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The Star Wars movies have always had problems when it comes to The Time Between (X) and (Y), so really this isn't a surprise!

Hopefully, I just don't buy it. Silencing it is one thing but forgetting is another. When Jedi literally ruled alongside the senate for a thousand years... (that is a loooooong time) and played a huge role in the creation of the empire it seems hard to swallow that by episode 4 they have forgotten it. Then by Episode 6 all the rebels are saying "may the force be with you" left right and center only for them to forget it again by episode 7.

Going by the movies this doesn't feel right. If anything after their initial thousand year republic thing most people would think the jedi are still doing their thing if news travels so slowly.

 d-usa wrote:
I'm going to throw my hat in the ring and join the "Luke Skywalker IS included in the poster" crowd.

I'm unfamiliar with this...

The was one of the theories, but it's unlikely. The next common theory is the Ren is his son.

I got more enjoyment out of that couple of minutes of footage than I did out of the entire Prequel Trilogy.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hopefully, I just don't buy it. Silencing it is one thing but forgetting is another. When Jedi literally ruled alongside the senate for a thousand years... (that is a loooooong time) and played a huge role in the creation of the empire it seems hard to swallow that by episode 4 they have forgotten it. Then by Episode 6 all the rebels are saying "may the force be with you" left right and center only for them to forget it again by episode 7.

Going by the movies this doesn't feel right. If anything after their initial thousand year republic thing most people would think the jedi are still doing their thing if news travels so slowly.

Again, not something the vast majority of people would have had contact with. Sure, people on Coruscant would have been able to see the Jedi Temple but thats the most they would have had, but that was 80 years ago and the vast majority of people in the galaxy wouldn't have had even that when it was still around.

At this point, we've had 4 generations since there was anything approaching a major Jedi presence. Very few people are still alive would would remember encountering a Jedi, except for those who worked directly with the Emperor, Vader, or Luke. And thats a small number of people. And the Rebellion, while they toss out "May the Force be with you" its really nothing more than a slogan to them. Its calling on the memory of the old Republic. Only for a few does the Force actually exist. And the Rebellion is a fairly large organization, most of its members will not have met or even come close to meeting Luke. They'll have been told that Luke exists and is a Jedi, but is it real to them? Not unless they've met him and seen him in action. Only the upper leadership will appreciate his existence.

They may broadcast his existence to raise morale, but most people will never see him. And since its just him there is even less chance of meeting a Jedi now than there was back then.

While the Jedi were active, there would have been enough tales of their exploits to keep the rumors and legend of their existence alive. But when they were gone its easy for people to forget something that was never more than a legend. Especially if the government is doing its best to delete all trace of them.

What about the Storm Troopers and Imperial Army/Navy? Surely some of the older officers dating back to the clone wars would remember! We still have the case of only really the officers meeting any Jedi during the Clone War, and the troopers who personally worked with them of course. But its been 80 years. Clones don't live very long, so they're all dead at this point. At this point, everyone in the army will be several generations removed from what happened. And since there haven't been any Jedi, nobody is going to be talking about them. Only the upper echelon will have any intelligence, but even for them its just a ghost of the past.

 insaniak wrote:
The was one of the theories, but it's unlikely. The next common theory is the Ren is his son.

It's unlikely, but I could see it happening.

I'm just going to make my theory even wilder though:



Edit:

Also, is there just a hint of "Vader Breath" faded in the background music when you see his mask?

I am so freaking pumped!

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hopefully, I just don't buy it. Silencing it is one thing but forgetting is another. When Jedi literally ruled alongside the senate for a thousand years... (that is a loooooong time) and played a huge role in the creation of the empire it seems hard to swallow that by episode 4 they have forgotten it. Then by Episode 6 all the rebels are saying "may the force be with you" left right and center only for them to forget it again by episode 7.

Going by the movies this doesn't feel right. If anything after their initial thousand year republic thing most people would think the jedi are still doing their thing if news travels so slowly.

Again, not something the vast majority of people would have had contact with. Sure, people on Coruscant would have been able to see the Jedi Temple but thats the most they would have had, but that was 80 years ago and the vast majority of people in the galaxy wouldn't have had even that when it was still around.

At this point, we've had 4 generations since there was anything approaching a major Jedi presence. Very few people are still alive would would remember encountering a Jedi, except for those who worked directly with the Emperor, Vader, or Luke. And thats a small number of people. And the Rebellion, while they toss out "May the Force be with you" its really nothing more than a slogan to them. Its calling on the memory of the old Republic. Only for a few does the Force actually exist. And the Rebellion is a fairly large organization, most of its members will not have met or even come close to meeting Luke. They'll have been told that Luke exists and is a Jedi, but is it real to them? Not unless they've met him and seen him in action. Only the upper leadership will appreciate his existence.

