.

The top two problems with basic chaos marines are that they are slow and that they don't have good range. Those don't really appear on the list though.

I actually really like the PE thing from above. I also like the ccw for free. Like former grey hunters, rip. Thing is those don't solve the issues but they would be welcome with some other adjustments.

Reducing cost is unnecessary they are already the cheapest marine around with flexibility rivaling SWs so lets work from that.
For starters just get rid of forced challenges and randumb charts and lose the champ tax. Now CSM are 130 for a full squad with dual specials if they like.

Then for khornes sakes give them viable assault transports. They are an assault based army right? Wheres khornes open topped rhinos full of raging psychopaths screaming down on you? A 15 pt upgrade to turn a vehicle fast and open topped would be pure f*ucking gold to them. CSM troops suck not because of cost but because they are assault based in a shooting game with no delivery system worth a damn. Then theres the fact that they take 2 specials but no pods. Lame. Let rhino rush return but only for chaos and maybe consider dirty cheap land raiders.. something worthwhile like just a chassis with a hades autocannon 160 pts.

Hell give em drop pods too that don't cost 100 pts.

And then give them GRAV. wtf is gerlimans kids doing with it anyway? CSM should be the only ones to have that tech and I don't even play them. Cmon gw.

Lastly make csm fearless vs emperium forces in assault as suggested above. Not just marked units who can remain always fearless. Again they are an assault army yet they must win every encounter with marines otherwise they are potentially swept. Not cool.

Theres obviously much more but the coffee's still sinking in.

Filch wrote:Reduce cost of marines to 11ppm by taking away Frag and Krak grenades. One or more models can buy 1 for 1ppm. Seriously, I only ever get to use 1 or 2 frag grenadez if I ever get them to assault thru cover. I only ever get to use 1 krak grenade on a vehicle.

As long as they have a Champion, they get stubborn.

throw out the boon table. give incremental rewards thats easy to remember.

Allow Chaos Marines to purchase mounts according to the marks they take. Jet bike Marines riding disks of tzeentch! Not sure about nurgle.

but as I have said before. To really make Chaos Marines good, you gotta give them the eldar treatment. Allow any number of them to swap their bolt gun for a special or heavy gun. I wish we can get scat lasers...

I don't think that reducing the base cost of Chaos Marines is a good thing; they are already the cheapest MEQ around, so reducing points won't help in any significant way. Frag and Krak greandes are underrated, as it means that they can assault through cover and hurt vehicles and MC in assaults.

I do like the idea of the champion giving them stubborn as long as he's alive though, as well as replacing the boon table with an incremental reward system.

Do you really want to give the army the Eldar treatment? After all there can be only one completely OP army out there...

dominuschao wrote:I actually really like the PE thing from above. I also like the ccw for free. Like former grey hunters, rip. Thing is those don't solve the issues but they would be welcome with some other adjustments.

Reducing cost is unnecessary they are already the cheapest marine around with flexibility rivaling SWs so lets work from that.
For starters just get rid of forced challenges and randumb charts and lose the champ tax. Now CSM are 130 for a full squad with dual specials if they like.

Then for khornes sakes give them viable assault transports. They are an assault based army right? Wheres khornes open topped rhinos full of raging psychopaths screaming down on you? A 15 pt upgrade to turn a vehicle fast and open topped would be pure f*ucking gold to them. CSM troops suck not because of cost but because they are assault based in a shooting game with no delivery system worth a damn. Then theres the fact that they take 2 specials but no pods. Lame. Let rhino rush return but only for chaos and maybe consider dirty cheap land raiders.. something worthwhile like just a chassis with a hades autocannon 160 pts.

Hell give em drop pods too that don't cost 100 pts.

And then give them GRAV. wtf is gerlimans kids doing with it anyway? CSM should be the only ones to have that tech and I don't even play them. Cmon gw.

Lastly make csm fearless vs emperium forces in assault as suggested above. Not just marked units who can remain always fearless. Again they are an assault army yet they must win every encounter with marines otherwise they are potentially swept. Not cool.

