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Okay, let's get some rules quotes out:

"Moving and Shooting with Vehicles

All vehicles have the Relentless special rule, but the number (and accuracy) of the weapons a vehicle can fire in the Shooting phase depends on how fast it moved in that turn's Movement phase, as detailed below.

...snip...

- A vehicle that moved at Combat Speed may fire a single weapon using its Ballistic Skill. The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons if it wishes, though, of course, it cannot fire any weapons that cannot be fired as Snap Shots.

- A vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can only make Snap Shots, as above"

"Zooming and Shooting

Flyers have sophisticated targeting systems designed to work at the fastest speeds. Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill if they have moved at either Combat Speed or Cruising Speed that turn."

To me they read fairly simply together. Flyers are vehicles, and so must follow the basic rules for 'Moving and Shooting with Vehicles'.

Being Flyers they have additional rules we have to follow, however, so for a Zooming Flyer we have to reference the rules for 'Zooming and Shooting'. While it can be argued these are a complete replacement for 'Moving and Shooting with Vehicles' that is not explicitly stated.

Given that Flyers are impossible to use without referencing the basic vehicle rules elsewhere I think it's entirely fair to assume 'Zooming and Shooting' is an additional modifier on, rather than a complete replacement to, 'Moving and Shooting with Vehicles'.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Given that Flyers are impossible to use without referencing the basic vehicle rules elsewhere I think it's entirely fair to assume 'Zooming and Shooting' is an additional modifier on, rather than a complete replacement to, 'Moving and Shooting with Vehicles'.

Shooting zooming flyer don't have separation on Cruising Speed or Combat speed so this especially don't fit to general Vehicle shooting rules.

Also your interpreation would be totally different than ANY other specific Vehicle unit entry. Please look at it!
As I stated, in all other cases rules for shooting are TOTALLY explanatory. No other unit inherit part of shooting rule without explicit permission.

 danyboy wrote:
Shooting zooming flyer don't have separation on Cruising Speed or Combat speed so this especially don't fit to general Vehicle shooting rules.

Irrelevant because it doesn't need separation; it explicitly refers to both moving at Combat and Cruising Speeds.

If you believe this is relevant somehow, please explain why.

Also your interpreation would be totally different than ANY other specific Vehicle unit entry. Please look at it!
As I stated, in all other cases rules for shooting are TOTALLY explanatory. No other unit inherit part of shooting rule without explicit permission.

This is incorrect. For example, Heavy Vehicles:

"Shooting with Heavy Vehicles
For the purposes of determining which weapons a Heavy Vehicle can fire (and at what Ballistic Skill), Heavy Vehicles are always treated as having remained Stationary."

We must refer to the basic vehicle rules for this, otherwise we do not know what reamining Stationary does for vehicle shooting.

And Super-heavy Vehicles:

"Shooting
When a Super-heavy vehicle makes a shooting attack, it is always treated as if it had remained stationary in the Movement phase (even if it actually moved)"

Again, we must refer to the basic vehicle rules for this, otherwise we do not know what remaining stationary does for vehicle shooting.


These both show that they are additional modifiers on the normal vehicle shooting rules, and actually require us to refer back to the basic rules.

Similarly, when looking at 'Zooming and Shooting' we are entitled to look at the basic rules and there is basis for 'Zooming and Shooting' to modify only the number of weapons able to be fired at full Ballistic Skill, leaving the others available to be fired as Snap Shots.

Alternatively 'Zooming and Shooting' may entirely replace the basic vehicle rules, but I don't think you can claim it is explicitly clear and is absolutely correct, because it does not clearly say so.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
This is incorrect. For example, Heavy Vehicles:

"Shooting with Heavy Vehicles
For the purposes of determining which weapons a Heavy Vehicle can fire (and at what Ballistic Skill), Heavy Vehicles are always treated as having remained Stationary."

We must refer to the basic vehicle rules for this, otherwise we do not know what reamining Stationary does for vehicle shooting.

And Super-heavy Vehicles:

"Shooting
When a Super-heavy vehicle makes a shooting attack, it is always treated as if it had remained stationary in the Movement phase (even if it actually moved)"

Again, we must refer to the basic vehicle rules for this, otherwise we do not know what remaining stationary does for vehicle shooting.
These both show that they are additional modifiers on the normal vehicle shooting rules, and actually require us to refer back to the basic rules.

