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 Formosa wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Maybe in your experience. I usualy have something around ML 8-14 on the field as CSM and I never have enough dice to cast everything I want reliably.

Now I know GK's can get to a ridiculous amount of warp charges, but that's really what I mean when i said "taking it out of proportion". We rarely have excess dice, even among our GK players. Unless they specifically go out of their way to maximize their dice pool.

Haha such bs, 8-14 dice with the rr from familiers, and you can't cast what you want, I don't buy it mate.

To cast, throw x dice, on a 4+ the charge is harnessed.
To dispel, throw x dice, resist on 6+

Already the phase is skewed towards casting, then we have.

You must stop all the dice that have been harnessed, not just knock them below the casting value, all of the dice, so:

I want to cast invisibility or whatever, I have 12 dice so I'm gonna throw 5 at it, as you only have 2, I roll 4,5,6,1,2, you now cannot possibly dispel that power, but guess what, the other power I have is also amazing so I will throw 5 at that too, awww shame, still can't dispel, for my last trick I'll throw 2 dice at some useless spell, go ahead and stop it, oh, you need a 6+.... Nevermind.

So we have, massive ease of casting compared to dispelling, more dice for casters, no limit on power dice, so it literally is take as many psykers as you want, as your opponent won't be taking part in the psychic phase anyway.

A lot of the time I bring Ahriman, sorcerers, daemon princes and any mix thereof.
Let's say I've got Ahriman, a daemon prince and an allied sorcerer from a crimson slaughter, maybe even thousand sons because I've got Ahriman anyway and I want to get as much WC's as possible for this scenario.
That's not competitive (especially the 1k sons), but it's a lot of easy WC's. That's a combined ML of 12

Even if throw a 6 on the psychic dice, I could use ALL of those dice with Ahriman alone. Should I find myself in range of some units with him, I'll probably want to cast about 9 to 12 witchfires with him (because I will be fishing for witchfires and Biomancy, Tzeentch and Telepathy all have witchfire primarises). You can calculate yourself how many dice I'd need to reliably cast most of them.
I realize he's a special case, since he doesn't have a familiar and can cast the same spell multiple times, but it's just to illustrate that 14 charges in fact are not always enough to cast everything you want.

That said, even if I do not account for these abilities, 14 WC are not going to allow me to cast everything I want and certainly not everything I have that's useful.
So I've got 5 psykers. 1K sons can't roll on anything but Tzeentch, so they'll have Firestorm and some other power. Ahriman and the sorcerer (and possibly the DP depending on what the opponent brings) are probably going to roll once on telepathy for Shriek or twice if they get invis. If the sorcerer didn't roll invis, he'll have one roll left which I'm going to roll on divination (because crimson fist sorcerers can take a relic that allows them to do so). So DP is either going to roll all on biomancy or on the aformentioned Telepathy. 3 out of 6 powers from biomancy, I'll want to cast every turn probably, so unless I'm VERY unlucky I'll be using him every turn aswell.

So let's look at what I'd want to cast every turn, at least assuming fairly bad rolls:
3 witchfires from Ahriman (disregarding is abilities to cast them multiple times).
1 Divination power from the sorcerer (Even if I don't roll well, prescience is always good)
1 witchfire from the sorcerer's alligned god
2 witchfires, one each from the 1K sons respectively
1 power from the DP's alligned god

And again, this is the bare minimum of spells I'm 100% certain I'd have and probably could use every turn. Yeah, Tzeentch firestorm might not be a particularly strong psychic power, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to cast if I had the charges to do so. It's random but it also has potential.

3 witchfires without familiar, so 6 dice to reliably cast. 4 WC1 spells with spell familiar, another 4 dice needed to cast reliably. Probably prescience, which is WC2. I don't know how many dice you need tot throw at this to get it of reliably, but for the sake of not exaggerating, I'm going to say 3 (but I think it's probably 4). So assuming I rolled the worst of the worst powers, I'll need 13 dice in order to 'reliably cast' powers.
But this is the minimum of the minimum of powers I'd want to cast, only counting the powers that I'll have 99.99% of the time.

What if I roll Iron arm on the DP? +2 dice
What if I roll a 4th witchfire on Ahriman? +2 dice
What if I roll invisibility on the Sorc instead of a WC1 witchfire? +1 dice
What if I roll ....

And you know what? You'd be right to say that you can't rely on that happening because "what if" is not a valid argument. But it's very likely that I am at least going to roll one other usefull power.
But I'll probably throw more dice at some of these powers. No way am I going to cast psychic Shriek with just 2 dice if I'm facing an opponent that's highly susceptible to it or if I really need prescience. And now I'm not even thinking about other people denying.

If I want to cast every power I have (which I admit would be rare) reliably, I'd probably need a lot more dice than 14.

Conclusion:
14 warp charges are a lot... if most of your psykers are not casting but funneling their charges into other psykers. You really cannot just cast every power in your arsenal like you used to, which makes the psychic phase more engaging in my opinion.

 jasper76 wrote:
Don't like it. It doesn't fit with the flow of the game, and more importantly it in my view, it no longer feels like models on the table are popping off psychic powers, but rather the dude in the Led Zeppelin T-Shirt across from you is challenging you to a game of craps or something.

Would rather it was not there at all than there in its current state.

nailed it. that is exactly how I feel

DaPino wrote:
Even if throw a 6 on the psychic dice, I could use ALL of those dice with Ahriman alone. Should I find myself in range of some units with him, I'll probably want to cast about 9 to 12 witchfires with him

Double-standard much?

You said that the old psychic phase was bad because characters could cast all their powers, now you're complaining that you might not be able to cast 12 powers with the same damn character.

The biggest problem with the Psychic Phase as it current stands is that it doesn't scale well. The phase is balanced when each side has one, possibly two, psykers and a few warp charge dice base. It's when it comes to armies like Eldar, Tyranids, Grey Knights, and Chaos Daemons (and Librarius conclaves) that the phase starts to really get out of hand. If the opposing player hasn't brought a similar amount of psykers, the phase becomes incredibly one-sided.

I think one solution might be to allow for some kind of psychic defense available to every army, like the defender receiving bonus deny dice based on how many warp charges the opponent generates each turn. It would allow for more of a chance for armies without psykers to deny key powers and make things somewhat less one-sided when one side has vastly more psykers than the other.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
The biggest problem with the Psychic Phase as it current stands is that it doesn't scale well. The phase is balanced when each side has one, possibly two, psykers and a few warp charge dice base. It's when it comes to armies like Eldar, Tyranids, Grey Knights, and Chaos Daemons (and Librarius conclaves) that the phase starts to really get out of hand. If the opposing player hasn't brought a similar amount of psykers, the phase becomes incredibly one-sided.

