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2015/12/19 23:50:18
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Second, Star Wars is an homage to the scifi pulp serials of the 20s and 30s and the Golden Age of the 40s and 50s. This film has none of the elements of those pulp serials, not the plot structure, nor the acting style, or the visual style, etc. This film was basically just generic modern scifi (so much so that it would have passed for a new Star Trek or Guardians of the Galaxy film if you swapped out the characters).
Not exclusively, there's a lot of pulp serial influence but there's also an equal measure of Kurosawa samurai in the mix for ANH. Lucas has stated that much of ANH is adapted from Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress where two bumbling peasants have to sneak through enemy territory. Jedi and their code are samurai adapted for a western audience and the Imperial design also borrows heavily from samurai imagery and scenes from Kurosawa's work (further mixed with German elements).
Second - There are no coincidences, everything happens for a reason (literally stated at least once in previous films). This entire film relies on coincidences to work - Rey and Finn blast off in the Falcon and Han is coincidentally in the same system to find them, for example.
Sometimes "coincidences" are manifestations of fate, in the star wars universe the Force is a living breathing thing that actively guides people in unseen fashion as an instrument much like fate. It's easy to write off a situation like "isn't that sooo convenient" when you ignore that all of the main heroes are in fact heavily influenced and fated by the force. They may not all be Jedi and trained in ways to manipulate the force directly but the force is latently strong in each of them. Han's notorious "luck " for doing impossible things or showing up at just the perfect moment to save Luke, or happy accidents like shooting Boba Fett while blinded are some of his unrealized attunements to the force although he would be the first to deny that it exists.
The force has been established as driving people together for reasons unbeknownst to those people. Both Sith and Jedi are routinely guided by an unseen hand to meet and unite with their teachers/masters even when they don't yet have knowledge of the force. It's not unreasonable that the force would guide/drive its other heroes in a similar fashion.
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This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2015/12/20 00:25:56
Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com
2015/12/19 23:59:41
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
I enjoyed it. Solid B+ in my book. I'll need to watch it again a couple times to figure out if I like it better than ROTJ, but definitely better than the prequels. I was okay-ish with the obvious parallels to Star Wars, we needed a safe space to recover from the abominations of the prequels.
I had a few small issues, but only two semi-major ones - the pacing was so fast we had a hard time getting into the characters and/or settings, and the 'they discovered a weapon that shoots faster than light!' great.... but it's not going into hyperspace right? So it even if it moves 100x the speed of light it's still going to take a while to get anywhere; how could you possibly look up and see the energy beams - either from a wholly uninvolved planet (all of the planets weren't in the same star system right?) or on a targeted planet if It moves faster than light?
2015/12/20 00:11:22
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Clearly, now that we have 3rd generation Force users, it seems that force powers are passed genetically as well as don't necessarily dilute when bred with non force users. With the rate random unconnected species across the universe are independently becoming force users (at least in the past), it is almost as if the entire galaxy is undergoing a force-level evolution.
So most of us are emotinal, passionate beings. Do you identify with this statement?
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Hard work, and a passion for life isn't a bad thing is it? We all want to live, love, and become good at our life's passion.
Is the entire universe basically defaulting to the 'dark side'?
So the jedi have identified this 'power' which gives people amazing abilities, and is refined and strengthened via reproduction. They round up children at birth if they show any signs and raise them to live a life where they can never reproduce. Effectively committing eugenics against anyone who shows force sensitivity while using them as soldiers to do it. Imagine if we began to have humans who developed new traits due to evolution of our species and the official response was to round them up at birth and kill their blood line through forced brainwashing and service all because they are 'afraid' of what might happen should this new trait spread like wildfire across the general population.
It seems like history keeps repeating itself in this universe and the natural conclusion will be a break in the cycle. Maybe Luke has figured that out as he was following in the Jedi's footsteps textbook and the same result happened and a drastic change is needed. Maybe the force needs to spread naturally across species, and force users need to follow both paths for true balance? I am curious how they progress this story, but I hope it is better than 'dark side baaaaaaaaad, light side goooooood'.
Also, It is clear to anyone that Skywalker sperm is in Rey. Kylo Ren Killed all the other students of Luke, and I suspect he had a younger sister who was Han and Leia's child which they assumed had been murdered with the rest of the students. I can't see any reason they would be trying to do so many clear parallels to Solo except to father/daughter them, and Luke probably hid the fact she was alive from Leia and Han for multiple obvious reasons. Episode 2 will have a "Luke never told you about your father... I am your brother! MUHAHAHAHHA" "That's not True! thats Immpossible!" *fall down a hole*
Snoke also has to be Darth Plaugeis, otherwise it would be silly. The dark side has a very focused linear path from master to apprentice. He has to have been Palpatine's Master or else it makes no sense. Also would explain why he is old as dirt as he has transcended death.
