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 Peregrine wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Well first off, if my spy did not notice if their target came back upstairs then the spy is of no use to me and as a commander of the Empire, they are going to be executed for negligence and losing a crucial target.

Executing them after you just blew up your only way to find Luke because you were too stupid to use ground troops instead of an airstrike doesn't bring the priceless data back. Sensible military commanders don't assume that everything is going exactly according to the plan and all of their sources are accurate, they assume that things aren't going to go the way they should and take appropriate action to handle that possibility. Bombing the last-known location of a fragile droid into rubble is an incredibly stupid idea, and no amount of trying to rationalize "BUT SO MANY COOL EXPLOSIONS!!!!!" will change this fact.

As far as the Tie Fighter goes, it does not matter if the audience noticed the difference or not. The audience now knows there is a two seater tie fighter. That is all we need to know. If we question why there is a two seater tie fighter after the movie, we can of course check online to find out why and see that it is of course a Special Forces Tie Fighter, which is not something we needed to know during the movie.

I guess you missed the post from someone saying that they were confused about why the TIE fighters never used their turrets in any of the other battle scenes? If people are saying "WTF, why did they forget their turrets" then you've done a bad job of designing your ships in a way that the audience can easily see that they are two different ships.

But, I didn't just blow up my only way of finding Luke. In fact, the Droid is safe and sound because my spy was spot on with their information of "The droid ran off in to the woods with some girl." Which, seems like it would be pretty obvious.

As far as the Tie Fighters go, again, why would they make them look completely different? It makes absolutely no sense. "OH MAN LOOKS A SPECIAL FORCES TIE FIGHTER WE GOTTA TAKE THAT THING DOWN!" "How do you know it is a Special Forces Tie Fighter?" "Because of the totally radical paint job on it and the heart shaped spoilers!" "Oh...."

As opposed to "Oh man that Tie Fighter is ripping us up! IT HAS A TURRE-" explosion dead. It is far more practical to conceal the special forces Tie Fighter among your regular troops. There is absolutely no need for it to look like a special snowflake. In fact, that would be be putting a huge target on the back of the ship that has way more capability of taking down enemy fighters, instead of letting it hide among the regular fighters.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Return of the Jedi never explained what a TIE Interceptor is or why it was different from the TIE fighters in the first two movies, should we complain about that too?

That wooshing noise you're hearing is the sound of Perry's (and mine, and half a dozen others') points flying over your head.

Right, because you guys are just so amazing at arguing terrible points that I just can't handle it. I bow to your superior rhetoric; I'm truly outclassed.

They didn't need to explain that the TIE Interceptor was a different fighter. We could tell that just by looking at it. As opposed to the special First Order TIE that looks like this and the non-special TIE that looks like this. Both are fighters with white panel wings. One has some antenna on it. Moving around fast they are all but indistinguishable.

As opposed to this or this, which are visually distinctive.

Again, none of these things matter in any real way to the movie. Like, at all. Anyone with eyeballs and brain can tell that the two ships are different. The fact that you guys are complaining about it proves just about every negative fanboy stereotype there is, so thanks for that.

By the way., there was no difference between what a TIE Interceptor and a TIE fighter did in Return of the Jedi. They were there to look cool and sell toys.

But tell me Scotty, have you asked your mother what she thought about Hosnian Prime yet? I'm dying to hear what someone who isn't as invested in SW as you clearly are thought of the vitally important Republic capital world and it's horrific and game-changing universe-shattering status-quo up-ending destruction?

She was pretty sad because it's obvious that millions (if not billions) of innocent people were needlessly slaughtered by the bad guys.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
But, I didn't just blow up my only way of finding Luke. In fact, the Droid is safe and sound because my spy was spot on with their information of "The droid ran off in to the woods with some girl." Which, seems like it would be pretty obvious.

WHAT IF THE DROID AND GIRL CAME BACK WITHOUT YOUR SPY NOTICING.

Seriously, this is not complicated. You're risking the entire plan on the assumption that your spy is perfectly accurate and didn't lose track of the droid, when the alternative is to land troops and retrieve the droid without bombing the entire area into rubble. Real military commanders don't make stupid assumptions like this, they plan for the worst-case scenario so they aren't completely screwed when the optimistic version turns out to be false.

