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Given the destabilised human web way, and the fact a weak point ties to eldar network infested by deamons and warp eneties, could a craft world or eldar safely drop into system or be forced say near Pluto and then have a meat grinder to Terra, constant attack to the rear guard and then ultimate stalingrad taking the palace by ground attack.

Even then, the eternity gate is guarded by two titans, narrower and the custodius will fight to the very last drop of blood.

Yet alone summoning the billions strong human hoard to battle, sisters, space marines, admech and there relics, the arc mechanics firing black holes at enemies, grey knights, and whatever secrets kept waiting for any attacker.

Thunder regiment in stasis, close combat nightmare.

could a craft world or eldar safely drop into system or be forced say near Pluto and then have a meat grinder to Terra, constant attack to the rear guard and then ultimate stalingrad taking the palace by ground attack.

Absolutely 0.00% chance.
Thats a 0 by the way.

Just a note when people say things like "Get by Mars, or Drop in by pluto and make a crawl to earth."

The planets are very, very rarely in a long chain from the Sun straight out to the outer planets. Alignments of 3-4 planets is uncommon.

Mars may have thousands of guns/torpedoes and whatnot and be a fortress, but if it's on the opposite side of the Sun from Earth, it will not have LOS to Earth.

Here's a graphic that gives you the position of the planets today:
http://www.theplanetstoday.com/

So "getting past Mars" right now would consist of simply dropping in on the same side of the solar system as Earth is right now. Bam. Past Mars.

You can pretty much assume that the Oort Cloud is an unending chain of battlestations, automated missile platforms, kinetic-kill weapons, fusion beams, DAOT-relics that fire star-ending death-rays, minefields and stand-by assault teams with readied boarding craft to board and kill/capture unauthorized in the system's space-lanes.

Not to mention the fact that an in-system Warp Jump can move from one side of the sun to the other in about a minute.

You can pretty much assume that the Oort Cloud is an unending chain of battlestations, automated missile platforms, kinetic-kill weapons, fusion beams, DAOT-relics that fire star-ending death-rays, minefields and stand-by assault teams with readied boarding craft to board and kill/capture unauthorized in the system's space-lanes.

Fluff source though Psi?

Not to mention the fact that an in-system Warp Jump can move from one side of the sun to the other in about a minute.

Its possible that close to Terra, the astronomicon is so bright and powerful, theres no chance of a Sol system jump. You'd end up at alpha centurai

Any and every time any mention of the Sol system is made, it is commented that it is the "most heavily defended section of Imperial Space".

We've already seen Ramiles-class stations in other systems, we know there's an entire battlefleet dedicated to this *one* system, and have had the planets described in enough detail to know that even the gas giants are bristling with gun-platforms and armed space-stations.

When you've got a ring of asteroids that separate the inner and outer planets, it acts as a really good bulwark against invaders from outside the system. Stack automated defenses, LP/OPs, manned stations, gunships and destroyers, fast-attack craft that can blitz in, deliver a payload of melta-torps and then burn back into the cover of the asteroids... well, it's only a natural expectation for the Imperium.

And it's as likely possible that such proximity to the Astronomican permits precision jumps not possible anywhere else in the galaxy.

A good genestealer cult could do a lot of damate i guess.

Any and every time any mention of the Sol system is made, it is commented that it is the "most heavily defended section of Imperial Space".

No doubt

But I've never read of the oort cloud having defences, just trying to keep to fluff etc.

And it's as likely possible that such proximity to the Astronomican permits precision jumps not possible anywhere else in the galaxy.

I'd wager otherwise perhaps due to the defences of Sol to prevent such an act - Im sure Titant/Mars etc have some seriously anti-jump capability to stop just such an act. But thats conjecture.

Why wouldn't you arm a bunch of giant rocks drifting around in space? Especially when they're just sitting there, like a castle balustrade? Even more especially when you are the Imperium of Man, who spend a not-insignificant portion of your yearly budget on coming up with new and exciting ways to make other things stop living?

Why wouldn't you arm a bunch of giant rocks drifting around in space? Especially when they're just sitting there, like a castle balustrade? Even more especially when you are the Imperium of Man, who spend a not-insignificant portion of your yearly budget on coming up with new and exciting ways to make other things stop living?

You wouldnt !

But its extrapolation

Sols defences are very well documented fluff wise, oort aint in it :p

Thank for all the input.

Lendys wrote:
Just a note when people say things like "Get by Mars, or Drop in by pluto and make a crawl to earth."

The planets are very, very rarely in a long chain from the Sun straight out to the outer planets. Alignments of 3-4 planets is uncommon.

Mars may have thousands of guns/torpedoes and whatnot and be a fortress, but if it's on the opposite side of the Sun from Earth, it will not have LOS to Earth.

Here's a graphic that gives you the position of the planets today:
http://www.theplanetstoday.com/

So "getting past Mars" right now would consist of simply dropping in on the same side of the solar system as Earth is right now. Bam. Past Mars.