I also suspect that the reason Han found them was because when the Falcon was booted up, his 'find my iPhone' kicked on and he pounced on it. He said if he could track it, then anyone could. Was it luck that it happened to be on the planet where Han's daughter was? Well as Obi Wan said, "there is no such thing as luck". I could see Luke sticking it there for reasons as he had his weird old man buddy on the planet keeping an eye on things.
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2015/12/20 00:47:57
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Haven't seen the film yet so cannot comment on it, but I heard from a friend at my gaming club that Disney is pulling the licences for all existing Star Wars RPGs like Fantasy Flight Games because they "aren't official Disney Canon".
Shame on you Disney.
I've been hearing this rumour in some form again and again and again since Disney first purchased Star Wars. It's been complete BS each and every time.
The whole point of the 'legends' label is to allow for this. Fantasy Flight, specifically, are continuing to release models and figures for X-Wing ranging from "Star Wars Rebels" to the Legends universe, to material directly for 'The Force Awakens' - Sometimes, all in the same month.
TFA probably spent several times more on catering than the entire RPG market, nevermind FFG's corner of it did for the years it was being made. I seriously doubt Disney are concerned enough to pull any licenses for that.
2015/12/20 00:54:07
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Revenge of the Sith, Attack of the Clones, Empire Strikes back, ROTJ, Are also all pretty damn actiony just as much so as this one was i'd say in all honesty.
Action and Adventure films are pretty much the same thing, which is why you'll usually find them packed together in the Action/Adventure section. Action and Adventure games, you might have a point, but in film there's no real difference.
Action and adventure arent exclusive of one another but there is a difference between the two, its how the action is used that matters. In action films combat/fighting/violence is essentially a means unto itself, whereas in adventure films its secondary to the plot itself. TFA was *really* heavy on the action, more of it is spent in combat situations than in non-combat, which emphasizes it as action for the sake of action rather than action for the sake of moving along plot transitions (as in the original trilogy and the prequels). Its a subtle but important difference.
Given the ending, it's pretty much a certainty that Luke will serve a role as Rey's teacher, even if he doesn't appear, which pretty much on it's face invalidates him from being a McGuffin. Further, Luke wasn't really the item being sought. The map was, and much like the Death Star Plans in ANH, they came back.
Theres a test I like to use to determine if its a mcguffin or not, its called the ham sandwich test. If you replace the item with a ham sandwich, would the plot still work? If yes, then its a mcguffin, if not, hen its not. For this reason, the Death Star is not a mcguffin, as a ham sandwich cannot destroy a planet or end the lives of the characters if it isnt destroyed in time. Luke in TFA on the other hand, is irrelevant to the plot of the rest of the film, you can replace him (or, if you prefer, the map to his location) and it really makes no difference, we just assume that everyone in the film is just really really hungry.
Having a line saying "there's no such thing as coincidence" doesn't change the fact that OT pretty much ran on a massive unadulterated amount of coincidence. Coincidence happening for a "reason" is still coincidence.
Except not really, Ill explain later.
You misunderstand the force as a concept. Go re-watch the originals about 12 times each and read 4 or 5 series out of the Old EU till you understand. Make sure they're the jedi related ones...
I think you grievously missappropriate how much of a homage star wars was to older sci-fi. There is the well known fact that it was a homage to Flash Gordon but for all the similarities it still differs quite considerably in its original and later implemented forms from anything like previous sci-fi. Infact it was the sci-fi that Started the FX revolution rekindled a dying genre, and irreversibly impacted American and Global culture in a way no other sci-fi could with stunning effects, amazing story telling, and superb acting that was a-typical of the genre before it.
I think youre not understanding quite how much of the films were borrowed. The way dialogue is structured, action develops, set and costume designs, camera angles and scene struxtures are all lifted almost directly from the serials. JJ, either intentionally or unintentionally, missed most, if not all of that. Films arent just a story, theyre an entire form of artwork, and Star Wars is more or less an examplar of the art. Specifically, those filmmaking elements are amongst the defining artistic features of Star Wars. Thus, if the original films were italian renaissance portraits, TFA would be an impressionist one, as it has a different set of those defining features.
Star Wars is still a space opera nothing about 7 changes this nothing about 7 removes it from the category of space opera and nothing about a space opera makes it different from sci-fi...
Except TFA misses the space opera elements to focus on more traditional scifi tropes,etc, specifically TFA lacks the melodramatic and romantic elements, which are rather important.
This film was a complete and total rehash of ANH (Not that it makes it bad)... If ANH used those archetypes then this one certainly did as well.
Not quite. The characters are non-archetypal and the events dont fully meet the Heros Journey criteria, it just recycled plot elements without consideration for what they signify, for the most part.