I think one solution might be to allow for some kind of psychic defense available to every army, like the defender receiving bonus deny dice based on how many warp charges the opponent generates each turn. It would allow for more of a chance for armies without psykers to deny key powers and make things somewhat less one-sided when one side has vastly more psykers than the other.

This. I have an opponent whom has brought over 20 mastery levels to a 2K game. It was not a fun match.

DaPino wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Maybe in your experience. I usualy have something around ML 8-14 on the field as CSM and I never have enough dice to cast everything I want reliably.

Now I know GK's can get to a ridiculous amount of warp charges, but that's really what I mean when i said "taking it out of proportion". We rarely have excess dice, even among our GK players. Unless they specifically go out of their way to maximize their dice pool.

Haha such bs, 8-14 dice with the rr from familiers, and you can't cast what you want, I don't buy it mate.

To cast, throw x dice, on a 4+ the charge is harnessed.
To dispel, throw x dice, resist on 6+

Already the phase is skewed towards casting, then we have.

You must stop all the dice that have been harnessed, not just knock them below the casting value, all of the dice, so:

I want to cast invisibility or whatever, I have 12 dice so I'm gonna throw 5 at it, as you only have 2, I roll 4,5,6,1,2, you now cannot possibly dispel that power, but guess what, the other power I have is also amazing so I will throw 5 at that too, awww shame, still can't dispel, for my last trick I'll throw 2 dice at some useless spell, go ahead and stop it, oh, you need a 6+.... Nevermind.

So we have, massive ease of casting compared to dispelling, more dice for casters, no limit on power dice, so it literally is take as many psykers as you want, as your opponent won't be taking part in the psychic phase anyway.

A lot of the time I bring Ahriman, sorcerers, daemon princes and any mix thereof.
Let's say I've got Ahriman, a daemon prince and an allied sorcerer from a crimson slaughter, maybe even thousand sons because I've got Ahriman anyway and I want to get as much WC's as possible for this scenario.
That's not competitive (especially the 1k sons), but it's a lot of easy WC's. That's a combined ML of 12

Even if throw a 6 on the psychic dice, I could use ALL of those dice with Ahriman alone. Should I find myself in range of some units with him, I'll probably want to cast about 9 to 12 witchfires with him (because I will be fishing for witchfires and Biomancy, Tzeentch and Telepathy all have witchfire primarises). You can calculate yourself how many dice I'd need to reliably cast most of them.
I realize he's a special case, since he doesn't have a familiar and can cast the same spell multiple times, but it's just to illustrate that 14 charges in fact are not always enough to cast everything you want.

That said, even if I do not account for these abilities, 14 WC are not going to allow me to cast everything I want and certainly not everything I have that's useful.
So I've got 5 psykers. 1K sons can't roll on anything but Tzeentch, so they'll have Firestorm and some other power. Ahriman and the sorcerer (and possibly the DP depending on what the opponent brings) are probably going to roll once on telepathy for Shriek or twice if they get invis. If the sorcerer didn't roll invis, he'll have one roll left which I'm going to roll on divination (because crimson fist sorcerers can take a relic that allows them to do so). So DP is either going to roll all on biomancy or on the aformentioned Telepathy. 3 out of 6 powers from biomancy, I'll want to cast every turn probably, so unless I'm VERY unlucky I'll be using him every turn aswell.

So let's look at what I'd want to cast every turn, at least assuming fairly bad rolls:
3 witchfires from Ahriman (disregarding is abilities to cast them multiple times).
1 Divination power from the sorcerer (Even if I don't roll well, prescience is always good)
1 witchfire from the sorcerer's alligned god
2 witchfires, one each from the 1K sons respectively
1 power from the DP's alligned god

And again, this is the bare minimum of spells I'm 100% certain I'd have and probably could use every turn. Yeah, Tzeentch firestorm might not be a particularly strong psychic power, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to cast if I had the charges to do so. It's random but it also has potential.

3 witchfires without familiar, so 6 dice to reliably cast. 4 WC1 spells with spell familiar, another 4 dice needed to cast reliably. Probably prescience, which is WC2. I don't know how many dice you need tot throw at this to get it of reliably, but for the sake of not exaggerating, I'm going to say 3 (but I think it's probably 4). So assuming I rolled the worst of the worst powers, I'll need 13 dice in order to 'reliably cast' powers.
But this is the minimum of the minimum of powers I'd want to cast, only counting the powers that I'll have 99.99% of the time.

What if I roll Iron arm on the DP? +2 dice
What if I roll a 4th witchfire on Ahriman? +2 dice
What if I roll invisibility on the Sorc instead of a WC1 witchfire? +1 dice
What if I roll ....

And you know what? You'd be right to say that you can't rely on that happening because "what if" is not a valid argument. But it's very likely that I am at least going to roll one other usefull power.
But I'll probably throw more dice at some of these powers. No way am I going to cast psychic Shriek with just 2 dice if I'm facing an opponent that's highly susceptible to it or if I really need prescience. And now I'm not even thinking about other people denying.

If I want to cast every power I have (which I admit would be rare) reliably, I'd probably need a lot more dice than 14.

Conclusion:
14 warp charges are a lot... if most of your psykers are not casting but funneling their charges into other psykers. You really cannot just cast every power in your arsenal like you used to, which makes the psychic phase more engaging in my opinion.

Ok I patiently read your wall of text, and it's nonsense, I cannot honestly believe you are complaing that you have to pump dice into ahirman to cast 12! Powers, you at no point tried to respond to my points about how ridiculous it is for an opponent who has literally no defence against psy powers, let alone your 12 witch fires, nor did you address the massive imbalance of casting and dispelling.

All you have done is complain you have to use up some of your dice to cast your powers.

The psychic phase needs to go, or be replaced verbatim with the magic phase from 8th fantasy.

Ahirman, mastery level 4, adds +4 to casting, simple

2d6 warp charge points for magic phase, max 12, harnessing warp charge is channeling, adamantium will is magic resistance.

Invisibility could be a 13+ for unit, 18+ for 12" range to target friendlies, 22+ for 18"

It's really bloody simple.

7th edition psychics are kind of a mixed bag for me. I like that it's all tidily in one phase. It was way too easy to forget about your powers before, and I always felt like a dick for asking if I could go back and do them. I like that it gives a player something to do on their opponent's turn (rather than just waiting for them to finish and maybe declaring jinks or swinging in melee). I actually kind of enjoy the psychic phase's "minigame" feel.

That said, it's far from perfect.

As has been pointed out, differences in mastery levels can neuter one army's psykers. A librarian versus a lone farseer? Pretty reasonable. A librarian versus a seer council and a few extra guardians to boot? Poor librarian. This is pretty easily fixed by capping a player's WC pool at 10 or 15 or something.