They may broadcast his existence to raise morale, but most people will never see him. And since its just him there is even less chance of meeting a Jedi now than there was back then.

While the Jedi were active, there would have been enough tales of their exploits to keep the rumors and legend of their existence alive. But when they were gone its easy for people to forget something that was never more than a legend. Especially if the government is doing its best to delete all trace of them.

What about the Storm Troopers and Imperial Army/Navy? Surely some of the older officers dating back to the clone wars would remember! We still have the case of only really the officers meeting any Jedi during the Clone War, and the troopers who personally worked with them of course. But its been 80 years. Clones don't live very long, so they're all dead at this point. At this point, everyone in the army will be several generations removed from what happened. And since there haven't been any Jedi, nobody is going to be talking about them. Only the upper echelon will have any intelligence, but even for them its just a ghost of the past.

In the prequels they talk about the republic that has been around for more than a thousand years and that jedi have been keeping the peace during this time. They get sent on negotiations (surely most planets effected by these negotiations over thousands of years would know this). In the cartoons my siblings watched watched NOBODY seemed to question the presence of jedi when every episode they are on a new planet with new aliens fighting droids.

ANY nation or planet with historical records would surely have mention of jedi doing X. Let alone the fact that jedi have been helping rule the galaxy publicly for a thousand years. The Romans while mysterious are hardly myth to us for example. Imagine how much less the myth would be when your elected senators are working alongside Jedi to rule many planets.

In this galaxy many aliens live for a looong time too. Are all these aliens killed off? Seems unlikely.

I just don't buy it. Such an important and long lasting organisation that stood for a thousand years, was the reason the empire was created and then also had a role in all the planets of the republic in one way or another would be forgotten so quickly.

HOWEVER if we ignore the prequels then it sounds a lot better. The Prequels should have made the Jedi out to be elusive etc and then it would make sense that as the Jedi died off so did the memory of their existence.

Even if they are in records, thats not going to be much for keeping them around in people's memories. Especially after a few generations. You can't exactly compare the Romans to Jedi. A better comparison would be Jedi and the CIA. Lets say the CIA gets dissolved and disbanded. In 100 years they're gonna be fairly well forgotten.

Sure the prequels did a terrible job of portraying this, but that doesn't contradict any of this. Most of the people the Jedi interacted with weren't exactly ordinary.

 Swastakowey wrote:
. The Romans while mysterious are hardly myth to us for example.

The Romans weren't replaced by an all-encompassing superpower who actively suppressed any reference to them.

In this galaxy many aliens live for a looong time too. Are all these aliens killed off? Seems unlikely.

Probably not. That doesn't mean they're talking, though. And is irrelevant anyway... All we've seen so far is that one girl on a backwoods planet is apparently a bit shaky on galactic history. We really don't have enough to go on to establish just how widespread knowledge of the Jedi is anywhere else.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Even if they are in records, thats not going to be much for keeping them around in people's memories. Especially after a few generations. You can't exactly compare the Romans to Jedi. A better comparison would be Jedi and the CIA. Lets say the CIA gets dissolved and disbanded. In 100 years they're gonna be fairly well forgotten.

Sure the prequels did a terrible job of portraying this, but that doesn't contradict any of this. Most of the people the Jedi interacted with weren't exactly ordinary.

I think it's more like 60 years not 80 (look likely around 20 ish and looks to be about 60 in this ) . We have not forgotten WW2 or many of the special forces who fought in it. Sure some of it is vague (which I said is reasonable) but they certainly are not myth. We know a heck of a lot about spies and so on too from the second world war. I compared it to Romans because romans existed a loooong time ago as an empire yet we still all remember them. Imagine if romans existed until 60 years ago... We remember the league of nations too and what went on with them.

Really? I thought watto and anakin were very ordinary. Or a bar full of party going aliens. Utapau blue dudes knew who about the Jedi. Etc

Everybody knows the CIA. Many people read books and watch movies from 100 years ago (especially 60 years ago). CIA features in political records, major events, history and entertainment (like the Jedi) and we will not have forgotten them in 60 years time if they vanished today.

Just don't buy it really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
. The Romans while mysterious are hardly myth to us for example.

The Romans weren't replaced by an all-encompassing superpower who actively suppressed any reference to them.

In this galaxy many aliens live for a looong time too. Are all these aliens killed off? Seems unlikely.

Probably not. That doesn't mean they're talking, though. And is irrelevant anyway... All we've seen so far is that one girl on a backwoods planet is apparently a bit shaky on galactic history. We really don't have enough to go on to establish just how widespread knowledge of the Jedi is anywhere else.