You misunderstand, McGuffins are a tool that is accessible to a writer. Almost every story has a driving quest. in ANH it was the Death Star Plans on R2-D2. Again... Pretty much copying the whole ANH formula with the whole map thing.... (which does play a role later rather than simply enabling the plot along the whole time).
eerr, not quite. the map/r2d2 plotline ceased being relevant halfway through the film, whereas it was the entirety of TFA, theres a major difference. The story of ANH isnt about finding the map/death star, whereas the story of TFA is about finding the map/Luke, Starkiller Base is just a pitstop on the way.
Thats rich. Ive watched each film more than a few dozen times each (including sitting in the theater for a full 20 hours watching the entire AMC movie marathon building up to the release), and I can all but guarantee Ive read more of the EU material than you have.
Like ANH? You know How the droids just happen to land on tattoine and find skywalker after being droidnapped by lusty eyed jawas?
Not really a coincidence (well, it wasnt really a coincidence until the prequels anyway, as up until then Luke had no defined relationship with the droids, even then its not fully a coincidence) as the droids are on tatooine to find Ben, who is on Tattooine to protect Luke. In any case, this might be the only coincidence of what you listed.
And then how His family was Coincidentally murdered by Storm Troopers who framed Sandpeople because they couldn't find the droids?
Err no. The Empire knows the droids are on Tattooine, they are actively searching for them. They trace the droids to the jawas, who dont have the droids, so they kill them. From the jawas they trace the droids to lukes, family, who dont have the droids, so they kill them too. Theres nothing coincidental about that, thats a story development.
And How Ben Kenobi Just happened to be a jedi?
Not a coincidence. Hes on Tattooine for a reason, to hide from the Empire and to protect Luke. This is the case even without the prequels (he tells luke when theyre in his hut that he was going to give him his fathers lightsaber when he was ready, because he wouldve wanted him to have it, hes quite clearly been watching luke, particularly since he was on scene to save him from the tusken raiders).
And How Look just happened to be an Ace Pilot in a machine he's never flown before?
Not really a coincidence, within the star wars setting spaceships are as ubiquitous as automobiles are in ours. Hence why Luke (and hell even Rey) both claim to be pilots despite never having flown a craft capable of extra-atmospheric flight.
And How convenient it was that Han and Chewy were in Mos Eisley that day?
Thats not a foincidence, Han and Chewie have no defined relationship with any other character prior to them meeting. They couldnhave been literally any other pilot and the story would be able to develop essentially the same way.
and How Convenient it was that they bumped into the Death Star and essentially accidentally rescued a princess?
Not a coincidence, they were taking the plans to Alderaan, which the Death Star had just destroyed because that was Leias homeworld, as in the world that the person who had stolen the plans in the first place (more or less).
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2015/12/20 01:41:22
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
I like how the plans to destroy the death star stopped being relevant long before the briefing on how to blow up the death star and then the actual blowing up of the death star.
2015/12/20 01:42:06
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
I have to agree, there is no coincidence, especially if you subscribe to the 'Master behind Palpatine' theories. Obi Wan has pretty much figured it out by New Hope that there is no such thing as Luck.
Spoiler:
Palpatine needed strife on Naboo to start a war to get a political platform to seize control by making a sympathetic situation.
The Jedi were sent to be executed to start conflict, but they escaped, where they were promptly 'intercepted' and escorted along a pre-determined path through the local planet's population.
When they fled the planet, the ships hyper-drive mysteriously broke down at a specific place to land on a planet where there was a force-sensitive child.
While on the planet, there was no way for *ANYONE* to know they were there, but Palpatine somehow immediately knew, as if he had someone there observing them. This is where Darth Maul kinda goes off the rails and attempts to kill the Jedi...?
The Naboo plan goes off, Palpatine becomes Chancellor, and war breaks out on Naboo which needs to be sunk.
One of the big themes is there is only ever one master, and only ever one apprentice. And for the Apprentice to become the master, they must train an apprentice to kill their master.
Palpatine (supposedly) killed Darth Plaugeis in his sleep. In this relationship, Palpatine is not the apprentice to Plaugeis, but the new apprentice to Plaugeis's Apprentice. That means Palpatine would have a master over him, who he needed to be killed, and needed Skywalker to do it.
So what we would have had is:
Plaugeis --> Unknown Master --> Palpatine --> Maul (Who died trying to kill unknown) And then Skywalker who KILLS unknown master.
In this set up, the Unknown master would have been who Yoda would have faced at the end of Episode 2 and who Anakin kills at the beginning of episode 3. Why else would Palpatine have such a hard on to see that person killed?
Of course we all know that person is now Count Dooku, which is quite stupid as it leaves most of the intentional manipulation as acts of chance which makes minimal sense.