It wouldn't need line of sight. All they need is precise co-ordinates and those guns and torpedoes could be fired into orbit around the sun to hit the invading fleet.

The Necrons have a device that can let them supernova the Sun if they want.

Anyone who captures it can do the same.

is there anywhere that gives the numbers of custodes obviously their not codex compliant but to defend such a large built-up area as the palace from up-to and including legion attack wouldn't they have to be just as big even taking massive casualty's during the heresy they've had 10k years to rebuild

At least a thousand of them, possibly far more, as they were once a Legion. However, as they are not Space Marines, and are not a military body, they are not bound by the strictures of the Codex Astartes (being that they aren't Astartes).

Necrons: "Hey Jenkins, come into the Celestial Orrery with me real quick. The Crypteks are done running their numbers and we have the green light. Just gotta go ahead and wipe out the Sol system, then we can continue our card game."

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
Necrons: "Hey Jenkins, come into the Celestial Orrery with me real quick. The Crypteks are done running their numbers and we have the green light. Just gotta go ahead and wipe out the Sol system, then we can continue our card game."

Exactly!

The Necrons of the Celestial Orrery are completely apart from anybody else. The Codex passage made it clear that they do not target stars for military purposes. Additionally how it works is completely unknown. At the very least some sort of signal would have to be sent. Or an actual ship or device would have to do the deed. Either way it's not certain that it would be impossible to intercept. Aside from that the time period is completely vague. "Millennia before it's time", for stars, spans billions of years. The Celestial Orrery is so vaguely described that it really has no place in these sorts of discussions.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
The Necrons of the Celestial Orrery are completely apart from anybody else. The Codex passage made it clear that they do not target stars for military purposes. Additionally how it works is completely unknown. At the very least some sort of signal would have to be sent. Or an actual ship or device would have to do the deed. Either way it's not certain that it would be impossible to intercept. Aside from that the time period is completely vague. "Millennia before it's time", for stars, spans billions of years. The Celestial Orrery is so vaguely described that it really has no place in these sorts of discussions.

The point is, it could end Terra if a Necron in control of the Orrery willed it. You could definitely argue all kinds of potential criteria that magically prevent it from destroying what the target is, but the fluff pretty much supports it as an omnipotent weapon of mass destruction with a galactic reach. Sure the Oruscar Royals see themselves as 'gardeners', but let's say Angry Necron Royal #1176 woke up, had a vastly superior military, took Oruscar by force, the Orrery was intact, and he wanted to ruin Sol - bye bye.

Despite going against the spirit of the thread theorizing about ground wars/space battles/infiltration, it exists in the fluff and that's it. Sorry.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:


The point is, it could end Terra if a Necron in control of the Orrery willed it. You could definitely argue all kinds of potential criteria that magically prevent it from destroying what the target is, but the fluff pretty much supports it as an omnipotent weapon of mass destruction.

Despite going against the spirit of the thread theorizing about ground wars/space battles/infiltration, it exists in the fluff and that's it. Sorry.

If a person in control of the Orrery willed it they could cause the sun to go supernova millennia before it's time. That's all we know. Anything else is supposition. Including the idea that Terra would be destroyed.

Referring to the OP here-the most they would probably be able to do would be to hold off an ork Waaaaaaaaaagh! led by Ghazzy.

But judging from the look of page 11 in the ork codex (7th edition), even Waaaaaaaaaagh! Wazdakka bypassed Terra.

So I highly doubt that the orks would go very close to Terra.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:


The point is, it could end Terra if a Necron in control of the Orrery willed it. You could definitely argue all kinds of potential criteria that magically prevent it from destroying what the target is, but the fluff pretty much supports it as an omnipotent weapon of mass destruction.

Despite going against the spirit of the thread theorizing about ground wars/space battles/infiltration, it exists in the fluff and that's it. Sorry.

If a person in control of the Orrery willed it they could cause the sun to go supernova millennia before it's time. That's all we know. Anything else is supposition. Including the idea that Terra would be destroyed.

Do you think that the Emperor would have had a defence from that?
Just theorising.

Terra's defenses are still pretty formidable, in the years after the Battle of Terra the whole planet got militarized from the trauma of the Chaos invasion.

You got Battlefleet Solar, Custodes, Sororitas, Arbites, Inquisition, Titans, and probably Guard permanently stationed there at all times. Plus if Terra comes under any sort of threat every Space Marine chapter in 10,000 light years will come running.

 Harley Quinn wrote:

Do you think that the Emperor would have had a defence from that?
Just theorising.

From the sun going supernova? Possibly. Between the vast number of Psykers getting sent there daily (and having their powers directed\absorbed\used\whatever), Martian technology and the shields of the Emperor's palace itself I figure there's a good chance the Imperial Palace itself would survive intact even if the rest of the planet was seared away. A little similar to how the Rock came to be.