The movie may very well make the eye brow lady out to be backward and ignorant to the galaxy (doubt it though) so the group has to educate her to know whats been going on, which would make sense. But if what Han says is a refuting the galaxy held belief then thats where it gets silly. It is only 60 years. I know a lot of people who can remember the year 1955 (although they are going to likely die soon). Heck 2 of my great grandmas and 1 great grandad are nearly 100. I imagine im not the only one with nearly century old relatives.

I think planetary history and galactic history are on vastly different scales

 LordofHats wrote:
I think planetary history and galactic history are on vastly different scales

Judging on the movie intergalactic travel is incredibly easy. Anybody interested in learning the history of a planet or the jedi merely needs to travel to Ex republic planets and get some interviews etc.

I get this is an issue with writers scale maybe, but the movies make out that travel and communication is pretty easy between most planets.

And heck, people might still be old enough to have lived WW2, but how many of the younger generation already forgot that we had internment camps for Japanese-Americans. It's one thing for people far removed from the battle against the death starts to remember that there was a rebellion against the Empire. It's quite another to remember the details about the Emperor, Darth Vader, and Jedi. For people in the outskirts the last time anyone would have seen a Jedi was during the Clone Wars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
I think planetary history and galactic history are on vastly different scales

Judging on the movie intergalactic travel is incredibly easy. Anybody interested in learning the history of a planet or the jedi merely needs to travel to Ex republic planets and get some interviews etc.

I get this is an issue with writers scale maybe, but the movies make out that travel and communication is pretty easy between most planets.

Kids won't even go out of their way to go to the history center in their own county these days. Star Wars has always had their worlds be dirty and gritty, I doubt they make it a hobby to travel between planets to learn history. Maybe if this was Star Trek it would be more likely, but not for Star Wars.

Remember that communication and knowledge of what is happening is actually impaired enough that Luke was absolutely ecstatic that there was two droids who could actually tell him about the rebellion in Episode IV.

Like I said, the Star Wars universe for all it's vast technological feats, seems to completely lack mass media. How exactly are the hundreds of trillions of people in the galaxy gonna learn about anything when word of mouth seems to be the only way anyone learns anything?

I want to like this. I really hope this turns out to be an awesome movie. After the last three, we deserve something awesome.

However...

When the trailer to Episode One was released, it was done to much thunderous ovations. Tickets sold out everywhere as soon as they were up for purchase. Not a single hint was given about Jar Jar or the insipid Sesame Street level storytelling. Oh, how it burned.

Then there is this. While Abrams can make a fun movie, he seems to have a hard time grasping what makes an intellectual property truly special. Remember... Star Trek: Into Darkness. You have been warned.

 d-usa wrote:
And heck, people might still be old enough to have lived WW2, but how many of the younger generation already forgot that we had internment camps for Japanese-Americans. It's one thing for people far removed from the battle against the death starts to remember that there was a rebellion against the Empire. It's quite another to remember the details about the Emperor, Darth Vader, and Jedi. For people in the outskirts the last time anyone would have seen a Jedi was during the Clone Wars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
I think planetary history and galactic history are on vastly different scales

Judging on the movie intergalactic travel is incredibly easy. Anybody interested in learning the history of a planet or the jedi merely needs to travel to Ex republic planets and get some interviews etc.

I get this is an issue with writers scale maybe, but the movies make out that travel and communication is pretty easy between most planets.

Kids won't even go out of their way to go to the history center in their own county these days. Star Wars has always had their worlds be dirty and gritty, I doubt they make it a hobby to travel between planets to learn history. Maybe if this was Star Trek it would be more likely, but not for Star Wars.

Remember that communication and knowledge of what is happening is actually impaired enough that Luke was absolutely ecstatic that there was two droids who could actually tell him about the rebellion in Episode IV.

You say that but it depends on the kid. I go to every museum or exhibition about history in my area etc. I know many people who do. I would travel a lot and see historic sites etc if I could.

I always assumed Luke being on tatooine was the reason for his lack of knowledge. Being far away from space ports and so on meant that unlike his city going buddies he did not get the same info or contacts they did.

Jedi have huge archives, there is a galactic senate, huge corporations and holographic messaging over planets etc I think it's reasonable to assume with that level of society they have efficient means of communication and record keeping.

Anyway, again it's just a nitpick that bothers me more than it should. People are not as dumb as movies make them out to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:
Like I said, the Star Wars universe for all it's vast technological feats, seems to completely lack mass media. How exactly are the hundreds of trillions of people in the galaxy gonna learn about anything when word of mouth seems to be the only way anyone learns anything?

Yea but still.

 Breotan wrote:
Remember... Star Trek: Into Darkness.

Yup. I enjoyed the hell out of it. And I've been a Trek fan almost as long as I've been a Star Wars fan.

Sure, it feels different to original Star Trek. That's fine... If I want original Star Trek, I can just pull those DVDs out instead.