This is the core of the Jar-Jar theory, but considering Dooku is canon, and Palpatine thinks he was in charge the whole time, then the only way Phantom Menace makes sense with Snoke existing is if Snoke was controlling Palpatine's rise to power without his knowledge via a simple-minded Gungan who was directly responsible for every key decision point to the rise of the galactic empire. Even to the point to introducing Skywalker to the 'plan' knowing it would derail Palpatine and why Snoke is so interested in, and has been since the beginning.
This has to frame *EVERY* coincidence in the franchise. Everything happened for a reason, and because someone made it happen.
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2015/12/20 01:54:41
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
A Sith apprentice can become the master by killing their master directly. They don't need to wait until their apprentice is strong enough to do it for them, because at that point the apprentice apprentice would have effectively overtaken the apprentice if they can kill the master whilst the apprentice cannot.
In that scenario the apprentice apprentice would kill both and then take on their own apprentice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/20 01:56:42
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/12/20 01:57:56
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Compel wrote: That's not to say the apprentice can't help the the master (Join me, etc etc).
Because, 2 v 1...
Indeed. And it could be possible that who the sides are in that particular battle change as the fight goes on. An apprentice will not stick by their master if that master is about to lose to a stronger challenger/isn't strong enough to defeat their own master. Sith survive by allying themselves to the strongest, so that they can learn from them until they are ready to surpass them, or being the strongest themselves.
That strength does not need to be physical. As we saw in ROTJ, physically Vader could easily kill the Emperor himself but the Emperor was by that point almost in complete control of Vader through manipulation and knowledge of Vader's psyche. He was, however, blind to the emotions which Vader held for Luke which allowed Vader to break free of his grip and defeat him.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/20 02:24:47
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/12/20 02:06:07
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
I think any theory that goes into Darth Jar Jar territory is absurd, even Plagueis stuff sounds a bit too much like jet fuel not melting steel beams, but I also just generally dislike fan theories as they often rely on some pretty groan-worthy stretches of thr imagination in order to justify.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2015/12/20 02:16:22
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Except TFA misses the space opera elements to focus on more traditional scifi tropes,etc, specifically TFA lacks the melodramatic and romantic elements, which are rather important.
Spoiler:
You must have missed that whole Han and Leia and Ben/Kylo stuff then. That was pretty melodramatic, having a family that torn apart by one pivotal moment. Or the relationship of Rey and Finn which can be seen to be suggesting that a bit more than just friendship is developing.
There was melodrama and potential romance there. ANH didn't have any romantic elements, beyond Luke thinking that Leia was pretty. That kind of stuff came in Empire, as the characters developed further.
Like ANH? You know How the droids just happen to land on tattoine and find skywalker after being droidnapped by lusty eyed jawas?
Not really a coincidence (well, it wasnt really a coincidence until the prequels anyway, as up until then Luke had no defined relationship with the droids, even then its not fully a coincidence) as the droids are on tatooine to find Ben, who is on Tattooine to protect Luke. In any case, this might be the only coincidence of what you listed.
Actually it is a coincidence for the reason that Vader just so happened to attack and capture the Rebel ship carrying the plans as it was passing over Tatooine. So out of how many star systems in the galaxy with how many light years between them and they just so happen to end up stopping over the planet where Luke and Obi-Wan are?
Pretty big coincidence, to be honest.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/12/20 02:26:18
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/12/20 02:19:27
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
chaos0xomega wrote: I think any theory that goes into Darth Jar Jar territory is absurd, even Plagueis stuff sounds a bit too much like jet fuel not melting steel beams, but I also just generally dislike fan theories as they often rely on some pretty groan-worthy stretches of thr imagination in order to justify.
I was willing to chalk the Snoke/Plagueis, but they did manage to throw one thing into the TFA that made me think that there may very well be something to that theory...
Spoiler:
and that is the soundtrack. Star Wars, and more specifically John Williams, always had a great touch with the music and the individual leitmotifs for each character.
We have the leitmotif for Darth Plagueis
and we have the leitmotif for Snoke
2015/12/20 02:28:18
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Actually it is a coincidence for the reason that Vader just so happened to attack and capture the Rebel ship carrying the plans over Tatooine. So out of how many star systems in the galaxy they just so happen to end up stopping over the planet where Luke and Obi-Wan are?
Leia is asked/decides to go after the great General Obi-Wan because the situation is dire.
Her father was the last person to speak to Obi-wan and suggests he was heading to Tatooine.
Leia takes a ship and goes to Tatooine.
Vader has been tasked with crushing the Rebellion who just stole his Death Star plans.
Imperial intelligence indicates a Rebel cruiser is heading to Tatooine.
Vader decides to intercept it because you know, it's his job.
