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Greetings one and all,

I have been looking at the Numenor army for a long time now seeing nothing but a rather limited choice of army with nothing overly exciting about it ! But been my favourite army I decided it was time to offer up some proposed rules that we as the community have contributed towards, helped balance and bring the army forwards into a new era of lotr SBG.

So me and Paradigm have been having a quick back and forth with ideas of units heroes and other bits and bobs to get us started, eventually I would like to have scenarios as well as a full army list for everyone to play with and enjoy !
We are aiming for something of an army that is different from that of Gondor and Rohan in play style and unit types.

To start off with we discussed having a Royal Body guard unit which would have the rough statline as follows.

Kings bodyguard:
F S D A W C
5 3 4 1 1 4 or 5 ?

Options would be: Shield 1pt
Lance 1 pt
Armoured horse / Horse (maybe both ?)
Banner 30 points ?

They would also have the bodyguard rule, but is there a possibility of having them gain a bonus of some sort when within so many incehs of Elendil or Isildur ?
We decided the base defence of 4 would be a good base as in the film, when Isildu is ambushed, you can clearly see normal warriors of Numenor on horseback in their usual armour, we assumed this would have been his personal body guard ?

Next up would be an addition option for Elendil,

If Elendil is in your army, you can upgrade the Kings bodyguard with Heavy Armour for 1 pt per model, ( This is to reperesent having a more elite bodyguard for the great king of the Numenorians)

Next up was Elendils second Son, Anarion. We based his base stats for that similar of Faramir,

Anarion:
F S D A W C M W F
6 4 6 2 2 5 3 2 2

Options: Shield
Lance
Horse

We checked his background and it was rather lacking in detail but it did mention he fought quite a bit in Ithillien, so a possible woodland creature special rule ? There is obviously more we can do with this character yet.


Next up was a mid tier hero, better than a cpatain but not as good as the main heavy hitters,

Somethign along the lines of this.

Knight hero (needs a name):
F S D A W C M W F
5 4 5/6 2 2 4/5 2 1 1

Options: Lance
Shield
Different weapons, possibly a two handed one ?


For the current Warriors of Numenor we thought replacing the normal bow option with a Steel Bow option (long bow) would repressent their superior bow crafting skills compared to that of the ordinary man. Their 4+ to hit would still leave them short of the elven skill with a bow.
Would there also be a possiblity of offering a 2 handed weapon choice also ??

Finally we thought a more heavly armoured unit that would offer the Numenor army something extra to play with or maybe even lightly armoured. This is obviously somerthing that needs everyone chipping in ideas for what could possibly give the army a new dynamic to play with.


So far that's everything we got, I decided it was ready for the community to start offering suggestions and feedback for us to get going.

once we have more final choices and decissions I will make up a PDF for downlaod and we can go from there !


Thanks for looking
Wolf

Looks like a good start!

One thing I forgot to mention earlier, I think the Knight Hero ought to have some kind of special rule for fighting heroes/monsters or both, but stay at 1/1/1 for M/W/F. Basically to make sure he's not straight up better than a Captain, and can't lead as effectively, but is better in a duel than one. The Knight of the White Tower gets a sword that does 2 Wounds for every successful Wound roll, so something along those lines (is. Really good at one thing, less good at everything else than a Captain) is my suggestion.

I think that's a good idea, it would help give another unique hero to use.
As for that special rule, how about something along of the lines of the rule for Gimli, he can fight in different ways. So if he fights in a defensive manner he gains the two handed weapon rule, or aggressively and gains an extra attack ?

I mean I don't know that is more fitting towards an actual named hero than a generic knight hero ?

I have however been reading up on the numenor history and seemed they were excellent sea men. Their population seemed to live off fish mainly so would there be a possible corsair like unit there ?

It would not be Númenórean if it is Elendil or Isildur as the "King."

Númenóre would have been gone for a long, long while by that time (it fell in 3319 SA, and Gondor and Arnor were Dúnedain, not Númenórean, exactly).