But JJ's treatment of Star Trek was exactly what got me looking forward to him doing Star Wars.

 insaniak wrote:
But JJ's treatment of Star Trek was exactly what got me looking forward to him doing Star Wars.

Can someone please purge this heretic? Damn, where's Yak when you need him?

 Breotan wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
But JJ's treatment of Star Trek was exactly what got me looking forward to him doing Star Wars.

Can someone please purge this heretic? Damn, where's Yak when you need him?

Nah, Insaniaks got a point. Barring JJ attempting to shoehorn in a twist (like the Kirk dies instead of Spock one), Into Darkness has the feel of a Star Wars movie.

Actually, I think a good example for how a history can be altered and erased, would be North Korea, or to lesser extent, PRC.


Sure, there may be some old grey-beard who may remember stories from "before" but due to the climate they live in, OGB ain't talking no gak about nothing, because in his old age, he values living.

Certainly someone like Jabba would still remember Jedi and Sith, because he's had dealings with them for a long, long time (though some of that may be temporarily erased due to EU being non-existent, depending on when certain works have been released). Certainly Boba Fett would remember Jedi and Sith, especially IF he somehow, someway makes an appearance (which would be fething awesome). But in both of those cases, if it isn't good for business, it wont get mentioned.

Once again, not sure why JJ takes the flak for Into Darkness. He didn't write the script.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Into Darkness has the feel of a Star Wars movie.

Both of them did. That was the most common complaint (other than 'Lense Flares!!!!1!) that people had about Abrams Trek.

Which didn't bother me in itself - I'm fine with Star Trek being a little more action-movieish than it used to be. And was a good indication that he could make a Star Wars movie that feels like a Star Wars movie.

Whether or not that Star Wars movie is good is, of course, waiting to be seen... but the trailer gave me goosebumps.

I cried manly tears at the awesomeness of that trailer. The only moment that came close to sucking was the tall goofy looking robot as they walked towards a temple.

I love the implication that the events of 30 years ago are already myths.

I favorite part (besides all of it) was the showdown between Finn and Kylo Ren. Finn looks pretty confident, but then Kylo approaches and raises his lightsaber and Finn just looks terrified by what is about to happen.

Also, there is a mouse droid.

I just watched the star wars saga recently, and i've got to say there is a massive difference between the prequels and the originals. Not going to say one was better than the other, but the difference was noticable. Somehow i get the feeling this new movie is going to capture the 'feel' of the prequels and not the originals. I think i'll wait till it comes out on tv before i watch it and/or pass judgement.

 Swastakowey wrote:


Jedi have huge archives, there is a galactic senate, huge corporations and holographic messaging over planets etc I think it's reasonable to assume with that level of society they have efficient means of communication and record keeping.

Jedi HAD archives. That temple was sacked pretty thoroughly and presumably under harsh lock-down to prevent anything getting out that palps didn't want out.
The Empire was not a democracy - and the holonet news network (which IS canon) was still going during his reign, just more as an official mouthpiece than an independent arbiter of events.
Bad Korea is a good comparator - except there WAS NO OTHER news source bar the usual smuggler/ship crew rumour/story mills around each port (because sailors now like to gossip, just like they did a couple of centuries ago).

I am genuinely speechless... there is so much awesomeness.

Dear universe, for Christmas I would like the Best Star Wars Film EVER. Oh, you've already got me one? How nice of you.

 chromedog wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:


Jedi have huge archives, there is a galactic senate, huge corporations and holographic messaging over planets etc I think it's reasonable to assume with that level of society they have efficient means of communication and record keeping.

Jedi HAD archives. That temple was sacked pretty thoroughly and presumably under harsh lock-down to prevent anything getting out that palps didn't want out.
The Empire was not a democracy - and the holonet news network (which IS canon) was still going during his reign, just more as an official mouthpiece than an independent arbiter of events.
Bad Korea is a good comparator - except there WAS NO OTHER news source bar the usual smuggler/ship crew rumour/story mills around each port (because sailors now like to gossip, just like they did a couple of centuries ago).

Korea has not erased the history for their people, much less turned the recent past into myth. All korea has done is blur some of the details of their past.

I highly doubt something so huge that stood for so long publicly (thousand years... thats a loooooooong time) could ever simply be forgotten because Emperor. Let alone mythified...

Trailer rewatched. Heart rate returning to normal. Thought patterns resuming...

Am I the only one who thinks Luke might not make it through this? Put it in the context of an imminent attack by Kylo Ren and a bunch of Stormtroopers and that scene with Luke and R2 takes on the air of a goodbye. Then you've got Rey helpless watching something from the rock and looking utterly distraught (swap Rey for Luke, Luke for Ben and you've got ANH), and then both Han and Leia looking rather crushed... Perhaps I'm reading too far into it, but I have a bad feeling about this...