Vader goes to Tatooine.
So Leia is there because that's where she believes Obi-Wan is. There's no coincidence there. Vader is there because that's where the Rebel ship is. Again, no coincidence.
There are coincidences in the OT, but that's not one of them.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think any theory that goes into Darth Jar Jar territory is absurd, even Plagueis stuff sounds a bit too much like jet fuel not melting steel beams, but I also just generally dislike fan theories as they often rely on some pretty groan-worthy stretches of thr imagination in order to justify.
I was willing to chalk the Snoke/Plagueis, but they did manage to throw one thing into the TFA that made me think that there may very well be something to that theory...
Spoiler:
and that is the soundtrack. Star Wars, and more specifically John Williams, always had a great touch with the music and the individual leitmotifs for each character.
We have the leitmotif for Darth Plagueis
and we have the leitmotif for Snoke
Spoiler:
Yeah, John Williams is a genius when it comes to making use of the music to connect events, themes and characters.
The Force Theme is, I think, one of the greatest pieces of film music ever written, able to convey such a range of different emotions entirely dependent on the scene it is playing in and subtle differences in the way it is played and with which instruments. As an example contrast the emotions it generates in the Binary Sunset scene from ANH compared to Vaders funeral in ROTJ. Brilliant.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/20 02:41:32
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/12/20 02:33:40
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
chaos0xomega wrote: I think any theory that goes into Darth Jar Jar territory is absurd, even Plagueis stuff sounds a bit too much like jet fuel not melting steel beams, but I also just generally dislike fan theories as they often rely on some pretty groan-worthy stretches of thr imagination in order to justify.
The darth jar jar was pretty much confirmed by Jar Jars voice actor, the character artist who created the concept and Lucas himself due to the confirmation of "massive rewrites" due to backlash. Which while it changes the canon to Dooku, it doesn't explain away the string of coincidences which lead through episode 1, which seemingly at the time, was written to be at the direction of an unseen force, and Palpatine having a master, regardless if that got rewritten later and explicitly told with his water opera story.
All 3 prequels reek of manipulation at the hand of the unseen master, and Palpatine thinking he is smarter and more in control than he is. Hence Snokes appearance now only makes sense if he was doing this since the beginning. Otherwise it is like some random dude woke up and said "hey, the dark side posted a job opening for dark lord of the sixth, maybe I will go apply! Sounds fun!"
Also, the only reason I can see for the horribly written "from my point of view the Jedi are evil" from anakin is the hate a parent would have for a group of people wanting to kill his children for a form of space eugenics through kidnapping and forced celibacy. Seems like the Jedi order was worried about more than simple attachments to loved ones... Force sensitive offspring would be a potentially disaterous thing for the universe as we are seeing.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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2015/12/20 02:38:01
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Music is always a major thing in Star Wars. - I always say, "the best thing about Star Wars: Episode 1 - The Phantom Menace" was the ending and not just for the obvious reasons."
This was the final, happy, cheery theme at the end of Phantom Menace.
Slow it down, change the pitch a little, what do you get?
2015/12/20 02:39:28
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Actually it is a coincidence for the reason that Vader just so happened to attack and capture the Rebel ship carrying the plans over Tatooine. So out of how many star systems in the galaxy they just so happen to end up stopping over the planet where Luke and Obi-Wan are?
Leia is asked/decides to go after the great General Obi-Wan because the situation is dire. Her father was the last person to speak to Obi-wan and suggests he was heading to Tatooine. Leia takes a ship and goes to Tatooine.
Vader has been tasked with crushing the Rebellion who just stole his Death Star plans. Imperial intelligence indicates a Rebel cruiser is heading to Tatooine. Vader decides to intercept it because you know, it's his job. Vader goes to Tatooine.
So Leia is there because that's where she believes Obi-Wan is. There's no coincidence there. Vader is there because that's where the Rebel ship is. Again, no coincidence.
There are coincidences in the OT, but that's not one of them.
Actually it is. Leia isn't going to Tatooine to get Obi-Wan. Her mission is to deliver the plans to her father on Alderaan so that they may be passed to the Rebellion. Stopping to go to Tatooine on the way, just in case Obi-Wan happens to still be there, just delays the Rebels analysis of the Death Star plans and gives the Empire more time to use the Death Star and/or recover the plans.
Leia had a cover story for visiting Alderaan, she's a member of the imperial senate on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan. She has no such cover for visiting Tatooine. If it had been the plan to go to Tatooine to collect Obi-Wan all along then perhaps her cover story would include a visit to Tatooine?
Leia's message to Obi-Wan was recorded as her ship was about to be boarded by Imperial troops. It was a hail mary play, not a carefully constructed plan.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/12/20 02:46:46
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/12/20 02:47:04
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Actually it is a coincidence for the reason that Vader just so happened to attack and capture the Rebel ship carrying the plans over Tatooine. So out of how many star systems in the galaxy they just so happen to end up stopping over the planet where Luke and Obi-Wan are?