The bonuses you can receive to deny the witch rolls (adamantine will, having a psyker, psychic hood, etc.) also has the consequence of sometimes making maledictions and witchfires feel too risky next to blessings, which is a shame.

I very much dislike random power generation as well. It's true that back when you could purchase your powers, you pretty much always took the same few powers instead of others, but that was a simple matter of internal balance that could easily be fixed by simply designing the powers to be on par with one another. Or at least priced more competitively. Having the option to take a dirt-cheap psyker with low-cost-low-effect powers can be neat. Pumping lots of points into a super psyker can be neat. Random powers means more random bookkeeping, and it takes away your ability to give personalized flavor to a character. It would be neat to give my librarian iron arm representing him temporarily mutating into his totemic beastial form and adding the strength of his mind to that of his physical body. If I just happen to roll leech essence instead, then suddenly I can't do this guy's iconic stunt. On the other hand, a guy who's all about sapping the life from those around him would be awesome. But then you roll iron arm or warpspeed, and he loses his shtick too.

I also don't like how likely I am to blow up my head if I want to have a good chance at casting a power. A warlock, for instance, always has a chance of killing himself if he rolls more than a single die at a power. As opposed to previously when his powers were automatic. If I roll a single die at a power, I have less than a 50% chance of casting a WC1 power (because of deny the witch). The whole "pump more power into it to have better odds of succeeding but also better odds of dying" thing is cool for humans and orks, but a millenia-old warlock should probably be a bit less prone to "workplace accidents" than that. I like the idea of giving everyone a sort of mini-ghost-helm rule that lets them spend unused warp charges to get rid of perils somehow. So you can pump tons of dice into safely and succesfully casting a power, or you can simply throw less psychic powers around, or you can throw lots of psychic powers around, but risk blowing your heads up.

I like it for one simple Reason: If I have my Rune Priest(s), I remember to use them for some other than Twin-Linking.

Wyldhunt wrote:
7th edition psychics are kind of a mixed bag for me. I like that it's all tidily in one phase. It was way too easy to forget about your powers before, and I always felt like a dick for asking if I could go back and do them. I like that it gives a player something to do on their opponent's turn (rather than just waiting for them to finish and maybe declaring jinks or swinging in melee). I actually kind of enjoy the psychic phase's "minigame" feel.

That said, it's far from perfect.

As has been pointed out, differences in mastery levels can neuter one army's psykers. A librarian versus a lone farseer? Pretty reasonable. A librarian versus a seer council and a few extra guardians to boot? Poor librarian. This is pretty easily fixed by capping a player's WC pool at 10 or 15 or something.

The bonuses you can receive to deny the witch rolls (adamantine will, having a psyker, psychic hood, etc.) also has the consequence of sometimes making maledictions and witchfires feel too risky next to blessings, which is a shame.

I very much dislike random power generation as well. It's true that back when you could purchase your powers, you pretty much always took the same few powers instead of others, but that was a simple matter of internal balance that could easily be fixed by simply designing the powers to be on par with one another. Or at least priced more competitively. Having the option to take a dirt-cheap psyker with low-cost-low-effect powers can be neat. Pumping lots of points into a super psyker can be neat. Random powers means more random bookkeeping, and it takes away your ability to give personalized flavor to a character. It would be neat to give my librarian iron arm representing him temporarily mutating into his totemic beastial form and adding the strength of his mind to that of his physical body. If I just happen to roll leech essence instead, then suddenly I can't do this guy's iconic stunt. On the other hand, a guy who's all about sapping the life from those around him would be awesome. But then you roll iron arm or warpspeed, and he loses his shtick too.

I also don't like how likely I am to blow up my head if I want to have a good chance at casting a power. A warlock, for instance, always has a chance of killing himself if he rolls more than a single die at a power. As opposed to previously when his powers were automatic. If I roll a single die at a power, I have less than a 50% chance of casting a WC1 power (because of deny the witch). The whole "pump more power into it to have better odds of succeeding but also better odds of dying" thing is cool for humans and orks, but a millenia-old warlock should probably be a bit less prone to "workplace accidents" than that. I like the idea of giving everyone a sort of mini-ghost-helm rule that lets them spend unused warp charges to get rid of perils somehow. So you can pump tons of dice into safely and succesfully casting a power, or you can simply throw less psychic powers around, or you can throw lots of psychic powers around, but risk blowing your heads up.

I could also support a cap on the number of warp charges a player could generate. I would put it at 12 for simplicity's sake (max result of 2D6). This would give people the ability to cast the big WC 3 powers while keeping things from getting too out of hand. I could also tie into my other idea of balancing for armies that have no psykers; maybe they roll 2D6 to get that amount of deny dice if their opponent has more than 6 Mastery Levels in total.

Funnily enough, I don't seem to have the same problem with Warlocks and perils that you do. Putting three dice into a power has only about a 7% chance of perils i.e. enough to happen but not often enough to be a serious nuisance. Or you could just cast with a Farseer, who has perils protection.

Rather than a cap on charges, I'd rather just either limit the number of powers a psyker can cast (as it was last edition) or increase the chances of Perils for each successive power cast in the same phase.

 Formosa wrote:

Ok I patiently read your wall of text, and it's nonsense, I cannot honestly believe you are complaing that you have to pump dice into ahirman to cast 12! Powers, you at no point tried to respond to my points about how ridiculous it is for an opponent who has literally no defence against psy powers, let alone your 12 witch fires, nor did you address the massive imbalance of casting and dispelling.

All you have done is complain you have to use up some of your dice to cast your powers.

The psychic phase needs to go, or be replaced verbatim with the magic phase from 8th fantasy.

Ahirman, mastery level 4, adds +4 to casting, simple

2d6 warp charge points for magic phase, max 12, harnessing warp charge is channeling, adamantium will is magic resistance.

Invisibility could be a 13+ for unit, 18+ for 12" range to target friendlies, 22+ for 18"

It's really bloody simple.

You told me it was BS that I cannot cast whatever I want with 14 dice. All I did was explain in depth why it is clearly not bs. I did not respond to your point about how I don't find it ridiculous for some armies to have trouble defending against psychic powers because I already have done so in another post in this thread, I just don't like repeating myself hence I didn't. But here I go (again).

But first!
You can't believe I complain about Ahriman not being able to cast 12 powers? Then don't. Because I never did. I used him as an example to show that I in fact cannot cast "whatever I want" with just 14 dice. I've specifically said about a dozen times that I LIKE the fact that I'm not able to no-brain 12 witchfires with a single psyker because I would never have enough warp charges. I find the psychic phase more engaging because, as I've said before, I cannot cast everything (as opposed to the last edition). I like choosing where I want to spend my dice and what few powers I want to go off instead of going down the list, casting all of them from start to finish.

