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2015/12/21 00:36:46
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Guys, please stop mod-alerting this thread for spoilers. It's in the title, and it's a thread about star wars after the movie has been out a few days. It's inescapable. If you don't want to see spoilers, just don't open the thread
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2015/12/21 00:41:37
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
The problem with the bad writing is that I cannot "feel" for her. In the very first movie, she already beat the villain. How could I ever feel worried about her again after I was shown that she beat the villain so easily? To us, they are relying on her "surprising" relationship reveal too much instead of actually focussing on character development...there's nothing wrong with heavily catering to the PC crowd, but sacrificing character development just isn' worth it.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I fething hated it, and I'm really surprised at how many people are okay with how much like A New Hope it is.
Some of us really like A New Hope, and were happy to see it on the big screen again.
This and one is allowed to like remakes.
Look at the Producers Remake (and a lot don't realize it was) and probably a better movie over all, but I love the original even more.
Again you got the 7 Samurai, The Magnificent 7 and Samurai 7. All of them were great and the last two great remakes.
Yes, one is allowed to like remakes, but my problem with this film is that it wasn't billed as a remake. The opening crawl identifies The Force Awakens as episode 7, as in a continuation of the story. What I got was not a continuation of the story, it was a lazy remake.
2015/12/21 00:52:39
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
creeping-deth87 wrote: I fething hated it, and I'm really surprised at how many people are okay with how much like A New Hope it is.
Some of us really like A New Hope, and were happy to see it on the big screen again.
This and one is allowed to like remakes.
Look at the Producers Remake (and a lot don't realize it was) and probably a better movie over all, but I love the original even more.
Again you got the 7 Samurai, The Magnificent 7 and Samurai 7. All of them were great and the last two great remakes.
I actually dislike the magnificent 7 haha.
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"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
2015/12/21 00:53:17
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
1) I think it's pretty clear that he is not a fully trained Sith yet. Snoke mentions multiple times that his training is not finished and that it needs to be completed.
Personal Theory: Darth Plagueis learned his lesson and is very slow at training his latest apprentice and making sure that he keeps his abilities and power at the minimum and utilizing Six Sigma "Just-In-Time" training to only teach him something whenever he actually needs it to remain useful.
2) I don't think it is the first time she held a light saber.
Personal Theory: She was trained by Luke in the past when she was very young and before she was removed. When she was removed and abandoned on the planet her memories were blocked and she couldn't remember any of her previous life and training. From the way she talked about Jedi I don't think she would have known about the Jedi Mind Trick by herself, but after she touched Luke's light saber the residual force unlocked her blocked memories. That's why we see her flashbacks of events that she has witnessed in the past, and at that point her previous training is coming back to her. Kylo Ren does act like he knows more about her than he is willing to share when talking to Snoke.
Spoiler:
1) He's an apprentice nearly thirty years of age, meaning his training has been going on for some time. The guy can catch blaster bolts and mind probe people- he's clearly no scrub. Yes his training was incomplete but the exact same is true of Obi-Wan and Maul in Ep1. Incomplete does not mean untrained. If he started at 25 years old he'd still have 5 years on her, when in actuality he likely started before he was 10.
2) There is absolutely nothing to support this. She's abandoned at the age of 5 and has been on Jakku ever since. IF she did come into contact with a light saber is was over a decade ago and it was for a very, very limited window of time. Her flashbacks are just that- visions from the force. As Yoda says, sometimes the past, sometimes the future. There's no reason to believe these force visions are personal memories that were locked inside a five year old.
Spoiler:
1) He's an apprentice nearly 30 years of age who still does not have full mastery of his emotions, as seen multiple times. A true Sith wields their emotions, Ren is wielded by them.
Also, it is likely that Snokes was holding Ren back in his training, due to Ren's conflicted nature regarding the Dark and the Light. He is being very careful to avoid the mistakes of the Emperor by making sure that his apprentice does not grow too strong until any possible sources of redemption (family, friends etc.) are removed. Now that Ren has killed his father, Snokes will likely feel that his training can advance as the prospect of Han returning and being able to turn his son back is gone. Add in that his hand has been forced by the arrival of a new force sensitive and the possible return of Luke.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/12/21 01:11:12
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
1) He's an apprentice nearly 30 years of age who still does not have full mastery of his emotions, as seen multiple times. A true Sith wields their emotions, Ren is wielded by them.