Gondor and Arnor were not founded until 3320 - 3400. The Various cities existed as Númenórean settlements, yet were smaller and only Pelargir and Umbar were fortified (and Umbar tended to be full of Black Númenóreans/King's Men, who fell to Morgoth worship - how Elendil dealt with them was never settled by Tolkien).

However, if you are going by the wholly inaccurate movie, then I suppose it doesn't matter.

The "Númenórean Realms in Exile" were specifically Gondor and Arnor. Early Gondor and Arnor, where most of the population was still Dúnedain.

Also, the relationship to Corsairs is specious. If you are looking at what Gondor would have had as a Navy, it would have been ships manned by Sailors who did not fight, and units of Marines that were the combatants if needed.

Pelargir remained the port of Gondor. Yet few ships of Númenóre remained after the Downfall. And Elendil & Sons only brought nine ships with them, all but three of which were wrecked. It took several hundred years for Gondor to rebuild even a small number of ships, and roughly 1,200 - 1,500 years for Gondor to have a significantly large Navy (which would up being destroyed and/or stolen by Castamir during the Kin-Strife).

So at the time of 3440 SA - 0 FA (the period of the Last Alliance), Gondor would have no Navy, and Arnor never built a Navy at all (being mostly land-locked).

If you want to create Second Age Númenóreans, and Early Gondorians/Arnorians (Dúnedain), they would have fought more as did the Elves:

Ranks of Spearmen backed by Archers who fired over their heads.

But that was only when you massed several thousand men. Such a formation does nothing until you have a minimum of about 1,000 men.

Also, the Dúnedain (Númenóreans in Exile), and the King's Men who ruled Middle-earth prior to them, both had next to no cavalry of their own until the Third Age.

They used the Foradan (Northmen of Rhovanion) as their Mounted troops. The Foradan were forced vassals/subjects under the King's Men, and they were willing allies of Elendil.

So having "Knights" would not really have happened for a few hundred years, due to the inability to do much other than lay siege to Mordor and then Barad-dûr for roughly 100 years.

The Early Gondorian Knights would likely have been on an Armored mount, with lance, backed by mounted archers.

They would have charged in wedges, which, fortunately, is something that can be accomplished with only a few mounted men.

MB

Keep in mind that the Númenóreans weren't normal humans in any sense of the word. The Dúnedain are their watered down descendants. You would basically have an army of Aragorns, clad in the finest armor and using the finest weapons ever made by humans. And while still mortal even the average guy from Númenór would live for hundreds of years.

This is a nation that, when it landed in Middle Earth, its fleet covered the sea and its army was so powerful that Sauron didn't fight it. He gave up and surrendered, and this was at the apex of his power and might when he still had a true physical form. He eventually corrupted it from within, but his terror at their might and splendor was genuine.

You'd be talking minimum fight values of 7. They'd also most likely have Defense of 7-8 as well. Multiple attacks and wounds. And they'd all have might, will, and fate points.

BeAfraid wrote:
It would not be Númenórean if it is Elendil or Isildur as the "King."

Númenóre would have been gone for a long, long while by that time (it fell in 3319 SA, and Gondor and Arnor were Dúnedain, not Númenórean, exactly).

Gondor and Arnor were not founded until 3320 - 3400. The Various cities existed as Númenórean settlements, yet were smaller and only Pelargir and Umbar were fortified (and Umbar tended to be full of Black Númenóreans/King's Men, who fell to Morgoth worship - how Elendil dealt with them was never settled by Tolkien).
MB

I think the idea is more to create an army based around Elendil, the name 'Numenorean' is just being used because that's how the current models are labelled. Which makes sense, because whatever LOTR list is drawn up has to function around the model range as currently made by GW as things stand.

The correct army list name I suspect Paradigm and Wolf are after would be 'The Realms in Exile', to stand for Elendil's realm based out of Annuminas, and his sons down in Osgiliath. 'Exiled Realms' would be a more concise, better sounding name though, and matches with the 'Fallen Realms' evil army list.