Well there's a few caveats.

One, our sun can't go supernova.
Two, the forces of a supernova are far, far, far in excess of what the Rock was subjected to (unstable tectonics + pressure from warp storm or something)
Three, for all its hyperbole, we've never seen a psyker deal with THAT level of power. Though if anyone could do it, it'd be the Emprah.

Also, can we not just hold hands and call each other friends?
No?

 dekinrie wrote:
is there anywhere that gives the numbers of custodes obviously their not codex compliant but to defend such a large built-up area as the palace from up-to and including legion attack wouldn't they have to be just as big even taking massive casualty's during the heresy they've had 10k years to rebuild

They aren't even Astartes, even if they were Codex-compliant, they could still have more than 10 million warriors, as the Codex limits Astartes, not Custodes (who are basically in that niche between Primarch and Space Marine, physiologically).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 Harley Quinn wrote:
As I don't really play any imperial army and haven't really read up on it, what are the defensive capabilities?
Assume that all systems/planets around Terra/Earth have been wiped clean and it was just the planet itself. No Imperial Navy there.
I think I've heard of Custodes? I'm sorry. I know a lot of you are cringing right now. Haha.
Say that the ultimate goal was to finish off the Emperor. I.e. Reach the Golden Throne.

Do you think that the entirety of Commoragh could?
1 Craftworld?, 2? 3? Or how many?
An entire Ork waaagh led by Ghazghkull Thraka?
A whole Tyranids Hive Fleet?
Or any other force you can think of?

Discuss!

DE have attacked Mars before and if they somehow got united(they wont) and somehow thought that attacking Terra would serve them(it wouldnt) they could easily take Terra
Craftworlds come in different sizes but a few of them could take Terra provided it was just terra and the in place defenses.
A large enough Waaaagh can topple anything.
A hive fleet could conquer anything.

Define "easily"
True
No. None of the known Hive Fleets have been even close to the strength necessary to take on the Sol System's defenses (Ultramar's defenses are maybe half that of Sol, even with external augmentation, the Tau don't even come close to a quarter of the might of the Sol system's defenses). Now, it is possible for a Hive Fleet to amass the strength necessary to surmount the defenses around the home system, but it would have to be something like three times the strength of the ones that we've seen so far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:

Why wouldn't you arm a bunch of giant rocks drifting around in space? Especially when they're just sitting there, like a castle balustrade? Even more especially when you are the Imperium of Man, who spend a not-insignificant portion of your yearly budget on coming up with new and exciting ways to make other things stop living?

You wouldnt !

But its extrapolation

Sols defences are very well documented fluff wise, oort aint in it :p

That's like saying "a castle is famous for the strength of its keep, but, its walls are never mentioned. Therefore, it has no walls".

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Necrons who made it to Mars didn't do so through power. They sent two Shroud-class stealth ships. The stealth only held until Titan, in the outer solar system. One of them made it to Mars by sheer dint of rushing past all the defences at near-c, only to be destroyed on the ground.

Five ships, they were not stealth only "light cruisers", and all managed to breach Mars. One touched the ground before being destroyed.

No idea where "two", "stealth", or "near-c" (though that's probably a given, since it's Necron, but that doesn't exactly make the case better for the Imperium or Mechanicum).

That's like saying "a castle is famous for the strength of its keep, but, its walls are never mentioned. Therefore, it has no walls".

Granted but in debates like this, we have to stick to some level of established fluff.
Otherwise why not just say Mercury is one giant orbital cannon that can fire across the Galaxy. Extrapolation is fine but it needs some form of basis.

Ferros wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Necrons who made it to Mars didn't do so through power. They sent two Shroud-class stealth ships. The stealth only held until Titan, in the outer solar system. One of them made it to Mars by sheer dint of rushing past all the defences at near-c, only to be destroyed on the ground.

Five ships, they were not stealth only "light cruisers", and all managed to breach Mars. One touched the ground before being destroyed.

No idea where "two", "stealth", or "near-c" (though that's probably a given, since it's Necron, but that doesn't exactly make the case better for the Imperium or Mechanicum).

They were Shroud-class Light Cruisers. Shrouds are stealth ships;

Battlefleet Gothic Armada page 77 wrote:Special Rules: The Shroud is an especially stealthy vessel. Its hull is a further refinement of the normal Necron design, which is even harder to detect.
As long as it is not crippled a Shroud will never activate orbital mines or grant the enemy bonuses to their Command checks if it is on special orders.
The Shroud’s superior sensors are capable of relaying information gleaned to the rest of the fleet. If a Necron fleet has any uncrippled Shrouds on the
battlefield the whole fleet will get an extra +1 to their Command checks when any enemy vessel is on special orders.

You were right, though, it was five. I can't find the original article, which is really annoying me. >< It had a lot more detail, like the 'detected by Titan' thing.