As far as the Tie Fighters go, again, why would they make them look completely different? It makes absolutely no sense. "OH MAN LOOKS A SPECIAL FORCES TIE FIGHTER WE GOTTA TAKE THAT THING DOWN!" "How do you know it is a Special Forces Tie Fighter?" "Because of the totally radical paint job on it and the heart shaped spoilers!" "Oh...."

For the same reason that Vader got a different ship in ANH: so the audience can clearly see that they are two different ships. If you're going to go to the trouble of putting two different kinds of TIE fighters in your movie then the audience should actually be able to tell them apart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Anyone with eyeballs and brain can tell that the two ships are different.

They really can't. On-screen in a cluttered action scene they look exactly identical, as demonstrated by the pictures HBMC posted. Unless someone tells you explicitly that there are two different TIE fighters you'll probably never even think to go looking for the subtle differences. I don't think I would have had any clue that they were two different ships if I hadn't been following discussions about how each variant should be represented in X-Wing.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
The fact that they are different makes no impact on the narrative of the movie.

Agreed. It was important for Vader's TIE to look obviously different solely because it was Vader's TIE and knowing that is important to the story as it lends gravitas to the trench run. Because the audience knows Vader is right on Luke's ass he isn't just trying to blow up the evil superweapon, he's trying to do it with the big bad who killed Obi-Wan right behind him.

Conversely that the First Order has special TIEs is really only important to nerds, and people producing merchandise; with the latter being much cheaper if the fighters look very similar.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
But, I didn't just blow up my only way of finding Luke. In fact, the Droid is safe and sound because my spy was spot on with their information of "The droid ran off in to the woods with some girl." Which, seems like it would be pretty obvious.

WHAT IF THE DROID AND GIRL CAME BACK WITHOUT YOUR SPY NOTICING.

Seriously, this is not complicated. You're risking the entire plan on the assumption that your spy is perfectly accurate and didn't lose track of the droid, when the alternative is to land troops and retrieve the droid without bombing the entire area into rubble. Real military commanders don't make stupid assumptions like this, they plan for the worst-case scenario so they aren't completely screwed when the optimistic version turns out to be false.

As far as the Tie Fighters go, again, why would they make them look completely different? It makes absolutely no sense. "OH MAN LOOKS A SPECIAL FORCES TIE FIGHTER WE GOTTA TAKE THAT THING DOWN!" "How do you know it is a Special Forces Tie Fighter?" "Because of the totally radical paint job on it and the heart shaped spoilers!" "Oh...."

For the same reason that Vader got a different ship in ANH: so the audience can clearly see that they are two different ships. If you're going to go to the trouble of putting two different kinds of TIE fighters in your movie then the audience should actually be able to tell them apart.

I am sorry, but why would my spy not notice the droid and girl come back? I am confused by your logic. Why would my spy whose only mission right now is to report the location of the droid and girl not know when they are in the same room with them? I am risking my entire plan on my spy being able to use their eyes to tell me the location of the girl. As far as real military commanders go, I think you may be operating under some false information. Real military commanders make mistakes all the time. I believe Russia has been bombing hospitals, as well as the US. So please, do not tell me real military commanders never make a mistake.

For Vader's Tie Fighter, he got a special one because he is Vader and he is a well known pilot. I assume he had a lot of input on the design of his own ship, considering he was a bid of a gear head in the movies. It is not that hard to understand that Special Character gets Special Tie Fighter as opposed to when two characters STEAL a Tie Fighter they just get run of the mill Tie Fighter.

 dogma wrote:
Conversely that the First Order has special TIEs is really only important to nerds, and people producing merchandise; with the latter being much cheaper if the fighters look very similar.

Then why do they need to have two different ships at all? Don't say merchandise, because it would probably help merchandise sales if the two ships looked different enough that parents can't say "but you already have one of those".

 Dreadwinter wrote:
I am sorry, but why would my spy not notice the droid and girl come back?

Because people make mistakes. I don't know why this is so hard to understand, bombing the whole building produces a spectacular special effects scene but in-universe involves a huge risk of catastrophic failure. A real military commander would look at the plan and say "but what if the spy screws up, what do we do then" and reject the airstrike because "what do we do then" is "explain to our superiors that we just destroyed the only copy of the map to Luke and probably be executed for our failure". You're justifying the scene by assuming that everyone involved suddenly becomes an absolute moron for the sake of having bigger explosions on screen.

 Peregrine wrote:

 dogma wrote:
Conversely that the First Order has special TIEs is really only important to nerds, and people producing merchandise; with the latter being much cheaper if the fighters look very similar.