Spoiler:
Whatever flaws Ren might have, that doesn't explain Rey's capabilities. And as said earlier, rage is a powerful, powerful tool for a force user- something Ren is in no short supply of.
The fact is they're both from the same force legacy, but one has saber training, force training and years of experience. In a moment her potential overshadows everything he is.
Imagine if Luke, having just received his saber in Obi-Wan's hut, had run into Maul. Who is their right mind would expect that farmboy to best that dark side apprentice?
Sigvatr wrote: How could I ever feel worried about her again after I was shown that she beat the villain so easily?
Spoiler:
An under-trained, severely wounded villain who is also an emotional wreck because he just killed his own father. Clearly he was at the height of his powers.
Side note, I am thoroughly enjoying all of the complaining and negative reactions about Rey and I am not the least bit surprised by where it's coming from.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/21 01:25:28
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2015/12/21 01:17:59
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Sigvatr wrote: How could I ever feel worried about her again after I was shown that she beat the villain so easily?
Spoiler:
An under-trained, severely wounded villain who is also an emotional wreck because he just killed his own father.
Side note, I am thoroughly enjoying all of the complaining and negative reactions about Rey and I am not the least bit surprised by where it's coming from.
Where is it coming from?
2015/12/21 01:22:19
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
1) He's an apprentice nearly 30 years of age who still does not have full mastery of his emotions, as seen multiple times. A true Sith wields their emotions, Ren is wielded by them.
Spoiler:
Whatever flaws Ren might have, that doesn't explain Rey's capabilities. And as said earlier, rage is a powerful, powerful tool for a force user- something Ren is in no short supply of.
The fact is they're both from the same force legacy, but one has saber training, force training and years of experience. In a moment her potential overshadows everything he is.
Imagine if Luke, having just received his saber in Obi-Wan's hut, had run into Maul. Who is their right mind would expect that farmboy to best that dark side apprentice?
Spoiler:
Reys capabilities are clearly shown earlier in the film with her skill with her staff. All she has to do is adapt that skill into fighting with a lightsaber instead.
So it isn't comparable to Luke vs Maul as Luke had shown no prowess with melee combat at all. Rey had.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/21 01:23:56
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/12/21 01:33:34
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
1) He's an apprentice nearly 30 years of age who still does not have full mastery of his emotions, as seen multiple times. A true Sith wields their emotions, Ren is wielded by them.
Spoiler:
Whatever flaws Ren might have, that doesn't explain Rey's capabilities. And as said earlier, rage is a powerful, powerful tool for a force user- something Ren is in no short supply of.
The fact is they're both from the same force legacy, but one has saber training, force training and years of experience. In a moment her potential overshadows everything he is.
Imagine if Luke, having just received his saber in Obi-Wan's hut, had run into Maul. Who is their right mind would expect that farmboy to best that dark side apprentice?
Spoiler:
Reys capabilities are clearly shown earlier in the film with her skill with her staff. All she has to do is adapt that skill into fighting with a lightsaber instead.
So it isn't comparable to Luke vs Maul as Luke had shown no prowess with melee combat at all. Rey had.
Also, Luke had no lightsaber training that we have even seen prior to his fight with Vader. In fact, he had used a lightsaber a grand total of four times before then, and never against anyone or anything of equal or greater skill.
Here is what we see him do: block a couple of blasts from the remote on board the Millennium Falcon (something that Han commented on being much different than going against an actual person), chopping off the arm of a wampa in the cave while wildly flailing the lightsaber about, slicing open the belly of an AT-AT to throw a thermal detonator in it, and then he chopped the head off of an imaginary Darth Vader in the cave of Dagobah. However, when the movie needs him to hold his own against the most bad ass character the audience has seen, he does so, even scoring a hit on Vader's arm during their fight. It's also worth noting that when Luke arrived in Cloud City, his weapon of choice was a blaster pistol until he confronted Vader and considering prior to the movie he hadn't met Yoda and Obi-Wan was dead, there is no one that could actually train him how to use the lightsaber.
Spoiler:
At least The Force Awakens shows that Rey knows how to fight before it asks her to confront Ren (who is already pretty fethed up by this point). But since Rey doesn't have a wiener, I guess believing that she is a bad ass that knows how to fight is asking the audience too much.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/21 01:38:22
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2015/12/21 01:39:05
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Sigvatr wrote: How could I ever feel worried about her again after I was shown that she beat the villain so easily?
