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So last night I was playing my dark eldar and I was using 3 razorwing jetfighters I was wondering am I able to fire all of my missiles or only 2 of the 4 also sorry if I posted this in the wrong spot. Also I don't have a rule book near by

There used to be a rule limiting missiles per turn, however, that was removed in the transition between 6th and 7th edition.

Now the only limit is the number of weapons fireable each turn (usually 4 for a flyer).

So if this would be applied to a Tau Skyray, if it remained stationary it could fire off all its missiles if it chose to do so? Scary, if you absolutely positively needed a flier dead in a turn.

The two missile restriction never applied to the skyray, since it is not a flier. Skyray alpha strike is pretty common, since something dies, and then people usually ignore it after that, so your Skyfiring ML source is a lower target priority for the enemy.

Sooooo, with my IG Vulture, if I had the 6 Hunter Killer missiles, I could fire all 6 in one turn if I wanted to?

 danpieri wrote:
Sooooo, with my IG Vulture, if I had the 6 Hunter Killer missiles, I could fire all 6 in one turn if I wanted to?

Isn't it a Flyer, which means that if it is Zooming it limited to firing 4 Weapons?

Of course, if it has Hover, it can switch to Fast Skimmer mode, and let loose everything in one go.

 danpieri wrote:
Sooooo, with my IG Vulture, if I had the 6 Hunter Killer missiles, I could fire all 6 in one turn if I wanted to?

If it is flyer then:

If you are zooming you can fire 4 at full BS and 2 at snapshots;

If you are hoovering then you are fast skimmer:
- Stationary or Combat Speed - fire all weapons at full BS;
- Cruising speed - fire 2 missiles at full BS, 4 others at snapshots;

Actually you are never given permission to fire more than 4 weapons as a zooming flyer - so it's 4 missiles and nothing else. Or a mix of missiles and other weapons totalling 4.

Hmm atually you may be right..
I thought that "Zooming and shooting" told us how many shots we can make at full BS, not how many shots we can make at all.

I was under the impression the rules said 4 at full BS and didn't specify if you could fire snapshots

Indeed, it just mentions the number you can fire at full BS. It does not state this overides the number you can fire in total.

It does not need to - all the other unti types describe how many you can shoot at full bs and then how and if you can snap fire. Flyers only give you permission for 4 weapons at full BS. You are never given permission for more than that though some special rules can over ride it like PotMS

Are the base rules for vehicles ignored, or does it state that flyers modify the rules for vehicles?

Its the latter. Thus, if it is silent on how many weapons can snapfire, it may still snapfire all other weapons.

Now that I think of it, I believe that specific unit type section about shooting overrides (not stack) general Vehicles section about shooting:
Walkers can fire all of its weapons.
Flyers can fire 4 weapons at full BS. No permission to snapshot.
Fast Vehicles have detailed description when to shoot with full BS and when snapshots.

PLease cite rules showing the general rules on vehicles shooting are replaced.

In the flyer entry.

Every vehicle type is very clear in defining what and how each vehicle may fire. Compare fast to flyer.

You are never given permission to snap shoot other weapons with the flyer unlike the fast type

but at the same time nor does it specify that flyers can not snap shoot. and since basically everything in the game can do snap shots unless specifically stated otherwise, its a fair assumption that Flyers can also utilize snap shots. Unless you can cite me a specific rule where it says Flyers are forbidden from using snap shots.

Game rules are always permissive - it has to say you can do a thing - not that you can't do a thing.

The flyer rules are different to EVERY other type of vehicle and all the others are clear in full BS and snap shots while flyers give no permission to

 Massaen wrote:
Game rules are always permissive - it has to say you can do a thing - not that you can't do a thing.

The flyer rules are different to EVERY other type of vehicle and all the others are clear in full BS and snap shots while flyers give no permission to

Again, the basic vehicle rules allow me to fire all weapons

SHow this permission is removed

Page and graph.

At a glance, flyer rules modify Combat and Cruising Speed measurements, which are what determine how many weapons a vehicle may fire at full BS with the remainder as Snap Sports, do they not?

The allowance to fire four weapons at full BS at Combat or Cruising speeds for a flyer then still leaves the ability to shoot any remaining weapons as Snap Shots.

Which is my contention. I am not seeing anythign stating the basic rules for vehicles can be followed, which is: i may fire all weapons.

Flyers - the type are never given permission to fire all weapons - just 4.

Compare it to FAST and you should see what I mean

Flyer is more specific and thus over rules the standard rules and flyer (the type) give you permission to fire 4 weapons at full BS. That's it

 Massaen wrote:
Flyers - the type are never given permission to fire all weapons - just 4.

Compare it to FAST and you should see what I mean

Flyer is more specific and thus over rules the standard rules and flyer (the type) give you permission to fire 4 weapons at full BS. That's it

Flyers are vehicles

Vehicles are given permission to fire All weapons

Find where this permission is EXPLICITLY removed.

You have failed to do so, 3rd time of asking.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Flyers are vehicles

Vehicles are given permission to fire All weapons

Find where this permission is EXPLICITLY removed.

You have failed to do so, 3rd time of asking.

I agree that it is not removed. However could you try to read it as separate entry?
By comparison:
"Fast vehicles that moved at Cruising Speed can fire up to two weapons using their full Ballistic Skill – other weapons can only make Snap Shots."
- Fast Vehicles
"Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill if they have moved at either Combat Speed or Cruising Speed that turn."
- Flyers

So either they write permission to "other weapons to fire as snapshots" or it is default permission from Vehicles.