Then why do they need to have two different ships at all? Don't say merchandise, because it would probably help merchandise sales if the two ships looked different enough that parents can't say "but you already have one of those".

 Dreadwinter wrote:
I am sorry, but why would my spy not notice the droid and girl come back?

Because people make mistakes. I don't know why this is so hard to understand, bombing the whole building produces a spectacular special effects scene but in-universe involves a huge risk of catastrophic failure. A real military commander would look at the plan and say "but what if the spy screws up, what do we do then" and reject the airstrike because "what do we do then" is "explain to our superiors that we just destroyed the only copy of the map to Luke and probably be executed for our failure". You're justifying the scene by assuming that everyone involved suddenly becomes an absolute moron for the sake of having bigger explosions on screen.

Umm, I am actually doing the direct opposite. I am assuming that everyone involved can do their job correctly. You are the one assuming that the spy is incompetent and you are trying to use it as a reason to throw a fit about "spectacular special effects" in a scene. It is absolutely ridiculous. She can clearly see that they went in to the woods together. She can then monitor the door to see if they return. She could have even gone outside to monitor the tree line, or followed them out in to the woods. We do not know. It doesn't matter. What we do know is they were not in the building when it was destroyed and even if they were, Han and Chewy survived so it couldn't have been that devastating. I mean come on. There is no huge risk of catastrophic failure. This is all something you have manufactured in order to throw a fit about a scene you did not like because there were too many explosions. The movie is Star Wars. There are going to be fights and explosions. Did you watch the other movies at all?

Edit: Wait, you think only parents buy the merchandise for kids? Have you forgot about all of the adult Star Wars nerds? What is this argument even?

 Peregrine wrote:

 dogma wrote:
Conversely that the First Order has special TIEs is really only important to nerds, and people producing merchandise; with the latter being much cheaper if the fighters look very similar.

Then why do they need to have two different ships at all? Don't say merchandise, because it would probably help merchandise sales if the two ships looked different enough that parents can't say "but you already have one of those"..

Merchandise.

http://shop.lego.com/en-US/First-Order-Special-Forces-TIE-fighter-75101
http://www.hasbro.com/en-us/product/star-wars-the-black-series-first-order-special-forces-tie-fighter:4C3C94C8-5056-9047-F571-A395EC2433F0
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Awakens-3-75-inch-Vehicle/dp/B00SOFZLMA/ref=sr_1_1?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1450775509&sr=1-1&keywords=tie+fighter
http://www.amazon.com/Hot-Wheels-Starship-Special-Fighter/dp/B00QCAKW1O/ref=pd_sim_21_21?ie=UTF8&dpID=510iQgOuriL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR100%2C160_&refRID=1VHNJZE8BYERNGV56MM7
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Awakens-Titanium-Fighter/dp/B00WO0A5KE/ref=pd_sim_21_7?ie=UTF8&dpID=51-aA0FU3DL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=0081MGFY3NBPPMFYTB1Y
http://www.amazon.com/Hot-Wheels-Star-Wars-Millennium/dp/B00QCAKI54/ref=pd_sim_21_5?ie=UTF8&dpID=51twoXbJSyL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=0WBQEPHW7CA8SHHWVQWR
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-X-Wing-Fighter-Expansion/dp/B01591T2KS/ref=pd_sim_21_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=418ir42MgOL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR124%2C160_&refRID=1WSDMZZ16M4C7D6TAZMW

Still say I wasn't completely thrilled with rei. Sure luke was also mary sue and Anakin was mary sue but rei never had any training whatsoever and just did all these force powers and even beat kylo ren in a duel. Kylo Ren had years of training under luke skywalker. Also if we're talking about luke blowing up the death star that was under the guidance of obi-wan's spirit ghost. Also watch luke's duel against darth vader. Luke gets his butt kicked. If we're already showing the awesome 2nd in command baddie getting his butt kicked by Rei then what's left? There's only really one big bad sith master at that point and he/she better not disappoint.

Basically yes it is a mary sue family but I feel like rei took it to new heights. Funny how kylo ren got stuck with all the emo and rei got stuck with all the mary sue. That seems kinda unfair.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
You are the one assuming that the spy is incompetent and you are trying to use it as a reason to throw a fit about "spectacular special effects" in a scene.