Leia is asked/decides to go after the great General Obi-Wan because the situation is dire.
Her father was the last person to speak to Obi-wan and suggests he was heading to Tatooine.
Leia takes a ship and goes to Tatooine.
Vader has been tasked with crushing the Rebellion who just stole his Death Star plans.
Imperial intelligence indicates a Rebel cruiser is heading to Tatooine.
Vader decides to intercept it because you know, it's his job.
Vader goes to Tatooine.
So Leia is there because that's where she believes Obi-Wan is. There's no coincidence there. Vader is there because that's where the Rebel ship is. Again, no coincidence.
There are coincidences in the OT, but that's not one of them.
Actually it is. Leia isn't going to Tatooine to get Obi-Wan. Her mission is to deliver the plans to her father on Alderaan so that they may be passed to the Rebellion. Stopping to go to Tatooine on the way, just in case Obi-Wan happens to still be there, just delays the Rebels analysis of the Death Star plans and gives the Empire more time to use the Death Star or recover the plans.
Leia had a cover story for visiting Alderaan, she's a diplomat on a diplomatic mission. She has no such cover for visiting Tatooine.
Leia's message to Obi-Wan was recorded as her ship was about to be boarded by Imperial troops. It was a hail mary play, not a carefully constructed plan.
I don't know if this adds up. If she was on a mission on a consular ship, then where was the ambassador?
2015/12/20 02:55:27
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Actually it is. Leia isn't going to Tatooine to get Obi-Wan. Her mission is to deliver the plans to her father on Alderaan so that they may be passed to the Rebellion. Stopping to go to Tatooine on the way, just in case Obi-Wan happens to still be there, just delays the Rebels analysis of the Death Star plans and gives the Empire more time to use the Death Star and/or recover the plans.
Leia had a cover story for visiting Alderaan, she's a member of the imperial senate on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan. She has no such cover for visiting Tatooine. If it had been the plan to go to Tatooine to collect Obi-Wan all along then perhaps her cover story would include a visit to Tatooine?
Leia's message to Obi-Wan was recorded as her ship was about to be boarded by Imperial troops. It was a hail mary play, not a carefully constructed plan.
Go watch that message again.
"General Kenobi. Years ago, you served my father in the Clone Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire. I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed."
Bromsy wrote: ...and the 'they discovered a weapon that shoots faster than light!' great.... but it's not going into hyperspace right? So it even if it moves 100x the speed of light it's still going to take a while to get anywhere; how could you possibly look up and see the energy beams - either from a wholly uninvolved planet (all of the planets weren't in the same star system right?) or on a targeted planet if It moves faster than light?
That was a "midichlorians"-level capital offence.
I know it's Star Wars. Slavish respect for the laws of physics isn't exactly required. But this is less a matter of bad science and more a case of borked sense of scale. That scene made the entire Star Wars universe seem incredibly small.
Another problem was the pacing. Time is wasted all over the first act on filler scenes that are neither relavant to the story nor interesting in any ways while the third act -wich contains most of the movie's visual, narrative and emotional punch- feels somewhat rushed.
In all, a good film, but still below the originals.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
2015/12/20 03:59:27
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
chaos0xomega wrote: Theres a test I like to use to determine if its a mcguffin or not, its called the ham sandwich test. If you replace the item with a ham sandwich, would the plot still work? If yes, then its a mcguffin, if not, hen its not. For this reason, the Death Star is not a mcguffin, as a ham sandwich cannot destroy a planet or end the lives of the characters if it isnt destroyed in time. Luke in TFA on the other hand, is irrelevant to the plot of the rest of the film, you can replace him (or, if you prefer, the map to his location) and it really makes no difference, we just assume that everyone in the film is just really really hungry.
Spoiler:
That doesn't even remotely work. Luke is far less interchangeable than the Death Star plans for numerous reasons. 1, he was the main character so not only do characters in universe want to know where he went, we the audience want to know where he went. 2, He fits solidly into the background of the film as Kylo Ren's original teacher and a war hero. 3, A major aspect of the film is the lack of Jedi (good) to oppose evil (the First Order), which is where Rey comes in. Accepting her call to action, the force, and that her purpose is to find Luke and learn from him is her entire story line. Finding him is equally significant to Kylo of reasons somehwat unclear as he seems obsessed with figuring out where Luke is.
Luke is not interchangeable, nor is the map to his location. Any other plot device would radically alter not just the story, but the character arcs and the reaction from the audience.
I think youre not understanding quite how much of the films were borrowed.
I think you overly value superficial post film analysis and forget the film itself.
