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Hey..
So, I'll first add that I don't play Space Marines at all or an imperial army really.

Anyway, from a fluff standpoint, aren't SM supposed to be extremely durable in combat? I always hear stories of them holding off hundreds of enemies each and just never dying. I realise that the game and fluff are very different things, but I feel like it should be represented more.
Usually in a game, if I see a tactical squad/assault squad on the board near me, I'm typically not worries about it as 3+ saves become less and less dependable in current 40k.

I think it'd be a good idea to maybe double the points and give all standard marines +1 toughness an +1 wound.
What do you guys think? Yay? Or nay?

Okay so firstly consider that a bonus of +1 in a score represents a huge difference in fluff capability.

Untrained conscripts have BS 2, professional soldiers BS 3. Having BS 4 is literally that same difference again.

A difference of T 3 to T 4 is by definition the difference between the toughness of a baseline human and a Space Marine.

Marines have improved stats from a guardsman almost across the board. The statistical difference between them and a standard professional soldier is massive.

They might seem superficially bland for being the baseline you measure up and down from, but at the end of the day that is in game terms what they are: Average, with other humans being weaker but more numerous, and many factions able to field troops who are equal to marines in some or even most respects.

The thing is, marines do reflect the fluff with their stats - the threats to mankind are just THAT scary.

Also T5 W2 would mean Nurgle bikers would be T7 W2... *shudder*

I think almost every one army basic infantry unit is W1? Having a SM at 1W really contradicts the fluff but... that's the fact

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Also T5 W2 would mean Nurgle bikers would be T7 W2... *shudder*

Not as bad as certain T7, 4W, 3+/5++, MCs as a troops choice
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/Mechanicum/Mechanicum_Troops/CASTELLAX_BATTLE_AUTOMATA.html

Hell no

No.

Dear lord no!

Do you realize how broken it would be for me to be able to field my gladius with 50+ Marines and transports if they were T5 2Ws each?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit. I see you also mentioned making them 28ppm.

They would actually suck if you did that.

Answer is still no.


A better fix would be a rule that treats all weapons fired at them as -1S if it doesn't ignore their armor save.

Free Six up invul save...for when 3+ armor is not enough.

Okay, thanks everyone. Fair enough points.

I submit that the 40K system lacks the granularity needed to model everything they have put into this game.

 Filch wrote:
Free Six up invul save...for when 3+ armor is not enough.

Stop trying to turn Space Marines into Sisters dammit.

I'd be against it for reasons mentioned above... and for 1 more.
If GW ever did this you can be assured that BA would stay T4 W1.

No, the weapons are just too overpowered and kill everything from conscripts to super soldiers far too easily.

It would be great if it worked.

Unfortunately the current state of the game revolves around them being T4 W1.

So sadly not.

Just run the fething movie marines list holy gak man.

I've actually been kicking around ideas regarding ways to boost marines. A few problems with making them T5 with 2 wounds:

* At 28 ppm, you might have relatively tough guys, but also won't have nearly enough firepower coming out of marine squads thus encouraging people to lean on things like thunderfires, centurions, etc. even more heavily.

* Two wounds really aren't that hard to keep track of (I tried it out with some homebrewed Thousand Sons rules), but they do add another thing to keep track of.

*T5 is nice, but you still get blown away on foot by a bunch of the same weapons that make foot marines hard to pull off currently.

So far, I'm leaning towards cooking up a rule set that gives them "plot points" (need a different name) that you gain for doing sufficiently "cool" things (like winning challenges, holding objectives despite overwhelming fire, etc.) You can spend them to get movie marine style saves (rerollable 3+ armor and a 3+ invuln) for the rest of a turn, to boost your killing power for a turn, or to pull off cool chapter and unit specific stunts (like turning Salamander flamers into torrents). In theory, the plot points would be few enough in number that you wouldn't just have your entire army running on god mode all game, but common and potent enough to make marines feel more badass.