In that period of time, as the Dunedain were the more powerful aristocracy of Arnor/Gondor and more directly Numenorean by blood, so they would be the most logical choice to make up the generic Captains. It would also make sense for such warriors to have statistics more closely aligned with those of the Kings of Men, so a higher fight and courage value (possibly any extra might or will point too?).

Here's a closer shot Isildur's bodyguard from the films, on the assumption the goal is to aim for their appearance.

Yep, that's the idea, the 'Numenoreans' a) at the end of the second age/war of the Last Alliance and b) expanding rather replacing the limited stuff GW does already offer. With that in mind, the stats and function of the army does have to be based around the current stuff, which to me means:

F4 minimum, F5 for elite models
Heavy Armour reserved for the upper echelons of the army
Core troops with shields, Spearmen and Archers.

So no army of superhumans here, just a human army that's a bit more elite than the Rohan or Gondor force lists.

The name of course (and the rest of it) is up to Wolf, but I would personally leave it as a Numenorean army. It may not be technically accurate, but this is a supplement for SBG based on the film version of Middle Earth, both of which use that name to refer to Elendil/Isildur's army in the second age. It's the name the people this is meant for will be used to using.

Interesting idea to use the Kings of Men profile for generic Captains!

Hey some really interesting points have been raised here, firstly I think I will be keeping the name as Numenor as the profile of the warriors is Warriors of Numenor so it does make sense.

Those pictures are what I was referring to when I was talking about the Royal guard!

The King's of men is an interesting choice, something I'll definitely consider that when I write up the pdf. I have been busy been ill but I'm back on the mend so I'll be working on this soon !

Paradigm hit the nail on the head with what I am trying to do, expanding on what already exists. Limited as it is !

Isildur's bodyguard actually look like they have fur cloaks/lined shoulders as opposed to cloth ones, sort of a Raven GoT style.




That could be one way of differentiating them. Fur cloaks are easily sculpted, after all.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Keep in mind that the Númenóreans weren't normal humans in any sense of the word. The Dúnedain are their watered down descendants. You would basically have an army of Aragorns, clad in the finest armor and using the finest weapons ever made by humans. And while still mortal even the average guy from Númenór would live for hundreds of years.

This is a nation that, when it landed in Middle Earth, its fleet covered the sea and its army was so powerful that Sauron didn't fight it. He gave up and surrendered, and this was at the apex of his power and might when he still had a true physical form. He eventually corrupted it from within, but his terror at their might and splendor was genuine.

You'd be talking minimum fight values of 7. They'd also most likely have Defense of 7-8 as well. Multiple attacks and wounds. And they'd all have might, will, and fate points.

The Dúnedain ARE the Edain (Númenóreans).

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/d/dunedain.html

The Dúnedain name was applied when they relocated from Middle-earth into the Dún(West), thus, they became the "Men of the West" (Dúnë-Edain - Dúnedain). Although the name was not used by the Númenóreans until after the Fall (Akallabêth). It was used by the Men of Middle-earth to refer to the Edain in Númenóre as soon as they became known in Middle-earth. And Elendil adopted it to differentiate his peoples from the Númenóreans before him.

Dúnedain of Arnor/Dúnedain of the North
Dúnedain of the South/Gondor


For the SBG, many would have Might, Will, and Fate points, but not all.

In Númenóre, there was a distinct difference from those descendent from Ëarendil, or the Three Great Houses (Haleth, Hador, and Bëorn - http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/e/edain.html).

This was especially true of the line of Elendil, in whom were re-born the blood of Elros Tar Minyatur.

And, in Middle-earth, in the Kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor, the Dúnedain of Arnor were said to be the mightier of the two lines (even though these lines largely failed earlier than they did in the South - this was due to Sauron intentionally targeting them as the more dangerous to his domain).