Spoiler:
An under-trained, severely wounded villain who is also an emotional wreck because he just killed his own father.
Spoiler:
Take the blinders off dude. He's under trained? She's completely untrained.
And he's not severely wounded, he got glanced. The super powerful bowcaster (which we're repeatedly shown to be extremely powerful) didn't even knock him over. Rey got pick up and slammed into a tree some 20 feet off the ground. Then dropped onto a freezing ground where she's rendered unconsciousness from the impact. Bur she's in top shape right? 100% fighting fit.
And what makes you think Ren is an emotional wreck? He's just passed his biggest test, succeeded in the thing he feared failing. But Rey is just ice cool. Not like her world has been torn apart, like she's had to kill people, run for her life, seen worlds obliterated, or been captured and held in an evil stronghold or been rattled by sneaking around, fearing death for a few hours. Or just watched her friend get cut down. No, Rey is super emotionally together.
If you're going to look at the state of one of them, you have to look at the state of the other, if you're going to be honest.
1) He's an apprentice nearly 30 years of age who still does not have full mastery of his emotions, as seen multiple times. A true Sith wields their emotions, Ren is wielded by them.
Spoiler:
Whatever flaws Ren might have, that doesn't explain Rey's capabilities. And as said earlier, rage is a powerful, powerful tool for a force user- something Ren is in no short supply of.
The fact is they're both from the same force legacy, but one has saber training, force training and years of experience. In a moment her potential overshadows everything he is.
Imagine if Luke, having just received his saber in Obi-Wan's hut, had run into Maul. Who is their right mind would expect that farmboy to best that dark side apprentice?
Spoiler:
Reys capabilities are clearly shown earlier in the film with her skill with her staff. All she has to do is adapt that skill into fighting with a lightsaber instead.
So it isn't comparable to Luke vs Maul as Luke had shown no prowess with melee combat at all. Rey had.
Also, Luke had no lightsaber training that we have even seen prior to his fight with Vader. In fact, he had used a lightsaber a grand total of four times before then, and never against anyone or anything of equal or greater skill.
Here is what we see him do: block a couple of blasts from the remote on board the Millennium Falcon (something that Han commented on being much different than going against an actual person), chopping off the arm of a wampa in the cave while wildly flailing the lightsaber about, slicing open the belly of an AT-AT to throw a thermal detonator in it, and then he chopped the head off of an imaginary Darth Vader in the cave of Dagobah. However, when the movie needs him to hold his own against the most bad ass character the audience has seen, he does so, even scoring a hit on Vader's arm during their fight. It's also worth noting that when Luke arrived in Cloud City, his weapon of choice was a blaster pistol until he confronted Vader and considering prior to the movie he hadn't met Yoda and Obi-Wan was dead, there is no one that could actually train him how to use the lightsaber.
Spoiler:
At least The Force Awakens shows that Rey knows how to fight before it asks her to confront Ren (who is already pretty fethed up by this point). But since Rey doesn't have a wiener, I guess that's too much to ask from the audience.
Already the sexism card is played.
You know what? At least Luke loses. Luke also doesn't carry the entire team through any movie. Ray fails once and gets captured (which isn't even bad since she gets out of it willy nilly). Simply once. She is the opposite of Luke, she is a one person team.
You may like those sorts of characters, but I personally do not.
Just so I know your train of thought here:
"Hmmm, some people don't like a character even though I think the character is perfect, they are definitely racist/sexist it seems."
Can you please prove that sexism is the cause of our dislike of reys "character".
2015/12/21 01:51:21
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Sigvatr wrote: Gosh, that movie was just all over the place. On the one hand, Lucas wanted to give it some serious background, but on the other hand, he poops comic relief all over it, starting with clunkily moving droids and....Jar Jar Stinks. And suddenly, Midichlorians. Out of nowhere. And...pod-racing? Just...what the heck?
I had no issue with podracing... I had issue with how it takes a full x minutes(hinestly it feels like 10-15 mins, but Im not sure) because Lucas makes us watch the full 3 laps of the race. It slows the film down to an absolute crawl and adds nothing to the story. He could have cut it down to say 2-3 minutes and it would have been an exciting action sequence in the middle of an otherwise dry (no pun intended) and dialogue heavy segment of the film.