Movie Marines also seem like cool rules though, and I'm hoping to run them in some friendly games soon.

There's an argument to be made that spess muhreens shouldn't be treated like special snowflakes who get extra bonuses just because. My response to that is that, in the same way eldar are fast, tau are shooty, and orks are numerous, the marines' "thing" is that they're essential Gary Stues, and I'm okay with that. So long as it's executed in a fair, fun manner.

Hell no, movie marines is only acceptably if you're taking the piss and pretending you're in a movie, they're not meant to be fluffy marines. Stick to T4 and W1

Movie marines are definitely over the top (though they look reasonably well balanced for their points). Still, it seems more satisfying to have a handful of marines that each look badass as they take on ten times their number than to have almost as many marines as guardsmen on the table who die at the drop of a hat.

Ten guardsmen with lasguns can consistently kill a single marine when in rapid fire range. Special and heavy weapons kill marines quite a bit faster. It's hard to see that happen and go, "Oh yeah. No. That was totally worth the time and resources it took to put that guy on the field."

Which isn't to say marines should be unkillable, and it isn't to say they aren't more duable/killy than a guardsman. It's just that the difference you see on the tabletop doesn't make them *feel* appropriate for their fluff. My eldar feel fast. Tau feel like they're using advanced tech to compensate for their physical weakness. 'Crons feel durable. Chaos feels chaotic (even if I hate the random rolling.) On paper, marines should feel like plot-armored BAMFs that make even the nastiest gribblies in the galaxy cautious. Even a standard tac marine should be brutally powerful. Instead, they feel like slightly better armored normal humans that depend on the occassional special weapon to do all the work while their standard troops struggle to hurt anything.

Wait, a single marine being killed by a whole squad of guardsmen sets you off? There's your problem right there.

Make space marines tougher than they already are? What so 9/10 people playing space marines or csm not good enough for you?

If you want 40k to just be all about Speezh Mehraines and all the other armies to just exist to be stomped on by them you can feth yourself.

I hate space marine fantards. Space marines are the kiddy army. Truth.

DorianGray wrote:
Make space marines tougher than they already are? What so 9/10 people playing space marines or csm not good enough for you?

If you want 40k to just be all about Speezh Mehraines and all the other armies to just exist to be stomped on by them you can feth yourself.

I hate space marine fantards. Space marines are the kiddy army. Truth.

I don't think anyone is saying marines need to be "better" as far as winning games. I think the OP's point (and my own) is that space marines just don't feel like, well, space marines. In fact, the OP's suggestion to increase their toughness and wounds but significantly increase their points cost might actually make them less competitive as you'd have significantly fewer points points to spend on fancy guns. T5 W2 marines would last a lot longer, but bolters are still bolters. You'd end up with units that were harder to kill, but you'd also have significantly less board presence and firepower. you'd be extremely vulnerable to tarpitting, guns with high strength and/or low AP would still tear through you pretty quickly. You'd probably lose points worth of models at a slightly slower rate, but you'd also have way less firepower to send back at the enemy.

@Bobthehero: Let me put it this way: It currently takes 10 guys with lasguns to kill one marine. I'd rather it take twice as many guys to kill that marine, but have that marine be worth twice as many points. The reason being that that one marine would (theoretically) feel like more of a BAMF but still come out costing his player the same number of points when he died.

To me, it's not about marines not being strong enough to stomp on my opponents and make them have a bad time. It's about marines not feeling like the mini-bosses they're depicted as. Currently, they feel like IG vets with better gear. I'd rather they be more expensive and feel like an elite-but-scary force that can count on its basic gunmen (bolter marines) to pose a serious threat.

DorianGray wrote:
Make space marines tougher than they already are? What so 9/10 people playing space marines or csm not good enough for you?

If you want 40k to just be all about Speezh Mehraines and all the other armies to just exist to be stomped on by them you can feth yourself.

I hate space marine fantards. Space marines are the kiddy army. Truth.