Exactly, rules force us to look at Vehicle general rules. They always shoot all of theirs weapons with full BS because that is what Stationary means. No snapshots shooting occurs.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Similarly, when looking at 'Zooming and Shooting' we are entitled to look at the basic rules and there is basis for 'Zooming and Shooting' to modify only the number of weapons able to be fired at full Ballistic Skill, leaving the others available to be fired as Snap Shots.

I don't see similiarities. I see here rule that explains everything and don't send us to general rules. Exactly like Fast Vehicles, or Walkers that rule covers everything what unit can do when it want to make shooting attack.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Alternatively 'Zooming and Shooting' may entirely replace the basic vehicle rules, but I don't think you can claim it is explicitly clear and is absolutely correct, because it does not clearly say so.

I believe it is, because rules for shooting for other units are clear and don't leave as 'in half of the rule'.

Vehicle rules state you can fire ALL your weapons, some at full BS some as Snap shots.

Flyers Rules specifically state you can fire 4 weapons at full BS, they make no mention of Snap shots. So what your saying is that because the author didn't feel it necessary to mention that "Ohh btw Flyers can't snap shot" or "Flyers can then fire all remaining weapons as snap shots" that the inherent rule that all vehicles can fire snap shot is removed. By that same logic then my Ork Boyz can't move on the table because, while they are infantry, and all infantry get to move 6 inches the rules entry for my boyz doesn't specifically mention that I can move them 6 inches.

 danyboy wrote:
Exactly, rules force us to look at Vehicle general rules. They always shoot all of theirs weapons with full BS because that is what Stationary means. No snapshots shooting occurs.

You can't have it both ways. On the one hand you're saying all other vehicle rules are self-contained, but on the other hand now you're claiming we can (and must) look at the basic vehicle rules by reference.

I don't see similiarities. I see here rule that explains everything and don't send us to general rules. Exactly like Fast Vehicles, or Walkers that rule covers everything what unit can do when it want to make shooting attack.

It doesn't explain everything. We still have to know what Combat Speed and Cruising Speed are, and because we also know what effect Combat and Cruising Speeds have on shooting ordinarily, we're entitled to keep that in mind.

This isn't a step-by-step process where we don't know anything about the prior, basic rules. We know (or should know...) all of the rules, and should keep them all in mind when applying more specific rules over more basic rules.

I believe it is, because rules for shooting for other units are clear and don't leave as 'in half of the rule'.

Again, you're trying to claim it both ways, which is inconsistent and wrong. We have to read specific vehicle type rules with the basic vehicle rules in mind, or they're incomplete; they are not complete rules in isolation.

Indeed, how about some actual rules stating you must ignore

The actual rule tells you how many weapons can fire at full BS - 4. There is no rule stating you may fire no weapons as snapshots.

Failure to follow tenets and support with written rules.

@Ghazkuul

It's bad example. Imagine that every Ork unit has it's own explanation about moving, which either explains exactly how it moves, or redirect you to general rules for moves.
And all of the sudden one unit rule tell us how to move, but you try to force redirection to general rule. So either we have explained how to move, or not - no "half-explained/half-inherited".

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 danyboy wrote:
Exactly, rules force us to look at Vehicle general rules. They always shoot all of theirs weapons with full BS because that is what Stationary means. No snapshots shooting occurs.

You can't have it both ways. On the one hand you're saying all other vehicle rules are self-contained, but on the other hand now you're claiming we can (and must) look at the basic vehicle rules by reference.

Yes, because we have explained - the specific rule use general rule as reference. And the rule cover everything we need to know - when full BS and when Snapshots.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

I don't see similiarities. I see here rule that explains everything and don't send us to general rules. Exactly like Fast Vehicles, or Walkers that rule covers everything what unit can do when it want to make shooting attack.

It doesn't explain everything. We still have to know what Combat Speed and Cruising Speed are, and because we also know what effect Combat and Cruising Speeds have on shooting ordinarily, we're entitled to keep that in mind.

This isn't a step-by-step process where we don't know anything about the prior, basic rules. We know (or should know...) all of the rules, and should keep them all in mind when applying more specific rules over more basic rules.

Yep, but we explained exactly how many weapons can fire at full BS and how many at Snapshots - we have permission to fire other weapons to fire as snapshots! That is what i mean by: "everything we need to know".
Comabt speed -> look at general rules Stationary;
Cruising speed -> Detailed: We can fire upto 2 weapons at full BS, all other at snapshots.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

I believe it is, because rules for shooting for other units are clear and don't leave as 'in half of the rule'.

Again, you're trying to claim it both ways, which is inconsistent and wrong. We have to read specific vehicle type rules with the basic vehicle rules in mind, or they're incomplete; they are not complete rules in isolation.