I've never watched any of the 1920's to '50s pulp fictions so none of the above makes any sense to me. Are you saying one has to be intimately familiar with that genre to understand Star Wars? I don't care what character archetypes existed in some movie genre 60 years ago and I don't understand why Star Wars should conform to those archetypes. There are plenty of literary archetypes to rip off...I mean, pay tribute to.
As an average viewer, no, familiarity is not needed, but it is helpful, particularly when critiquing. Its more important that the filmmaker understands/is familiar with that material if hes trying to emulate the style of another director/create a new entry in an existing (and fairly unique) franchise.
Uh, where does it say that Star Wars shouldn't have 'McGuffins'? Very first movie obviously had one - Death Star plans.
Ive already ilmustrated how the plans arent a McGuffin, primarily because those plans are necessary for the last act of the film to take place. Without the plans, there is no death star assault, etc.
Han finding Falcon might seem like coincidence, however Han himself said that he didn't find his ship by coincidence. I presume he was looking for it and by dialogue he had an idea where to look. And R2D2 undoubtely just reacted to the events around him. Sure, there were some fortuous coincidences in the movie. However, ALL of the predecing Star Wars movies had them so it's hardly anything new.
Han said he didnt find them by accident because he picked them up on scanners. That still doesnt explain why he happened to be over Jakku at such a fortuitous time. It is after all a galaxy of millions/billions/trillions of planets (I had at one point the rouh number committed to memory, but its not really important).He also said that they had already searched Jakku years prior, so there was no reason for him to be there if he was searching for the Falcon.
As for coincidences in the originals, I kinda already explained how in large part they arent coincidences (or only became coincidences after the prequels), check my previous post for details.
Episode 1 was awful mess of a story which made no sense and characters which almost without exception were terrible. I admit, however, that visually it had great Star Wars feel, perhaps even second best after ANH.
I disagree. Ysee, my GF hadnt ever seen any Star Wars films before up until thursday morning at 1am. After the first one (TPM) I asked her her thoughts (she studied acting and theater, so she has a good grasp of some of the technical aspects of film, but not necessarily of filmmaking), in her own words it was an interestiny story marred by questionable acting/ writing and incorrect pacing. In any case it was enough to hook her and she left the theater after TFA as a fan (though she also felt TFA didnt fit the eest of the series). I also never felt the story was TPMs failing, though it is certianly framed in a poor manner (as others have pointed out, trade disputes belong on CSPAN, not in an adventure flick).
Episode 2 was a platform computer game with 5-6 subgames and some exposition dialogue scenes in-between. Seriously it didn't even feel like a movie, much less Star Wars movie. Low point of the franchise in every respect.
For the longest time I thought TPM was the worst, but after the marathon Im inclined to agree. I think the issue with this one though was that the movie felt disjointed, to the extent that I actually have trouble recalling significant plot details and the order in which they occur.GF said that this one felt like they left pretty significant or essential parts of the film on the editing room floor.
Episode 3 at least was a God honest attempt to show the fall of the Republic. However like the previous films, the script felt like a draft, likely because it was a draft, and directing was non-existing.
See I never really had much of an issue with RotS, though it suffers from the same issues of the rest of the film. And, in fact I think a major part of the problem with the prequels is that they are misunderstood. Lucas went cery heavy on the callbacks to Pulp serials and Golden age scifi etc on this one, from what I can tell he was trying to create a "metastyle" (i made that term up just now cuz I cant explain it otherwise) to give the setting of the prequels a feeling of grandeur, as though it was some sort of mythic golden age relative to the OT, similar to how we might think of ancient rome today. As a result, he borrowed from the plot struxtures, storylines, acting styles, etc of that source material far more heavily, and as a result it feels awkward because modern audiences arent used to it. I actually noticed this for the first time during the marathon, bit all throughout the prequel films one character will make a statement, then a second character will repeat the same statement (as though in reaffirmation) and then hoth characters will stare determinedly off-screen following an awkward silence. Thats an acting/dialogue/directing style that hasnt really been seen since the 30s/40s/50s, etc. and is more suited to radio/early film/tv. As a result, modern actors arent necessarily comfortable or familiar with it (it does take a certain self awareness I think) with makes it seem even more awkward and unwieldy. it comes across as poor acting/writing, but in reality its 100% intentional/camp.
major problem of all these movies was that the Jedi were shown as lightsaber-wielding action machines. It was not what original trilogy led us believe the Jedi were all about. Light saber was just an auxiliary weapon for the Jedi, like baton and pistol to a cop, not soul of a Samurai. Yoda never even taught Luke lightsaber!