So, in terms of Might, Will, and Fate, you would have bodyguard units who would be picked men who would all have these characteristics. And any officer, no matter how significant would have such characteristics (to a greater or lesser degree).

But the typical foot-soldier would probably not, even though they might be Dúnedain. But you would find many more men who did have these characteristics than among the Later Third Age.

Also, Aragorn was considered to have in him reborn the blood of old. He was just as capable, mighty, powerful, etc. as were Elendil and his sons. Read the Appendices.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
Yep, that's the idea, the 'Numenoreans' a) at the end of the second age/war of the Last Alliance and b) expanding rather replacing the limited stuff GW does already offer. With that in mind, the stats and function of the army does have to be based around the current stuff, which to me means:

F4 minimum, F5 for elite models
Heavy Armour reserved for the upper echelons of the army
Core troops with shields, Spearmen and Archers.

So no army of superhumans here, just a human army that's a bit more elite than the Rohan or Gondor force lists.

The name of course (and the rest of it) is up to Wolf, but I would personally leave it as a Numenorean army. It may not be technically accurate, but this is a supplement for SBG based on the film version of Middle Earth, both of which use that name to refer to Elendil/Isildur's army in the second age. It's the name the people this is meant for will be used to using.

Interesting idea to use the Kings of Men profile for generic Captains!

That would indeed be accurate.

MB

Here's one conversion.

Oh my, that is a rather nice conversion indeed.

If im not mistaken they are made from some historical miniatures ?

that looks to be from a regular gondor knight. Just replaced the head and maybe add the cape(not sure if it already had one) but the spear is defiantly a gw sculpt of a gondor spear

Quite possibly ! I saw these wit ha quick google image search !

[utl]http://www.thelastalliance.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5659[/url]

They look quite convinving to me !

I remember I did a similar type of thing on One Ring years ago. I gave them S4 as they were mentioned in the books to have been too much for Sauron to handle, plus Fv4 S3 Mannish troops are plentiful in the game and I wanted to give them something to set them apart. Points were higher, of course.

As for Anarion, he was a full-blooded Numenorean of royal descent. Anything besides a Fv6 3A 3W statline would be grossly inappropriate, fluffwise. He's also mentioned as having held Minas Anor (which came to be called Minas Tirith in the 3rd Age) after Isildur had lost Minas Ithil (the future Morgul) and fled to Arnor to seek help from their father. As such, a good Courage and healthy stand-fast! would be appropriate, I think.

BeAfraid wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Keep in mind that the Númenóreans weren't normal humans in any sense of the word. The Dúnedain are their watered down descendants. You would basically have an army of Aragorns, clad in the finest armor and using the finest weapons ever made by humans. And while still mortal even the average guy from Númenór would live for hundreds of years.

This is a nation that, when it landed in Middle Earth, its fleet covered the sea and its army was so powerful that Sauron didn't fight it. He gave up and surrendered, and this was at the apex of his power and might when he still had a true physical form. He eventually corrupted it from within, but his terror at their might and splendor was genuine.

You'd be talking minimum fight values of 7. They'd also most likely have Defense of 7-8 as well. Multiple attacks and wounds. And they'd all have might, will, and fate points.

The Dúnedain ARE the Edain (Númenóreans).

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/d/dunedain.html

The Dúnedain name was applied when they relocated from Middle-earth into the Dún(West), thus, they became the "Men of the West" (Dúnë-Edain - Dúnedain). Although the name was not used by the Númenóreans until after the Fall (Akallabêth). It was used by the Men of Middle-earth to refer to the Edain in Númenóre as soon as they became known in Middle-earth. And Elendil adopted it to differentiate his peoples from the Númenóreans before him.

Dúnedain of Arnor/Dúnedain of the North

MB

Sure, at the beginning. I was referring to the Dúnedain at the time of the War of the Ring. Where they indeed are their watered down descendants, and they're still quite badass on all levels.

The point being that true Númenóreans would be really really strong.