Theres obviously much more but the coffee's still sinking in.

After further consideration, I do think I can get behind the PE rule for Mark of Khorne, but in a more limited fashion i.e. preferred enemy against one faction from your opponent's detachment. Mark of Nurgle can give +1 Toughness for Chaos Marines; I would make the marks have different effects for different units so that Mark of Nurgle isn't universally better than the other marks. Mark of Tzeentch can give Stealth, and Mark of Slaanesh can give +1 Initiative and re-rolls to run moves.

Assault transports are another issue, but I would support some sort of upgrade to Rhinos that let units assault after disembarking from them. A 200 point Land Raider would also work well.

Champion of Chaos is an important rule, but I do agree that forced challenges are stupid. Maybe Hatred if they choose to challenge?

Grav weapons are supposed to be very rare, even for the Imperium. Besides, the loyalists need some toys to themselves. I would give Chaos a special ectoplasma cannon (S8 AP2), as well as the option to take a heavy flamer or multi-melta as a second weapon at 10 models.

Chaos Marines do need an option to be fearless for less than the cost of a chapter banner. I was thinking it could be incorporated into a formation bonus, or making more HQ characters confer fearless.

PE against armies of the emperium would be perfect then.

Hatred when choosing to challenge would be fluffy and hardly game breaking. I like it as a 'army doesn't pay for it' type of upgrade.

Ya but grav isn't rare at all so it's really just gimping their counterpart unless they have some kind of equal footing. Viable assault transports would be a start. Some sort of much better ecto cannon could work too. It would need to be assault and incredibly good (almost just insert grav stats here).

Formation bonus would be cool, HQs I believe are all fearless iirc but either way that wouldn't be par with atsknf.

So heres a thought, when fighting against models from CSM faction models from AotE LOSE atsknf.
Everyone should be perfectly ok with that since "it doesn't even matter" is what I'm hearing lately.. even ground and all that. Call it 'enemy within' or whatever and role it into the PE thing. All of a sudden fearless might be worth a toss.

 Filch wrote:
Reduce cost of marines to 11ppm by taking away Frag and Krak grenades. One or more models can buy 1 for 1ppm. Seriously, I only ever get to use 1 or 2 frag grenadez if I ever get them to assault thru cover. I only ever get to use 1 krak grenade on a vehicle.

As long as they have a Champion, they get stubborn.

throw out the boon table. give incremental rewards thats easy to remember.

Allow Chaos Marines to purchase mounts according to the marks they take. Jet bike Marines riding disks of tzeentch! Not sure about nurgle.

but as I have said before. To really make Chaos Marines good, you gotta give them the eldar treatment. Allow any number of them to swap their bolt gun for a special or heavy gun. I wish we can get scat lasers...

The Nurgle version would be a blight drone. That said, turning all marines into bikers and all bikers into scatterbikes is not something I would want to see or play against. Scatterbikes are poorly designed (at least until updated books put them at the bottom of the power curve somehow), and emulating poor, bland design doesn't exactly make for a better game. :T

Personally, I just want to see formation or detachment rules that let you reflect various themes better. Improving the marks would be great, but what I'm really after is the ability to feel like I'm playing a given legion/warband, and the standard chaos marine isn't necessarily central to that. Fixing chaos marines certainly isn't a bad thing, but it also doesn't make it easier for me to represent Alpha Legion, and it definitely doesn't let me run a 1k Sons army that isn't meh.

Not too long ago, someone posted a set of upgrades that could be taken (with points) by aspiring champions. To me, this pretty much "fixed" CSM by differentiating them from loyalists, putting an emphasis on a cool character, and letting you customize your champion/unit to better represent your army's style. This still doesn't necessarily let me play 1k sons or Alpha Legion, but it was a nice generic system that made chaos marine units more desirable without simply buffing them.

I'm not a fan of taking grenades off of marines because the reasoning behind doing so always seems to be, "I don't want to pay for them/I never use them." Which is understandable, but marines really should have grenades, and saving a point per guy by not taking them feels like an attempt at min-maxing your points. I'm biased on this point, but there it is.