This is true, BUT, its worth remembering that in these films, at least, there was still discussion of the Mysteries and Philosophies of the Force, etc. whereas that is all but absent in TFA.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I fething hated it, and I'm really surprised at how many people are okay with how much like A New Hope it is.
Spoiler:
It's practically a carbon copy of the original film, and it astounds me that people can recognize it for that and still think it's good. Why would you not want something different? If all you're content with is a remake, why not just watch the original? If THIS is considered good, it's almost hypocritical to hate on the prequel films. At least THOSE tried to do something different. Sequels should break new ground and do something new with its characters and setting, but Force Awakens doesn't do that at all. It's just a carbon copy of A New Hope with modern special effects. It's completely and totally lacking in creativity, and while it's easy to say 'well nothing is original anymore' there is a fine line between doing your own take on an existing idea and just remaking something. The Force Awakens is squarely the latter, and is hugely disappointing because of it.
Careful, people will tell you youre wrong and not a real fan.
1) I think it's pretty clear that he is not a fully trained Sith yet. Snoke mentions multiple times that his training is not finished and that it needs to be completed.
Personal Theory: Darth Plagueis learned his lesson and is very slow at training his latest apprentice and making sure that he keeps his abilities and power at the minimum and utilizing Six Sigma "Just-In-Time" training to only teach him something whenever he actually needs it to remain useful.
2) I don't think it is the first time she held a light saber.
Personal Theory: She was trained by Luke in the past when she was very young and before she was removed. When she was removed and abandoned on the planet her memories were blocked and she couldn't remember any of her previous life and training. From the way she talked about Jedi I don't think she would have known about the Jedi Mind Trick by herself, but after she touched Luke's light saber the residual force unlocked her blocked memories. That's why we see her flashbacks of events that she has witnessed in the past, and at that point her previous training is coming back to her. Kylo Ren does act like he knows more about her than he is willing to share when talking to Snoke.
Can we avoid referring to Snoke as Plagueis until thats confirmed please? Though I got a good lauh out of the Six Sigma bit.
As for Rey, I think everyone knows there is most likely a "Rey, I am your Mother/Father/Brother" moment coming our way in a future film, what Im curious about is how they explain the fact that not a single person seems to have any knowledge/awareness/make a connection that she is related to said individual(s).
However, when the movie needs him to hold his own against the most bad ass character the audience has seen, he does so, even scoring a hit on Vader's arm during their fight. It's also worth noting that when Luke arrived in Cloud City, his weapon of choice was a blaster pistol until he confronted Vader and considering prior to the movie he hadn't met Yoda and Obi-Wan was dead, there is no one that could actually train him how to use the lightsaber.
The OT films, actually all the films thus far, are separated by years. IIRC its abkut 2-3 years between ANH and ESB, and another 3 between ESB and RotJ, more than enough time for him to develop the necessary skills.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2015/12/21 01:53:52
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
I guess the character seems like a bit of a Mary Sue but I'm not terribly bothered.
It's an interesting take on the dark side villain being a petulant brat. It'll be interesting to see how his wounded pride/body changes him in the subsequent movies.
Luke was a bit petulant in A New Hope, wanting to break away from his Uncle/Aunt. Obviously this is stepped up another notch entirely.
Perhaps this arc will be an inversion of the redemption arc and see Ren willingly transformed into a Vader like character by the end and besting Rey.
In light of Motyak's post, I'll rephrase this. Apologies if this is still too close to the issue. Gender isn't remotely a concern to me.
Characters should be believable. I view it very much as a GM would when a player makes a character for a game. You want to have skills X,Y and Z and certain levels? That's fine, show me your backstory. You're an excellent pilot because you're a career smuggler and you've had to avoid blockades, traps, pirates and the Empire? No problem. You can speak droid, wookiee and some alien languages because your crew included them, or you worked with them constantly? Ok sure. You know how to rewire security systems to open/close blast doors? I guess we could put that under smuggling skills...You can repair almost anything, almost instantly even when it's unfamiliar? Ok, you're a gifted mechanic/engineer because you've been doing it all your life and got on the job training.You can use the force because a master or grand master gave you lessons and you're force sensitive? Spend the points on Mentor and buy the Force Perk and we're good- once you slot it into how you did this while smuggling everywhere.. and there are no jedi left.