Well, I belive that you are the one that adds a sentence to flyer rules.
Rules for Flyers are called "Zooming and shooting" not "Zooming and shooting with weapons at full BS".
The rules tell us exactly what shooting we can do: fire upto 4 weapons at full BS.
You add there sentence: "The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons if it wishes"

@nosferatu1001
Let's say we zoomed Cruising speed. We have rules:
"Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill if they have moved at either Combat Speed or Cruising Speed that turn."
- Zooming and shooting
versus
"A vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can only make Snap Shots"
- Vehicles in the shooting phase

For me it is "stretching the rules" saying you inherit ability to fire all other weapons with snapshots. Sorry.
And yes, when we zoom with Combat Speed it "fit better" however I stil believe it is too general assumption that you add 'layer' of full BS shooting to only Snapshots, withot permission to use rest of the weapons as snapshots.


Anyway:

As we can see specific shooting rules:
- forces us to use general rules (tell us how to use it - in most cases count as Stationary - Heavy/Super-Heavy);
- overrides general rule (is self-sufficient - explain everything about shooting - Walkers/Fast Vehicles - no unsaid half inheritance);

And we have the one rule that:
- don't forces you to use general rules (no "count as", don't send us to general Vehicles rule);
- can override general rule (can be self-sufficient if you read it as "closed" rule, like in other vehicles)
But all of the sudden you add from yourself (and this is exception to all shooting rules for specific Vehicles types):
- sentence: "The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons if it wishes" (which exist in Fast Vehicles, but not here!);
or
- inherit half of the general Vehicle rule, the one about snapshoting when moved Combat Speed, regardles if you moved Combat Speed or Cruising Speed;

IMHO is weirdly complicated way of thinking and kind of "wishfull thinking".
For me it is very unlikely that "your way" is proper way to read the "Zooming and Shooting" rule, but I don't belive we come to an agreement on this one

So, after that wall of tezt - you still have nothing, absolutely no rule whatsoever, that states that the general permisison ALL vehicles have to foire ALL weapons is removed?

Gotcha.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So, after that wall of tezt - you still have nothing, absolutely no rule whatsoever, that states that the general permisison ALL vehicles have to foire ALL weapons is removed?

Gotcha.

I was trying to prove that specific rules for shooting override general rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So, after that wall of tezt - you still have nothing, absolutely no rule whatsoever, that states that the general permisison ALL vehicles have to foire ALL weapons is removed?

Gotcha.

exalted

general rules: everything can snap fire unless stated otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 danyboy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So, after that wall of tezt - you still have nothing, absolutely no rule whatsoever, that states that the general permisison ALL vehicles have to foire ALL weapons is removed?

Gotcha.

I was trying to prove that specific rules for shooting override general rules. If you would try to read instead of using "weird" inharitance method you would know.

In this example nothing in the text says anything about removing the ability to snap fire. All it says is how many of its many weapons it can fire at full ballistic skill. Therefore you have yet again proven nothing and have stated nothing.

 danyboy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So, after that wall of tezt - you still have nothing, absolutely no rule whatsoever, that states that the general permisison ALL vehicles have to foire ALL weapons is removed?

Gotcha.

I was trying to prove that specific rules for shooting override general rules.

So, where is your specific rule?

Page and graph

Note: the word is "specific", with a root of "to specify". Implicit is not specifying and cannot be specific. Specific would be wording to the effect of "Zooming flyers may only fire four weapons in a shooting phase, all at full ballistic skill".

Please provide such wording. Or concede that you have, at absolute best, an implicit idea that this has been removed, that is not however sufficient to override the actual rules whihch state I may fire everything.

Where are the actual rules that say a vehicle with the flyer type can fire every weapon?

 Massaen wrote:
Where are the actual rules that say a vehicle with the flyer type can fire every weapon?

Where are the actual rules that you may deploy on the 2nd floor of a citadel Ruin?

Seriously-> basic vehicle rule is they may fire all weapons.

Find where this rule is removed. Pahe and graph. I've shown my permission, so the onus is on you. Page and graph.

 Massaen wrote:
Where are the actual rules that say a vehicle with the flyer type can fire every weapon?

The same place that a Vehicle with the "Tank" type finds the rule. Also the same place that a Vehicle with the "Transport" type finds the rule.

That would be page 73 in the rule book under "Vehicles in the Shooting Phase"


Regards

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Seriously-> basic vehicle rule is they may fire all weapons.

I don't have to find where this rule is removed because it does not exist. There is no rule that says vehicles can fire all their weapons... some quotes from the rule book then...