Except TFA misses the space opera elements to focus on more traditional scifi tropes,etc, specifically TFA lacks the melodramatic and romantic elements, which are rather important.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think any theory that goes into Darth Jar Jar territory is absurd, even Plagueis stuff sounds a bit too much like jet fuel not melting steel beams, but I also just generally dislike fan theories as they often rely on some pretty groan-worthy stretches of thr imagination in order to justify.
I was willing to chalk the Snoke/Plagueis, but they did manage to throw one thing into the TFA that made me think that there may very well be something to that theory...
Spoiler:
and that is the soundtrack. Star Wars, and more specifically John Williams, always had a great touch with the music and the individual leitmotifs for each character.
We have the leitmotif for Darth Plagueis
and we have the leitmotif for Snoke
Spoiler:
Snoke is also referred to as "Wise" There are just too many hints pointing to it, and it really ties together the prequels.
Action and adventure arent exclusive of one another but there is a difference between the two, its how the action is used that matters. In action films combat/fighting/violence is essentially a means unto itself, whereas in adventure films its secondary to the plot itself. TFA was *really* heavy on the action, more of it is spent in combat situations than in non-combat, which emphasizes it as action for the sake of action rather than action for the sake of moving along plot transitions (as in the original trilogy and the prequels). Its a subtle but important difference.
Splitting hairs for the sake of splitting hairs you just really don't want to like this movie do you? Let's be completely frank the Difference in 2015 Is minimal at best. If you really want to split hairs you totes can But i won't over this issue. TFA is ultimately no more heavy on action than any other given star wars movie. The only thing that is different is perhaps the pacing at times.
Theres a test I like to use to determine if its a mcguffin or not, its called the ham sandwich test. If you replace the item with a ham sandwich, would the plot still work? If yes, then its a mcguffin, if not, hen its not. For this reason, the Death Star is not a mcguffin, as a ham sandwich cannot destroy a planet or end the lives of the characters if it isnt destroyed in time. Luke in TFA on the other hand, is irrelevant to the plot of the rest of the film, you can replace him (or, if you prefer, the map to his location) and it really makes no difference, we just assume that everyone in the film is just really really hungry.
Given the extra information we have regarding luke being the only jedi left to our knowledge he is unfortunately indespensible to the plot of the series regarding the training of rey. So yeah... not really a McGuffin. Again even if he were it would be no different than the Death Star Plans...
I think youre not understanding quite how much of the films were borrowed. The way dialogue is structured, action develops, set and costume designs, camera angles and scene struxtures are all lifted almost directly from the serials. JJ, either intentionally or unintentionally, missed most, if not all of that. Films arent just a story, theyre an entire form of artwork, and Star Wars is more or less an examplar of the art. Specifically, those filmmaking elements are amongst the defining artistic features of Star Wars. Thus, if the original films were italian renaissance portraits, TFA would be an impressionist one, as it has a different set of those defining features.
Your analogy is bad. Further artwork is just another word for media. The form matters yes, but really when it comes to films the purpose is more to tell a story in an interesting and engaging way than to be set upon display to be oggled at. Thus you must hold Films to a different standard than a lamely painted slick of canvas. While it's certainly possible I don't fully appreciate the borrowings star wars has from now long dead sci-fi that no one cares about It's certainly the case that Star Wars did much the others didn't otherwise the rebirth of sci-fi would not have happened. And as with time things will change. Simply because the form of star wars has changed slightly, and only slightly in the case of ANH2, i mean TFA does not make it less of star wars. What it does make it is something different from its predecessors which is not bad.
Star Wars is still a space opera nothing about 7 changes this nothing about 7 removes it from the category of space opera and nothing about a space opera makes it different from sci-fi...
Except TFA misses the space opera elements to focus on more traditional scifi tropes,etc, specifically TFA lacks the melodramatic and romantic elements, which are rather important.
Clearly you don't understand space operas, more so you didn't watch the same movie if you had you wouldn't have clearly missed the entire romance between Fin and Rey and the melodrama through out the entirety of the film... Good job sir film critic good job.
This film was a complete and total rehash of ANH (Not that it makes it bad)... If ANH used those archetypes then this one certainly did as well.
Not quite. The characters are non-archetypal and the events dont fully meet the Heros Journey criteria, it just recycled plot elements without consideration for what they signify, for the most part.
Alright, good glad we're on the same page, clearly you have not watched this film, maybe you have seen it but you clearly weren't paying attention.
eerr, not quite. the map/r2d2 plotline ceased being relevant halfway through the film, whereas it was the entirety of TFA, theres a major difference. The story of ANH isnt about finding the map/death star, whereas the story of TFA is about finding the map/Luke, Starkiller Base is just a pitstop on the way.