I'll give you another EXAMPLE of how different the amount of psychic powers that are actually cast are. For the purpose of keeping the (already lengthy) post as short as possible, I'm going for WC1 spells only. Doing the math for WC2 and WC3 powers would prove my point further.
6th edition: ML 12 means 12 spells to cast, about 11pass their psychic test. You wouldn't even get to DTW a lot of them, so about 1 DTW on average. Result: On average, 10 powers have been cast successfully..
To have rougly the same chance at passing each psychic in 7th edition, compared to a Ld 10 psyker in 6th edition (~92%), you'd need to throw 4D6 at each WC1 power, which would at the very least require a number of WC's equal to your total ML times 4. That's stupidly unrealistic so I'll take 2D6 as a comparisson.
7th edition: ML 12, at least 2D6 thrown at each power (assuming all are WC1) for a 75% chance of passing. Depending on how many additional dice I rolled, that's 6-9 psychic tests, resulting in 5-7 succesfull casts. However, if I roll 6 on the 'amount of additional WC's", 1 power is probably going to be denied, even if the opposing player has got 0 psykers. So in the end 5-6 powers have been succesfully cast.

Now on to the part about why I don't think it's ridiculous that some armies don't have many dice to DTW in the current edition:
I don't think it is ridiculous because armies without psykers didn't have that much of a defence before the introduction of the psychic phase either. As I've shown above, the number of succesfully resolved psychic powers went down from the previous edition, so there are less psychic powers you have to suffer through defenselessly compared to the previous edition. Last edition, those armies had 0 chance of stopping blessings. You are right in saying that with the introduction of the new psychic phase, denying has gotten harder for maldictions and witchfire, especially for races without psykers. BUT since psychic powers are harder to cast compared to last edition, leading to a lower number of powers actually resolving, I consider the change a net gain for armies without a psychic defense.

So why did a lot of people start complaining only now? Because of the introduction of certain new powers. If I bring 12 mastery levels to the table and let everything roll on Malefic, I can guarantee that all of my psyker have "The summoning". If I want to have the same chance of passing as a 6th edition psyker, I'd need to chuck 9 dice at this power. But that's where the problem starts. Because I have so many psykers that can cast this power, I can afford to roll less dice, 6 preferably (65,63% chance of passing). So if I roll 6 additional dice, I can cast this power 3 times optimally, giving me an almost guaranteed 2 successful psychic tests. You only have a 6% on average to deny one of these casts, so that's negligible, so I'll get 2 new units for free every turn.

The REAL problem isn't the psychic phase and how it works, but rather the psychic powers being generated. If we were working with 7th edition powers under 6th edition rules for psychic powers, people would spam ML3 sorcerers in droves since every ML3 psyker on the field means a 75g~92% chance to summon a new unit of daemons, as opposed to 65% for every 6 mastery levels on the field. I have to admit, certain things would no longer be possible, Daemon factory with pink horror spam for example. ON THE OTHER HAND, you really and I mean REALLY wouldn't want to face 1 lord of change, 4 Heralds of Tzeentch (on disks of course) and 3 daemon princes of Tzeentch should 6th edition psychic rules still be in place. That's 1760 points of my army and I only have enough points for 2 troops of Nurglings? Let's see if I give a gak while I reliably gak out 6 units (because statistically, 2 are going to fail with daemons only being Ld 8 and 9) of daemons each turn. Best part: you wouldn't be able to deny a thing because you couldn't DTW vs things that didn't explicitly targeted your units.

The psychic phase doesn't need to change one bit, they just need to tweak some powers. Summoning should by no means be the Malefic primaris. They should've gone for that witchfire.....

 vipoid wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Even if throw a 6 on the psychic dice, I could use ALL of those dice with Ahriman alone. Should I find myself in range of some units with him, I'll probably want to cast about 9 to 12 witchfires with him

Double-standard much?

You said that the old psychic phase was bad because characters could cast all their powers, now you're complaining that you might not be able to cast 12 powers with the same damn character.

Quoting the second paragraph of this post because apparently it can't be stated enough, even though I did explicitly in the original post:

You can't believe I complain about Ahriman? Then don't. Because I didn't. I used him as an example to show that I in fact cannot cast "whatever I want" with just 14 dice. I've specifically said about a dozen times that I LIKE the fact that I'm not able to no-brain 12 witchfires with a single psyker because I would never have enough warp charges. I find the psychic phase more engaging because, as I've said before, I cannot cast everything (as opposed to the last edition). I need to choose where I want to spend my dice and what few powers I want to go off instead of going down the list of powers casting all of them from start to finish.

I think you've missed the point.

Your argument was that the 7th edition psychic phase was better, because in 5th psykers could just cast all their powers.

But, now you're talking about Ahriman casting 12 powers. The fact that that is even possible invalidates your entire argument. I'm not sure a 5th edition CSM list could cast 12 psychic powers from its entire army, let alone from 1 model.

You've basically said "psykers could cast too many powers in 5th. Now, instead of being able to cast 3 powers, Ahriman is limited to only being able to cast 9-12 powers." Do you really not see that this kills your argument dead?

At the end of the day, unless you play as one of 3 factions (Eldar, Grey Knights, Chaos) the Psychic phase just sucks.

 vipoid wrote:
I think you've missed the point.

Your argument was that the 7th edition psychic phase was better, because in 5th psykers could just cast all their powers.

But, now you're talking about Ahriman casting 12 powers. The fact that that is even possible invalidates your entire argument. I'm not sure a 5th edition CSM list could cast 12 psychic powers from its entire army, let alone from 1 model.

You've basically said "psykers could cast too many powers in 5th. Now, instead of being able to cast 3 powers, Ahriman is limited to only being able to cast 9-12 powers." Do you really not see that this kills your argument dead?

The one who is clearly missing the point and all logic is you. In order to cast 12 powers with Ahriman, I need 48 warp charges, something that is almost, if not completely, impossible in a bound 1850 list.
And even should it be possible, that means using 48 warp charges to cast 12 spells. You know how many spells I would be able to cast with that if 6th edition rules were still in effect? 48 psychic powers, a number so ludicrously that I could not possibly hope to find a use for every spell. The reason why we're seeing more and higher mastery levels in games (10+ as opposed to less than 10) is because we need more warp charges (so psykers) in order to cast as many powers as we used to do in 6th edition. Bottom line: It does not matter if I could theoretically cast 12 powers with a single guy. I will NEVER have enough warp charges to do so!