Whoa. Chill out. As I said, I don't even play any imperium. It was just a suggestion. I'm not a fangirl of them at all (Eldar, DE and Harlequins for me). I just thought it'd make the squads more imposing maybe.
I'm sorry if I made you angry.
:/

Wyldhunt wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
Make space marines tougher than they already are? What so 9/10 people playing space marines or csm not good enough for you?

If you want 40k to just be all about Speezh Mehraines and all the other armies to just exist to be stomped on by them you can feth yourself.

I hate space marine fantards. Space marines are the kiddy army. Truth.

I don't think anyone is saying marines need to be "better" as far as winning games. I think the OP's point (and my own) is that space marines just don't feel like, well, space marines. In fact, the OP's suggestion to increase their toughness and wounds but significantly increase their points cost might actually make them less competitive as you'd have significantly fewer points points to spend on fancy guns. T5 W2 marines would last a lot longer, but bolters are still bolters. You'd end up with units that were harder to kill, but you'd also have significantly less board presence and firepower. you'd be extremely vulnerable to tarpitting, guns with high strength and/or low AP would still tear through you pretty quickly. You'd probably lose points worth of models at a slightly slower rate, but you'd also have way less firepower to send back at the enemy.

@Bobthehero: Let me put it this way: It currently takes 10 guys with lasguns to kill one marine. I'd rather it take twice as many guys to kill that marine, but have that marine be worth twice as many points. The reason being that that one marine would (theoretically) feel like more of a BAMF but still come out costing his player the same number of points when he died.

To me, it's not about marines not being strong enough to stomp on my opponents and make them have a bad time. It's about marines not feeling like the mini-bosses they're depicted as. Currently, they feel like IG vets with better gear. I'd rather they be more expensive and feel like an elite-but-scary force that can count on its basic gunmen (bolter marines) to pose a serious threat.

I don't buy the Marine BAMF point, I think they're great shocktroops, but nothing else.

If you wanted to make space Marines feel like BAMFs then either use my suggestion above or you could increase them to around 19ppm and replace the bolters profile with the grenade launchers profile.

Or do both and make them around 24ppm.

For me, it was more about when I play games against them, a tactical/assault squad coming near isn't really all that imposing, where as, if they were all T5 and 2 wounds, I'd definitely be a little more fearful of them.
But oh well.

DorianGray wrote:
Make space marines tougher than they already are? What so 9/10 people playing space marines or csm not good enough for you?

If you want 40k to just be all about Speezh Mehraines and all the other armies to just exist to be stomped on by them you can feth yourself.

I hate space marine fantards. Space marines are the kiddy army. Truth.

Says the guy who plays eldar. What so instantly winning 9/10 of the time isn't good enough for you?

Marines for Chaos and Loyalists do need some tweaks. As it is, cultists are preferable to either of them. It is literally better to field a bunch of raving lunatics with shovels then use a space marine. I do think that T5 and 2 wounds is not the right answer, but it's certainly a more constructive solution than angry rhetoric.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
Make space marines tougher than they already are? What so 9/10 people playing space marines or csm not good enough for you?

If you want 40k to just be all about Speezh Mehraines and all the other armies to just exist to be stomped on by them you can feth yourself.

I hate space marine fantards. Space marines are the kiddy army. Truth.

Says the guy who plays eldar. What so instantly winning 9/10 of the time isn't good enough for you?

Marines for Chaos and Loyalists do need some tweaks. As it is, cultists are preferable to either of them. It is literally better to field a bunch of raving lunatics with shovels then use a space marine. I do think that T5 and 2 wounds is not the right answer, but it's certainly a more constructive solution than angry rhetoric.

Thanks for the constructive criticism.

Edit: I'm not being sarcastic either. Haha.

I'd say if anything of those, it'd have to be one or the other and a point boost. Either as they are and 2w or T5, For nurgle if the basic marines go T5 they should go 2w, so either way nurgle marines would be T5 2W.