Fast Vehicles entry shows that it is not inherited permission from Vehicles entry, because it specifically permits to shoot other weapons as snapshots.
Flyers don't have that permission.

So could it be that specific units have specific "non-inherited" entries regarding shooting?

Oh and BTW you want to know where the permission is EXPLICITLY removed?
Here: can fire up to four of their weapons

 danyboy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Flyers are vehicles

Vehicles are given permission to fire All weapons

Find where this permission is EXPLICITLY removed.

You have failed to do so, 3rd time of asking.

I agree that it is not removed. However could you try to read it as separate entry?
By comparison:
"Fast vehicles that moved at Cruising Speed can fire up to two weapons using their full Ballistic Skill – other weapons can only make Snap Shots."
- Fast Vehicles
"Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill if they have moved at either Combat Speed or Cruising Speed that turn."
- Flyers

So either they write permission to "other weapons to fire as snapshots" or it is default permission from Vehicles.

Fast Vehicles entry shows that it is not inherited permission from Vehicles entry, because it specifically permits to shoot other weapons as snapshots.
Flyers don't have that permission.

So could it be that specific units have specific "non-inherited" entries regarding shooting?

Oh and BTW you want to know where the permission is EXPLICITLY removed?
Here: can fire up to four of their weapons

You're assuming GW is consistent with their rules. Just because they give fast vehicles double permission to fire the remainder of the weapons as snap shots does not mean that the other vehicles lose this inherent permission.

Indeed,
I have never been comfortable using other Rules to try and explain how a completely different Rule might work, even in similar situations, due to this lack of consistency. There are many Rules out there that contain 'redundant' or 'reminder' text, a few words or a whole sentence that does not change how the Rule functions even if it is removed. Yet, for some reason, the Rule's Author felt the need to include this additional useless text, with no explanation as to why this text would be required. Lacking such an explanation, I can not in good faith use such comparisons to make any decision on the functionality of a Rule.

Case in point would be the recent thread on Kustom Force Fields, where a poster tried to make the claim that the absence of 'Friend and Enemy alike' changes 'All Models' to 'All Friendly Models.'
They may be correct for all we know, but without the Authors telling us why it makes a difference I can not conclude that it actually makes a difference...all is still all.

Yep, but keep in mind that specific units rules in all other cases: enirely overrides Vehicles rule or specifically reference to the Vehicles rule. No other unit entry when it say about shooting 'inherit' from Vehicles without specifically say it.

Walkers - enirely override Vehicles rules;
Fast Vehicles - enirely override Vehicles rules;
Heavy Vehicles - reference to Vehicles rules;
Super-Heavy Vehicles - reference to Vehicles rules;
Super-Heavy Walkers - reference to Walkers rules;
Super-Heavy Flyers - reference to Super-Heavy Vehicles rules;

And suddennly when it comes to Flyers you read it like half override Vehicle rule and half inherit (without 'permission'). That is odd interpretation.

For me it is simple.
When specific unit entry say something about shooting it states exactly what unit can do, no weird half inheritance.
Flyers 'Zooming and shooting' override general Vehicle rule and states that you can fire upto 4 weapons. Everything at full BS.

 danyboy wrote:
Yep, but keep in mind that specific units rules in all other cases: enirely overrides Vehicles rule or reference to the Vehicles rule. No other unit entry when it say about shooting 'inherit' from Vehicles without specifically say it.

Walkers - enirely override Vehicles rules;
Fast Vehicles - enirely override Vehicles rules;
Heavy Vehicles - reference to Vehicles rules;
Super-Heavy Vehicles - reference to Vehicles rules;
Super-Heavy Walkers - reference to Walkers rules;
Super-Heavy Flyers - reference to Super-Heavy Vehicles rules;

And suddennly when it comes to Flyers you read it like half override Vehicle rule and half inherit (without 'permission'). That is odd interpretation.

I think it's fair to argue that this is because obviously Flyers are vehicles so we must use the basic vehicle rules, and then shooting with Flyers only specifically references half of the basic vehicle shooting rules, i.e. modifies how many weapons they may shoot at full Ballistic Skill, while making no mention of removing the ability to fire the remainder as Snap Shots.

For me it is simple.
When specific unit entry say something about shooting it states exactly what unit can do, no weird half inheritance.
Flyers 'Zooming and shooting' override general Vehicle rule and states that you can fire upto 4 weapons. Everything at full BS.

This interpretation works fine too, although I would personally not be able to refuse an opponent who wished to fire Snap Shots with any additional weapons because permission is given in the basic vehicel rules, and not overriden elswhere.

That isn't explicit removal. You quote snipped. That rule actually provides permission to fire four weapons at full ballistic skill. It states nothing about removing permission to snap shot

Again, I have permission, as a vehicle, to fire ALL my weapons. This is indisputable in rules. I do not have this permission removed, therefore I may still fire all of them. All past the first four must be at snap shot as I can only fir four at full bs.

Proven.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
That isn't explicit removal. You quote snipped. That rule actually provides permission to fire four weapons at full ballistic skill. It states nothing about removing permission to snap shot

Again, I have permission, as a vehicle, to fire ALL my weapons. This is indisputable in rules. I do not have this permission removed, therefore I may still fire all of them. All past the first four must be at snap shot as I can only fir four at full bs.

Proven.

And I say to you that:
1) Whenever specific units rules require to inherit something from Vehicles then it specifically say it. IN ALL CASES that specific rule cover EVERYTHING what unit can do either by saying what it can do, or referencing to general Vehicles rules.
2) Flyers rule specifically say how many weapons you can fire (4). Because of sophisticated targeting systems, all of them can be fired at full BS.