And bloody hell, I just typed half a page that shows black on white that the number of psychic powers that are actively being cast in 7th edition psychic phase is far smaller than the number of powers being cast under 6th edition psychic power rules.
Seems I will need to put is as plain and simple as I possible can:

In 6th edition, if your army had ML12, your army had 12 powers. Your psykers could cast 11 powers succesfully (12 for CSM). Deny the witch = -1. AVERAGE NUMBER OF POWERS CAST EACH TURN: 10 (11 for CSM)
In 7th edition, If your army has ML12, you army has X amount of powers where X is greater than 12. Your psykers can cast about 5-7 of them successfully (5-8 if you happen to be CSM with spell familiars). DTW = -0 or -1 depending on the dice roll at the start of the phase. AVERAGE NUMBER OF POWERS CAST EACH: 5.5 (6 for CSM)

Who casts the most powers per turn? The 6th edition player or the 7th edition player? If you cannot tell, you're either blind or willfully ignorant. Even so, I'll just tell you because you seem incapable of basic mathematical formulas. 10 is greater than 6 so the 6th edition player can cast the most psychic powers each turn. 6th edition psykers could cast 100% of the spells available to them. 7th edition psykers cannot even cast even manage 50% unless they receive dice from other psykers (but that would means those psykers casting 0% of their powers).

And this is probably the tenth time already, but I'm going to have to say it yet again because your skull seems thicker than an Ork's: I think the 7th psychic phase is more engaging because even though my psykers know more psychic powers, they can actually cast far less powers than before and I need to strategize about what powers I need in effect and which I will not cast because it simply is impossible.

 vipoid wrote:

I'm not sure a 5th edition CSM list could cast 12 psychic powers from its entire army, let alone from 1 model.

And this is where you are utterly... ... WRONG. The only reason you didn't see people have armies that could cast 15+ psychic powers is because you simply cannot hope to find a use for 15 randomly generated powers.
People were really only looking for around 5 powers or less to cast each turn. The fact of the matter is that in 6th edition, you only needed about 2 decent psykers to cast that number of spells whereas you need far more to cast the same amount of psychic powers reliably in 7th edition.

Thank you for demonstrating how you've missed the point *again*.

At no point did I reference 6th edition as comparison. I compared casting psychic powers in 7th edition to casting powers in 5th edition .

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
7th edition psychics are kind of a mixed bag for me. I like that it's all tidily in one phase. It was way too easy to forget about your powers before, and I always felt like a dick for asking if I could go back and do them. I like that it gives a player something to do on their opponent's turn (rather than just waiting for them to finish and maybe declaring jinks or swinging in melee). I actually kind of enjoy the psychic phase's "minigame" feel.

That said, it's far from perfect.

As has been pointed out, differences in mastery levels can neuter one army's psykers. A librarian versus a lone farseer? Pretty reasonable. A librarian versus a seer council and a few extra guardians to boot? Poor librarian. This is pretty easily fixed by capping a player's WC pool at 10 or 15 or something.

The bonuses you can receive to deny the witch rolls (adamantine will, having a psyker, psychic hood, etc.) also has the consequence of sometimes making maledictions and witchfires feel too risky next to blessings, which is a shame.

I very much dislike random power generation as well. It's true that back when you could purchase your powers, you pretty much always took the same few powers instead of others, but that was a simple matter of internal balance that could easily be fixed by simply designing the powers to be on par with one another. Or at least priced more competitively. Having the option to take a dirt-cheap psyker with low-cost-low-effect powers can be neat. Pumping lots of points into a super psyker can be neat. Random powers means more random bookkeeping, and it takes away your ability to give personalized flavor to a character. It would be neat to give my librarian iron arm representing him temporarily mutating into his totemic beastial form and adding the strength of his mind to that of his physical body. If I just happen to roll leech essence instead, then suddenly I can't do this guy's iconic stunt. On the other hand, a guy who's all about sapping the life from those around him would be awesome. But then you roll iron arm or warpspeed, and he loses his shtick too.

I also don't like how likely I am to blow up my head if I want to have a good chance at casting a power. A warlock, for instance, always has a chance of killing himself if he rolls more than a single die at a power. As opposed to previously when his powers were automatic. If I roll a single die at a power, I have less than a 50% chance of casting a WC1 power (because of deny the witch). The whole "pump more power into it to have better odds of succeeding but also better odds of dying" thing is cool for humans and orks, but a millenia-old warlock should probably be a bit less prone to "workplace accidents" than that. I like the idea of giving everyone a sort of mini-ghost-helm rule that lets them spend unused warp charges to get rid of perils somehow. So you can pump tons of dice into safely and succesfully casting a power, or you can simply throw less psychic powers around, or you can throw lots of psychic powers around, but risk blowing your heads up.

I could also support a cap on the number of warp charges a player could generate. I would put it at 12 for simplicity's sake (max result of 2D6). This would give people the ability to cast the big WC 3 powers while keeping things from getting too out of hand. I could also tie into my other idea of balancing for armies that have no psykers; maybe they roll 2D6 to get that amount of deny dice if their opponent has more than 6 Mastery Levels in total.

Funnily enough, I don't seem to have the same problem with Warlocks and perils that you do. Putting three dice into a power has only about a 7% chance of perils i.e. enough to happen but not often enough to be a serious nuisance. Or you could just cast with a Farseer, who has perils protection.

So in other words, you'd be in full support of nerfing Daemons back into a joke army, and making Tzeentch all but unplayable? Thanks, as a primarily Tzeentch Daemon player, I think this is about the worst kind of 'fix' that's been thrown about since 7th dropped...

Deal with it. Psychic dominance is the biggest strength of my entire codex. (minus Khorne, because he's not cool enough!) If you limit the one phase my army is meant to dominate, then all you're doing is effectively telling Daemon players in general that we're not allowed to have toys because... "Reasons."

Or how about this; I don't think the Shooting phase is very fair because my codex doesn't have many shooting options. It's no fun for me to be unable to compete in almost every game, while my opponent gets to spend 15-20min or more blowing chunks out of my army.
Thus, we should limit all shooting to only a max of 40 dice per turn, because then it's more balanced for my army that typically has maybe a dozen or so shots/templates.



Yes the current Psychic phase is far from perfect, but it's still better than 5th or 6th edition's versions... Without a re-write to bring it into a system more akin to 8th ed's Magic phase from Fantasy, I've found that a good way to dial back the potential power of psyker heavy armies over non-psyker armies is to simply limit the number of powers a Psyker can attempt to generate equal to his/its Mastery Lv.
Thus, a Lv1 Psyker can only ever attempt to cast a single power, while a Lv3 can attempt up to 3 powers, etc...

Now you have to be careful in which powers you;
a) can use to bait out Deny dice
b) *really* want/need to go off this turn
And there's no instance of a super psyker like Ahriman or Kairos potentially firing off 9-12 powers and decimating half the opposing army.

 vipoid wrote:
Thank you for demonstrating how you've missed the point *again*.