But if you tell me you want all that, and your background is 'Abandoned on a desert junk yard at 5 , been scavenging day to day ever since and living in a burnt out wreck, now 19' I'm going to question your rather exceptional resume. Gender will at no point become an issue.
However, when the movie needs him to hold his own against the most bad ass character the audience has seen, he does so, even scoring a hit on Vader's arm during their fight. It's also worth noting that when Luke arrived in Cloud City, his weapon of choice was a blaster pistol until he confronted Vader and considering prior to the movie he hadn't met Yoda and Obi-Wan was dead, there is no one that could actually train him how to use the lightsaber.
The OT films, actually all the films thus far, are separated by years. IIRC its abkut 2-3 years between ANH and ESB, and another 3 between ESB and RotJ, more than enough time for him to develop the necessary skills.
Except it is never mentioned or shown that Luke has any kind of combat training. People are complaining about Rey being good at things despite the fact that the movie shows us why should would be (except for the piloting, she only tells Finn that she knows how to fly, similar to Luke telling Han that he's "not such a bad pilot" himself).
Spoiler:
As far as the Force goes, I still believe that it was Force using Rey more than Rey using the Force. Snoke comments to Kylo that there has been an "awakening" in the Force and they have both felt it. Maz tells Rey the Force is calling to her and she needs to let it in. I also think there is way more to Rey's background than she realizes.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2015/12/21 02:27:19
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
In light of Motyak's post, I'll rephrase this. Apologies if this is still too close to the issue. Gender isn't remotely a concern to me.
Characters should be believable. I view it very much as a GM would when a player makes a character for a game. You want to have skills X,Y and Z and certain levels? That's fine, show me your backstory. You're an excellent pilot because you're a career smuggler and you've had to avoid blockades, traps, pirates and the Empire? No problem. You can speak droid, wookiee and some alien languages because your crew included them, or you worked with them constantly? Ok sure. You know how to rewire security systems to open/close blast doors? I guess we could put that under smuggling skills...You can repair almost anything, almost instantly even when it's unfamiliar? Ok, you're a gifted mechanic/engineer because you've been doing it all your life and got on the job training.You can use the force because a master or grand master gave you lessons and you're force sensitive? Spend the points on Mentor and buy the Force Perk and we're good- once you slot it into how you did this while smuggling everywhere.. and there are no jedi left.
But if you tell me you want all that, and your background is 'Abandoned on a desert junk yard at 5 , been scavenging day to day ever since and living in a burnt out wreck, now 19' I'm going to question your rather exceptional resume. Gender will at no point become an issue.
Many games though have an Amnesia trait, the one i am familial with the most is the GM writes up the character and give the player a blank piece of paper that is filled in as you go along. This what she feels like to me.
Swastakowey wrote: You know what? At least Luke loses. Luke also doesn't carry the entire team through any movie. Ray fails once and gets captured (which isn't even bad since she gets out of it willy nilly). Simply once. She is the opposite of Luke, she is a one person team.
You're using Luke's three movie arc to make a comparison to Rey's one movie arc, which alone says you don't know how to actually critique anything. And no, Luke never fails in Star Wars... in fact, he's the one that saves the day by destroying the Death Star after everyone else failed by making an impossible shot without the aide of a targeting computer. Also, he's able to go from being a farmer to flying one of the most advanced spacefighters in the Galaxy just because the script needed him to.
Also, you claim that Rey "never fails" but in the same sentence you mention that she fails and get captured by Kylo Ren.
You know, for someone that seems not to have enjoyed this movie you have spent an awful lot of time in this thread letting everyone know...
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2015/12/21 02:53:35
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
However, when the movie needs him to hold his own against the most bad ass character the audience has seen, he does so, even scoring a hit on Vader's arm during their fight. It's also worth noting that when Luke arrived in Cloud City, his weapon of choice was a blaster pistol until he confronted Vader and considering prior to the movie he hadn't met Yoda and Obi-Wan was dead, there is no one that could actually train him how to use the lightsaber.