MOVING AND SHOOTING WITH VEHICLES

All vehicles have the relentless special rule, but the number (and accuracy) of the weapons a vehicle can fire in the shooting phase depends on how fast it moved in at turn's movement phase, as detailed below.

Stationary can fire all of its weapons (which a flyer can not do as it is given no permission to remain stationary - and yes this is not a straight quote but its not relevant)

A vehicle that moved at combat speed may fire a single weapon using its Ballistic skill. The vehicle can all fire snap shots with other weapons if it wishes.

A vehicle that moved a cruising speed can only make snap shots, as above.


Straight forward for normal vehicles - like a drop pod for example

ZOOMING AND SHOOTING

Flyers have sophisticated targeting systems designed to work at the fastest speeds. Zooming Flyers can fire up to 4 of their weapons using their full ballistic skill if they have moved at either combat or cruising speed that turn.



Here we have rules that contradict the core rules. The core rules tell us how many weapons and with what BS we can shoot. This is more specific and over rules the core rules as such. Its a specific deviation from the core rules. There is no room to add sections from the core rules because this is clear and specific.

SHOOTING WITH FAST VEHICLES

Fast vehicles that moved at combat speed in the preceding movement phase can fire all of their weapons, just like other types of vehicles that have remained stationary. Fast vehicles that moved at cruising speed can fire up to 2 weapons using their full ballistic skill - other weapons can only make snap shots.

I included this to highlight the change in wording between flyers and different types of vehicles. Fast vehicles under cruising speed can fire more guns (even than a normal vehicle at combat speed - a specific deviation) and is then given permission to snap shot the other guns.

There is no rule what so ever that says you can always fire all your guns - only exceptions to the core rules (like firing ordinance or being a flyer) which in turn limit what you can do.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Where are the actual rules that you may deploy on the 2nd floor of a citadel Ruin?

There aren't any of these either - nice try though! Ruins don't have levels in 7th ed... or floors for that matter

So find where the permission to fire snapshots with any weapon at cruising speed is removed.

Page and graph.

I can fire four at full bs and X at snapshot and comply with both rules.

A flyer can fire 4 weapons at full bs, and snap fire the rest. It's sophisticated targeting systems let it fire more weapons at full bs than another vehicles when moving. Nowhere does it state that other vehicle shooting rules cease to apply. The rules have already been given in the vehicle section, that they haven't been repeated doesn't negate them.

 Massaen wrote:
Here we have rules that contradict the core rules. The core rules tell us how many weapons and with what BS we can shoot. This is more specific and over rules the core rules as such. Its a specific deviation from the core rules. There is no room to add sections from the core rules because this is clear and specific.

You're making an assumption that that is the case. It's possible that the Zooming and Shooting rules are meant to completely replace the Moving and Shooting with Vehicles rules, but you cannot argue it is explicitly not possible that they instead only modify the specific parts of the basic rules to which they refer, i.e. the number of weapons able to be fired at full Ballistic Skill.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Massaen wrote:
Here we have rules that contradict the core rules. The core rules tell us how many weapons and with what BS we can shoot. This is more specific and over rules the core rules as such. Its a specific deviation from the core rules. There is no room to add sections from the core rules because this is clear and specific.

You're making an assumption that that is the case. It's possible that the Zooming and Shooting rules are meant to completely replace the Moving and Shooting with Vehicles rules, but you cannot argue it is explicitly not possible that they instead only modify the specific parts of the basic rules to which they refer, i.e. the number of weapons able to be fired at full Ballistic Skill.

and your making the assumption that because the flyer rules don't state you "you can fire snapshots" that means that they, unlike every other unit in the game, can not fire snap shots. Every unit that can not fire snap shots has it specifically written in the rules, Flyers do not.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
and your making the assumption that because the flyer rules don't state you "you can fire snapshots" that means that they, unlike every other unit in the game, can not fire snap shots. Every unit that can not fire snap shots has it specifically written in the rules, Flyers do not.

Are you meaning to respond to me? Because I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion that Flyers may fire four weapons at full Ballistic Skill plus any additional weapons as Snap Shots.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
and your making the assumption that because the flyer rules don't state you "you can fire snapshots" that means that they, unlike every other unit in the game, can not fire snap shots. Every unit that can not fire snap shots has it specifically written in the rules, Flyers do not.

Are you meaning to respond to me? Because I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion that Flyers may fire four weapons at full Ballistic Skill plus any additional weapons as Snap Shots.

yeah sorry I might have made that seem a bit confusing i blame the coffee...well lack of that is.