At no point did I reference 6th edition as comparison. I compared casting psychic powers in 7th edition to casting powers in 5th edition .

I'm sorry.... what now? I thought SURELY you must have made a typo there and not suddenly change subject in order to save face.
From the first post I made (on which you commented and started this), I have been comparing 7th to 6th edition and nothing else. My posts have NOT ONCE mentioned 5th edition.
Every time you commented on my 7th to 6th compariso and now, suddenly, you change topic to 5th edition (and you even go as far as claiming that I've said anything about 5th edition).

And let's go down with you in this crazy rabit hole for a second and pretend I DID say something about 5th edition and compare it to 7th. In 7th edition, bringing 2 ML3 psykers in 7th allow you to cast 3 powers on average while 2 5th edition psykers would have managed at least 2 (or more. for example: BA librarians could use 2 each turn and Mephiston could even use 3). So at least, the number of powers being cast is comparable.
he only thing that's really made a difference is the way powers are generated, which has got nothing to do with how the psychic phase works in and of itself.

So tell me, why start complaining NOW about how you're so defenseless against the mechanics behind psychic powers, even tough every number shows that a smaller amount of psychic powers is coming your way than during the 2 years 6th edition was there.

You are quite frankly not worth my time. I can deal with people telling me I'm wrong because my numbers are wrong or because I did not take into account X or Y. What I cannot deal with however, is people indulging themselves in willful ignorance. I have shown you numbers proving that armies without psykers are not any more defenseless to psychic powers than they were before. I have shown you numbers that I actually cast a significant lesser number of powers compared to 6th and at the very least a comparable number of powers to 5th edition psykers (but probably more). You even went as far as randomly changing the edition we were talking about, because there was zero indication I was talking about 5th edition in the posts you answered to. You try to make bs arguments about me missing some kind of points your making, while you're clearly not. You're just dancing around every fact I provide you with.
I have told you time and time again that I like 7th's way of doing this because you choose what's best to cast from what's available instead of casting everything you've got.

Finally, I've got nothing left to say to you (unless, of course, you've something meaningful to add to this discussion. I'm always open for that). So I'll let Jesse Cox take it from here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tgVlxkf4Kg#t=105s (in this thread)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Deal with it. Psychic dominance is the biggest strength of my entire codex. (minus Khorne, because he's not cool enough!) If you limit the one phase my army is meant to dominate, then all you're doing is effectively telling Daemon players in general that we're not allowed to have toys because... "Reasons."

Or how about this; I don't think the Shooting phase is very fair because my codex doesn't have many shooting options. It's no fun for me to be unable to compete in almost every game, while my opponent gets to spend 15-20min or more blowing chunks out of my army.
Thus, we should limit all shooting to only a max of 40 dice per turn, because then it's more balanced for my army that typically has maybe a dozen or so shots/templates.

Quoted for truth.

DaPino wrote:

I'm sorry.... what now? I thought SURELY you must have made a typo there and not suddenly change subject in order to save face.
From the first post I made (on which you commented and started this), I have been comparing 7th to 6th edition and nothing else. My posts have NOT ONCE mentioned 5th edition.

So, why did you feel the need to keep arguing against me when I only ever compared the 7th edition psychic phase to the 5th edition one?

Excuse me? I was talking to Formosa, making a comparison to 6th edition, not when I was talking to you. You asked me why I found the current psychic phase more engaging, and I did, nothing more and nothing less.

You were the one that jumped in the conversation about 6th edition with this comment:

 vipoid wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Even if throw a 6 on the psychic dice, I could use ALL of those dice with Ahriman alone. Should I find myself in range of some units with him, I'll probably want to cast about 9 to 12 witchfires with him

Double-standard much?

You said that the old psychic phase was bad because characters could cast all their powers, now you're complaining that you might not be able to cast 12 powers with the same damn character.

Random powers kills any fun the game could have. If I wanted to get a random payoff from rolling dice I'd play craps.

DaPino wrote:
Excuse me? I was talking to Formosa, making a comparison to 6th edition, not when I was talking to you. You asked me why I found the current psychic phase more engaging, and I did, nothing more and nothing less.

You were the one that jumped in the conversation about 6th edition with this comment:

 vipoid wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Even if throw a 6 on the psychic dice, I could use ALL of those dice with Ahriman alone. Should I find myself in range of some units with him, I'll probably want to cast about 9 to 12 witchfires with him

Double-standard much?

You said that the old psychic phase was bad because characters could cast all their powers, now you're complaining that you might not be able to cast 12 powers with the same damn character.

Except that you'd already been arguing with me, and the post you quoted was following on from that.

Going back to this:

DaPino wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

I get that, but why did it need it's own phase? Surely you could have done this with the 5th edition powers by just having all powers cast at the beginning of the shooting phase (making some minor changes to duration where necessary)?

First of all, I never played 5th edition, so I don't know how they handled powers during that edition.

But what does it matter whether it's in a seperate phase or not? Should they announce the following tommorow: "there's no longer a psychic phase, but now you cast all your powers at the beginning of the shooting phase", how would that functionally change the game? it would still take the same time to actually go through the tests and stuff.
Or do you mean they shouldn't have changed the mechanic of the Ld tests, becauseTHAT was a boring mechanic in my opinion. You might as well have lined up your spells, rolled a D6 and randomly allocated which one spell didn't go through, because most psykers were Ld 10 anyway.

Emphasis mine. That was the post *you* responded to.
I made it abundantly clear that I was comparing psykers in 7th edition to psykers in 5th edition. *You* decided to argue anyway.
*You* were the one who started this argument in the first place.
*You* somehow managed to assume that, since I only ever referenced 5th edition, I must be talking about 6th edition.
*You* mad the mistake. Don't blame me because you don't know the difference between 5 and 6.

I'm not arguing that I first responded to you. But I will however argue that I didn't argue about 6th edition specifically to you until I responded to my reaction to Formosa. My responses in the early conversation between us wasn't in any way, shape or form a direct comparison to other editions.
That was purely about whether psychic powers needed a seperate phase. It was not a conversation about whether psychic powers were stronger/left you more defenseless during edition X or Y.

And in the end, I don't even care whether I was the one who made 'the mistake' or whether it was you. I gave you enough proof that in both 6th and 5th edition, psychic powers were just as much a threat to any army without psykers. People were just as if not more, defenseless when compared 7th edition and that's really all I wanted to get out there when someone said the psychic phase is bad because "armies without psykers are screwed".
But instead of stopping for a second and doing some math for themselves, people just found it easier to argue because "they never experienced X or saw Y happen in their games".