....yup... didn't watch ANH. What exactly is ANH about if it's not about stopping the Super weapon that is the death star by getting the death star plans to the rebellion fleet?
You also didn't watch TFA. The map quickly takes the sidelines and was never really at the fore front of anyones mind or attention past the first 3rd of the movie... Was it important yes, was it all important no there were a myriad of shifting priorities through out the movie.
Thats rich. Ive watched each film more than a few dozen times each (including sitting in the theater for a full 20 hours watching the entire AMC movie marathon building up to the release), and I can all but guarantee Ive read more of the EU material than you have.
not sure if you because you quote bad but uh... Trust me.... I spent 16 years of my life obssessing every day over star wars... You probably haven't got more time under your belt :p just take my word for it. If you had you'd understand the fact that "nothing is coincidence" doesn't mean that coincidences don't happen. They do all the time through out star wars. it just happens it's all in the forces divine plan. We could really have a Star Wars e-peen contest if you want but I'm fairly confident the guy with Darth in his name wins those everytime... I'm not interested in a pissing match with you though. Just go educate yourself on star wars, then comeback after you actually watch TFA.
Like ANH? You know How the droids just happen to land on tattoine and find skywalker after being droidnapped by lusty eyed jawas?
Not really a coincidence (well, it wasnt really a coincidence until the prequels anyway, as up until then Luke had no defined relationship with the droids, even then its not fully a coincidence) as the droids are on tatooine to find Ben, who is on Tattooine to protect Luke. In any case, this might be the only coincidence of what you listed.
redefining coincidence... how quaint. You really do not see how coincidental it is for the droids to abandon ship to tattoine after dealing directly with a sith lords daughter only to meet that same sith lords family and pit that sith lords son on a path against the sith lord. All of this happening with out anyone being the wiser or intending for this to happen at all. The Force, much like an omnipotent god acts in mysteriouly designed ways... Coincidence is one way in which it imposes its will on the world.
And then how His family was Coincidentally murdered by Storm Troopers who framed Sandpeople because they couldn't find the droids?
<some triffle of jibber jabber from a guy who doesn't understand coincidence>
Push comes to shove here's the definition of coincidence:
1.a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection.
2. correspondence in nature or in time of occurrence
Now I'm not saying there aren't motivated reasons for the events to have happened. But for all the players in ANH to have come together on Tattoine after being seperated for years from eachother, unwittingly related, unknowingly connected by blood and allegiances, and all end up fighting with one another and alongside eachother... That's a pretty damn big coincidence. Ultimately it's not because it's pre-ordained by the force, which is the thing you fail to understand about the whole coincidence thing... Not sure why that needs to spelled out for someone as "intelligent" and "intellectual" as you. But really.... come on man... There is no real causal connection for all the events surrounding the capture and abandoning of the Tantive IV to bind all those characters together on that scale. It's a coincidence. Say what you will but the force drives the star wars universe through a series of coincidences. That was the point of the "There is no Coincidence there is only the force" spiel. (From the code technically "There is no Chaos, there is Order") If you don't understand this at this point just... I have no suggestions.
Look i don't have all night or day to argue with a guy who just doesn't want to like a perfectly good film or recognize it as star wars. It's been fun but If you really can't accept TFA as a legitimate Star Wars film (maybe not good as that's subjective) then We've got no more room to talk. There's splitting hairs and then there is willful ignorance of the lore in combination with willful ignorance of the Movie Content... Hopefully what you're doing is willful, otherwise My god I hope no one takes you seriously.
Remember Folks: Landmass is landmassy.
2015/12/20 08:12:12
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
nkelsch wrote: This has to frame *EVERY* coincidence in the franchise. Everything happened for a reason, and because someone made it happen.
The reason is the constant retconning and the someone that made it happen is Lucas. Leia wasn't Luke's sister until they needed her to be. Darth Vader wasn't Luke's father in A New Hope. Midichlorians weren't even a thing in the original trilogy. This doesn't even count the "fix it in post" retcons like Greedo shooting first or Hayden Christensen replacing Sebastian Shaw as "ghost" Anikan.
Yep, nearly every coincidence in Star Wars is because of Lucas' bad writing.
2015/12/20 08:13:52
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Ahtman wrote: Star Wars isn't a documentary that reflects actual astrophysics? This is news to me.
They are just mad that the beam managed to make it across in only 11 parsecs.
Nah, as I've said before it's more a matter of failing to convey an adequate sense of distance. Considering all the effort this movie puts into capturing that "frontier" feel, making the destruction of the New Republic capital visible from the surface of Planet Whatisitsname that is -supposedly- on the most remote corner of the Galaxy just breaks it. I was deep into the movie up until that point and that scene pulled me out.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
40IK - PP Conversion Project Files
4000+
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