The OT films, actually all the films thus far, are separated by years. IIRC its abkut 2-3 years between ANH and ESB, and another 3 between ESB and RotJ, more than enough time for him to develop the necessary skills.
Except it is never mentioned or shown that Luke has any kind of combat training. People are complaining about Rey being good at things despite the fact that the movie shows us why should would be (except for the piloting, she only tells Finn that she knows how to fly, similar to Luke telling Han that he's "not such a bad pilot" himself).
Spoiler:
As far as the Force goes, I still believe that it was Force using Rey more than Rey using the Force. Snoke comments to Kylo that there has been an "awakening" in the Force and they have both felt it. Maz tells Rey the Force is calling to her and she needs to let it in. I also think there is way more to Rey's background than she realizes.
I think its left to us to assume that in the roughly 6 years of time Luke, et al. arent shown on screen that they are doing something other than lying in bed or vacationing on Dantooine, and indeed the former EU (and to a lesser extent the new canon material. An issue I have is that it seems many of the writers etc arent forgetting what they already know from the EU, thus some of the characters seem like they have a little more "depth", for lack of a better term, than they should) illustrates this.
Re - Spoilered text, I would agree with you, unfortunately this film lacks the sagely and wizened force user who csn understand what is going on and give the film a moment of much needed exposition. No doubt this was deferred until the next film, because reasons.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2015/12/21 02:59:43
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Swastakowey wrote: You know what? At least Luke loses. Luke also doesn't carry the entire team through any movie. Ray fails once and gets captured (which isn't even bad since she gets out of it willy nilly). Simply once. She is the opposite of Luke, she is a one person team.
You're using Luke's three movie arc to make a comparison to Rey's one movie arc, which alone says you don't know how to actually critique anything. And no, Luke never fails in Star Wars... in fact, he's the one that saves the day by destroying the Death Star after everyone else failed by making an impossible shot without the aide of a targeting computer. Also, he's able to go from being a farmer to flying one of the most advanced spacefighters in the Galaxy just because the script needed him to.
Also, you claim that Rey "never fails" but in the same sentence you mention that she fails and get captured by Kylo Ren.
You know, for someone that seems not to have enjoyed this movie you have spent an awful lot of time in this thread letting everyone know...
Luke only got the death star because of Han, if Han hadn't come back Luke = dead. Even JUST using the first movie they are different. Luke gets nabbed by junk monster saved by Han/Leia, Luke gets beaten by sand people but saved by Obi Wan, Luke gets almost beaten by criminals again saved by Obi Wan, Luke helps defend the Falcon with a lot of help from Leia and Han. In the first movie what does Luke do that does not require help from the other characters? Nothing from memory. Luke ins't a perfect character and thats awesome.
As for Luke flying, seems anybody in Starwars can fly. Leia is able to for example. Saying "high tech" doesn't mean "requires years of training". Cars are high tech and it takes kids days to learn to drive them. Playstations are high tech but it takes toddlers minutes to use them. Regardless, back to subject, it's ok for characters to be special in some way. Many people are exceptional, but when a character is exceptional at everything they do it quickly goes into lame territory (depending on context).
Ray is the opposite, everybody needs her help 99% of the time. Her being captured was not even a failure in the end as that was how she achieved god status (so more of a slow start to another success rather than a failure). Rey could still have been a hero, but wouldn't it be nice if the hero was more of a Frodo/Luke character and not Commando/Rambo? When your characters only flaw is she gets upset at touching a light saber yet has engineer skills. hacking skills, fighting skills, language skills, force skills and droid skills it gets a little tiring. Ultimately the question now is not "how will she continue" it's "can she even be beaten by anything?" which to me is more fitting for a villian we know little about that the hero of the story.
Maybe Rey is a soviet spy who got awakened by something and is now completing her mission? Who knows what the sequels bring but as it stands it's pretty poor. Really that's what this movie seems like, a jedi sleeper agent trained until the ripe age of 5 then released into the world waiting to be awoken. Maybe thats her story in the next movie? Who knows. But right now, with no explanation, it sucks.
Yep, im having more fun picking apart this movie than I did watching it. I can do that if I want to.
2015/12/21 03:47:55
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
40IK - PP Conversion Project Files