That said and all, I could perfectly translate just about anything I've said to 5th edition. You can cast more powers, more easily (given that there's an equal amount of psykers on each side) and denying was even harder back then because you couldn't even deny half of the powers being cast. The psychic phase is not inherently flawed from a mechanical perspective. Some of the powers are just to easily accessible and sometimes that's because of the rulebook (Summoning) and sometimes that's due to some codex specific rule (Tigurius), which leads to abuse of certain combos, but that's hardly a new thing within the hobby and would have happened regardless of whether they had changed the way psychic powers worked to 5th edition or to the system they're currently using. I even gave you proof that it would be even worse if we went back to a system like 6th (or 5th) edition where psychic powers were based on Ld checks and denying was impossible without being targeted.

DaPino wrote:
I'm not arguing that I first responded to you. But I will however argue that I did not say anything about 6th edition until I responded to Formosa. My responses in the early conversation between us wasn't in any way, shape or form a direct comparisson to other editions.

That certainly wasn't the impression I got. Especially since most of my posts were comparing the current psychic phase to 5th in some way.

But, whatever, let's move on.

DaPino wrote:

That said and all, I could perfectly translate just about anything I've said to 5th edition. You can cast more powers, more easily (given that there's an equal amount of psykers on each side) and denying was even harder back then because you couldn't even deny half of the powers being cast.

See, that's exactly what I was arguing against earlier.

You say that you could cast more powers, but I've yet to see any evidence of that. In fact, you yourself contradicted that when you spoke of casting 12 powers with Ahriman. You're casting more powers with one model in 7th than most 5th edition lists would be able to cast with their entire army. Even when our CSM player brought Thousand Sons lists in 5th, he still wouldn't be close to casting 12 powers with them.

And, as I said earlier, denying was far less important because the powers tended to be considerably less powerful than the ones in 6th/7th.

 vipoid wrote:

DaPino wrote:
I'm not arguing that I first responded to you. But I will however argue that I did not say anything about 6th edition until I responded to Formosa. My responses in the early conversation between us wasn't in any way, shape or form a direct comparisson to other editions.

That certainly wasn't the impression I got. Especially since most of my posts were comparing the current psychic phase to 5th in some way.

But, whatever, let's move on.

DaPino wrote:

That said and all, I could perfectly translate just about anything I've said to 5th edition. You can cast more powers, more easily (given that there's an equal amount of psykers on each side) and denying was even harder back then because you couldn't even deny half of the powers being cast.

See, that's exactly what I was arguing against earlier.

You say that you could cast more powers, but I've yet to see any evidence of that. In fact, you yourself contradicted that when you spoke of casting 12 powers with Ahriman. You're casting more powers with one model in 7th than most 5th edition lists would be able to cast with their entire army. Even when our CSM player brought Thousand Sons lists in 5th, he still wouldn't be close to casting 12 powers with them.

And, as I said earlier, denying was far less important because the powers tended to be considerably less powerful than the ones in 6th/7th.

What I meant was that 'in theory' you could cast 12 powers with Ahriman because he can reliably get 3 witchfires which he can cast 3 times.However, in order to succesfully manifest even 9 of those, you'd need 24 dice. That's not a common number. As I've said before that maybe I'll get to ML12 so if I'm very lucky I've got 18 dice. But, you need to take into account that in order to get to ML12, I'm bringing 5 psykers. Using 18 dice, I'll be casting 9 powers (out of which 7 are succesful) at the absolute most (since I won't throw ever throw one dice at a power, that's just wasteful). However, oftentimes I'll use 3 or even 4 dice when casting certain powers (if I'm playing Tau, I'll definately throw 3 dice on things like psychic Shriek). Using Ahriman, a sorcerer, a DP and 2 squads of thousand sons, I think (haven't counted) I could (given an unlimited amount of dice) cast clost to 40 powers (including force). That sounds absolutely crazy bs, but the games paradigm changed from "Which 2 powers out of X do I want to bring to the battle" (for each psyker) to "Which 1-2 powers out of X randomly generated powers do I want to cast".

Looking at BA and GK (the only armies I've ever seen a 5th edition codex off, altough GK might not be the best of examples so i'll keep to BA), bringing 2 psykers could allow you to cast 5 powers easily aswell with a near 0 zero chance of a power being denied. If memory serves me right, allies were not a thing, so bringing multiple FoC's to spam HQ psykers was definitely not possible. But that's not a problem that's inherent to how the psychic phase works, is it?

In terms of output (actual number powers flying around each term), very little has changed. What has changed is that previously (5th edition), you could choose what powers you brought to the battle, which provided certainty, but was rigrous. Right now in 7th edition, you randomly generate powers, so you're never 100% certain of what you're going to get, but you gain a lot of flexibility because even tough you can only cast 1-2 powers each turn, you've got a bigger belt of tools and I like that because I'll (almost) never be stuck in a situation where no power is useless.
I hope that makes sense.

I'm not sure whether I agree with you on the power level of the powers, at least not across the board. BA had some pretty sick powers, giving characters Str10 was no joke and I remember them having an ability that forced Ld checks on -2 leadership. That said, I admit there's certain powers that are on a completely different power level. Summoning and invisibility are definitely above and beyond any psychic powers i've heard of. But the thing is, power creep is not unique to psychic powers. Lots of things have become stronger on average when compared to previous editions.

Ghazkuul wrote:At the end of the day, if you play against one of 4 factions (Eldar, Grey Knights, Chaos and Tyranids) the Psychic phase just sucks.

Fixed that for you. The psychic phase does need more balance to give people a change of standing up to the onslaught of powers from these armies.

Experiment 626 wrote:So in other words, you'd be in full support of nerfing Daemons back into a joke army, and making Tzeentch all but unplayable? Thanks, as a primarily Tzeentch Daemon player, I think this is about the worst kind of 'fix' that's been thrown about since 7th dropped...

Deal with it. Psychic dominance is the biggest strength of my entire codex. (minus Khorne, because he's not cool enough!) If you limit the one phase my army is meant to dominate, then all you're doing is effectively telling Daemon players in general that we're not allowed to have toys because... "Reasons."

Or how about this; I don't think the Shooting phase is very fair because my codex doesn't have many shooting options. It's no fun for me to be unable to compete in almost every game, while my opponent gets to spend 15-20min or more blowing chunks out of my army.
Thus, we should limit all shooting to only a max of 40 dice per turn, because then it's more balanced for my army that typically has maybe a dozen or so shots/templates.



Yes the current Psychic phase is far from perfect, but it's still better than 5th or 6th edition's versions... Without a re-write to bring it into a system more akin to 8th ed's Magic phase from Fantasy, I've found that a good way to dial back the potential power of psyker heavy armies over non-psyker armies is to simply limit the number of powers a Psyker can attempt to generate equal to his/its Mastery Lv.
Thus, a Lv1 Psyker can only ever attempt to cast a single power, while a Lv3 can attempt up to 3 powers, etc...

Now you have to be careful in which powers you;
a) can use to bait out Deny dice
b) *really* want/need to go off this turn
And there's no instance of a super psyker like Ahriman or Kairos potentially firing off 9-12 powers and decimating half the opposing army.

I'm not experienced with playing either with or against Chaos Daemons, so I'm sorry if I offended you. I really do like how the psychic phase currently works as opposed to 6th edition because, as you pointed out, there's now a lot more strategy to it. My comment about capping warp charges at some number was more of a band-aid to the current problem of imbalance vs. certain armies. In my opinion, it would be better if the phase was FAwed to make it so that psykers can only cast as many powers per turn as they have mastery levels, like under the 6th edition rules.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

I'm not experienced with playing either with or against Chaos Daemons, so I'm sorry if I offended you. I really do like how the psychic phase currently works as opposed to 6th edition because, as you pointed out, there's now a lot more strategy to it. My comment about capping warp charges at some number was more of a band-aid to the current problem of imbalance vs. certain armies. In my opinion, it would be better if the phase was FAwed to make it so that psykers can only cast as many powers per turn as they have mastery levels, like under the 6th edition rules.

I don't think limiting psychic powers to ML is not going to solve anything. Have you seen many psykers cast more spells than their mastery level lately, apart from maybe the occasional ML1 psyker casting two powers? Daemon factories and invisible centurionstars, arguably the biggest problem children the psychic phase has spawned, would still work, because all you really need for them to work is one power.

I say revert invisibility back to what it was (stealth + shrouded). Secondly, swap "The summoning" with "cursed earth". This would give people an incentive to roll on Stanctic (for banishment) and because not a lot of armies apart from CSM and Chaos daemons would benefit from the primaris, it would be a higher risk for people to roll on malefic, essentially shutting down daemon factories. Swapping it out for "Dark flame" would be an alternative because Cursed earth might be too much of a buff for Chaos daemons. Every daemon player out there would surely go out of his way to give his entire army a 4+ invul.

Alternatively, put a limit on the amount of units that can be summoned each turn through conjuration type psychic powers. I think summoning is cool, but in the end you're basicly getting free points for your army and I think that needs a serious limiting factor.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Ghazkuul wrote:At the end of the day, if you play against one of 4 factions (Eldar, Grey Knights, Chaos and Tyranids) the Psychic phase just sucks.

Fixed that for you. The psychic phase does need more balance to give people a change of standing up to the onslaught of powers from these armies.

Experiment 626 wrote:So in other words, you'd be in full support of nerfing Daemons back into a joke army, and making Tzeentch all but unplayable? Thanks, as a primarily Tzeentch Daemon player, I think this is about the worst kind of 'fix' that's been thrown about since 7th dropped...

Deal with it. Psychic dominance is the biggest strength of my entire codex. (minus Khorne, because he's not cool enough!) If you limit the one phase my army is meant to dominate, then all you're doing is effectively telling Daemon players in general that we're not allowed to have toys because... "Reasons."

Or how about this; I don't think the Shooting phase is very fair because my codex doesn't have many shooting options. It's no fun for me to be unable to compete in almost every game, while my opponent gets to spend 15-20min or more blowing chunks out of my army.
Thus, we should limit all shooting to only a max of 40 dice per turn, because then it's more balanced for my army that typically has maybe a dozen or so shots/templates.



Yes the current Psychic phase is far from perfect, but it's still better than 5th or 6th edition's versions... Without a re-write to bring it into a system more akin to 8th ed's Magic phase from Fantasy, I've found that a good way to dial back the potential power of psyker heavy armies over non-psyker armies is to simply limit the number of powers a Psyker can attempt to generate equal to his/its Mastery Lv.
Thus, a Lv1 Psyker can only ever attempt to cast a single power, while a Lv3 can attempt up to 3 powers, etc...

Now you have to be careful in which powers you;
a) can use to bait out Deny dice
b) *really* want/need to go off this turn
And there's no instance of a super psyker like Ahriman or Kairos potentially firing off 9-12 powers and decimating half the opposing army.

I'm not experienced with playing either with or against Chaos Daemons, so I'm sorry if I offended you. I really do like how the psychic phase currently works as opposed to 6th edition because, as you pointed out, there's now a lot more strategy to it. My comment about capping warp charges at some number was more of a band-aid to the current problem of imbalance vs. certain armies. In my opinion, it would be better if the phase was FAwed to make it so that psykers can only cast as many powers per turn as they have mastery levels, like under the 6th edition rules.

I'd be okay with them limiting the number of powers you can cast to your mastery level, but that's one more thing to keep track of. It's simple enough with an ML 1 librarian, but it can be a lot to juggle with things like farseers or even mixed units like multiple GK HQs in a squad that already has at least one power of its own. I like the idea, but it wouldn't be my go-to solution. Especially considering my eldar tend not to even try to cast half their powers most games anyway making it sort of moot in their case.

@Experiment626:
Regarding Tzeentch, my solution would be to simply make Tzeentch dakka into shooting attacks. Pretty sure it used to be that way, and I know my mandrakes do magical shooting attacks as, well, shooting attacks, so there's precedent. Maybe give them the option to sacrifice psychic dice in the psychic phase to give themselves "Tzeentch Tokens" that can be spent in the shooting phase. Sort of like psychic markerlights. You burn four psychic dice (possibly rolling them in the same fashion you'd harness warp charges) to get your Tzeentch Tokens. Then you'd spend those tokens for added effects like rerolls of 1 on to-hit rolls, bonus strength, bonus range, etc.

The idea isn't to gimp Tzeentch; it's just that armies (like Tzeentch ones) that generate a lot of warp charges or otherwise dominate the psychic phase create problems of the unfun kind for other armies. That poor librarian that someone splashed in because he wanted to do a small something in the psychic phase is essentially wasted points against your army because his odds of getting off a power (especially a witchfire or malediction) are so extremely small. The psychic phase is, in my opinion, at its best when you and your opponent have a similar number of warp charges. The caster still has the advantage (harnessing on 4+ or better), but his opponent is guaranteed to have enough dice to have a reasonable chance of shutting down at least one of those powers. As opposed to a 30 dice VS 5 dice type scenario where the 30 dice player can pretty reliably deny all the casting of the 5 dice player.

You pointed out that others dominate the shooting phase because you have virtually no shooting. Having tons of Warp Charges is like if the enemy having guns made your guns not work. Imagine a choppy army (say tyranids) bringing in a shooty unit (say a dakkafex), and then having their guns simply not work because their Tau opponent had a lot more guns than they did. Not because their dakka tyrant got shot off the board. The Tau player's sheer amount of shootyness meant that the Tyranid player wasn't allowed to do any shooting in the shooting phase because his army wasn't as good at it.