No, I'm saying that you PLAN for incompetence. You don't assume that your spy is competent and risk everything on that assumption, you have a plan that succeeds even if your spy screws up. I don't know why this is so hard to understand because it's just basic military planning in the real world.

The movie is Star Wars. There are going to be fights and explosions. Did you watch the other movies at all?

I expect there to be fights and explosions, but I expect those fights and explosions to make sense when you think about them. For example, if they had blown up the whole building after capturing the droid (or capturing Rey) to kill all of the witnesses it would have made a lot more sense because there's no longer any risk of accidentally destroying the priceless information they were trying to recover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Still say I wasn't completely thrilled with rei. Sure luke was also mary sue and Anakin was mary sue but rei never had any training whatsoever and just did all these force powers and even beat kylo ren in a duel.

Luke had no (combat) pilot training but he beat Vader in a dogfight and beat experienced bomber pilots at a torpedo run.

Also if we're talking about luke blowing up the death star that was under the guidance of obi-wan's spirit ghost.

So why can't we assume that someone (or the force itself) was guiding Rey?

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Still say I wasn't completely thrilled with rei. Sure luke was also mary sue and Anakin was mary sue but rei never had any training whatsoever and just did all these force powers and even beat kylo ren in a duel. Kylo Ren had years of training under luke skywalker. Also if we're talking about luke blowing up the death star that was under the guidance of obi-wan's spirit ghost. Also watch luke's duel against darth vader. Luke gets his butt kicked. If we're already showing the awesome 2nd in command baddie getting his butt kicked by Rei then what's left. There's only really one big bad sith master at that point and he/she better not disappoint.

From what I understand Kylo Ren had not finished his training with Snoke(Was that his name?). He was decent with a lightsaber, but it didn't appear that he had a whole lot of training in fighting another person with a lightsaber. His swings were very arrogant and it seemed like he was using his brute force to overpower his opponent.

As far as Rei is concerned, we do not have the full information on her. She had a bit of a flashback when she was going for Lukes lightsaber, so I think she may be related to him. She may have also had some training when she was very young. Her clothes in the flashback look very padawan/youngling. She was also left on a desert planet by her family that she never talks about. I think she might have been left there by Luke(who I suspect is the father) and her memory was altered in order to protect her.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
You are the one assuming that the spy is incompetent and you are trying to use it as a reason to throw a fit about "spectacular special effects" in a scene.

No, I'm saying that you PLAN for incompetence. You don't assume that your spy is competent and risk everything on that assumption, you have a plan that succeeds even if your spy screws up. I don't know why this is so hard to understand because it's just basic military planning in the real world.

I already explained to you numerous ways around incompetence. The fact she could have followed them. She could have watched the door. She could even have a real time video feed with some sort of device watching them to inform the commanders. If you are telling your Commanders "Yes, I am looking right at her, she is not in the building. Unless of course the building is actually a giant forest with a lake next to it" they can pretty well guarantee that said person is not in the building. You are disregarding this in an effort to undermine the scene which was perfectly fine. It is clear you have no interest in having your mind changed on the subject or having the scene explained to you, so I am done with this.

One last thing before I pass out, because you keep bringing up basic military planning in the real world. Remember that time we went all in and invaded Iraq because they had WMDs. But it turns out they didn't? Just basic military planning. We assumed the people telling us they had the WMDs were competent. Sure wish we would have planned for incompetence there.

Luke didn't beat vader in a dogfight. Han solo came in and saved the day and he steered himself back in control after he was spinning through space. Vader was picking off rebel fighters one by one in methodical, cold and calculating precision.

If anybody guided Rei it'd have better been luke but somehow I highly doubt that. She just tapped into the force which is something she had never experienced until two seconds ago. The holding of luke's lightsaber was probably the first time she experienced the force on any meaningful level and she should have no clue what a jedi mind trick even is. The most she could probably guess is that kylo ren tried entering her mind and maybe gleaned some knowledge from his mind or quite possibly figured she could do similar with that stormtrooper.

Yes luke saved the day and was mary sue but as han solo often pointed out at the 3rd movie he was always saving his butt like a big brother up till the 3rd movie changed things.

 Peregrine wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Still say I wasn't completely thrilled with rei. Sure luke was also mary sue and Anakin was mary sue but rei never had any training whatsoever and just did all these force powers and even beat kylo ren in a duel.

Luke had no (combat) pilot training but he beat Vader in a dogfight and beat experienced bomber pilots at a torpedo run.

I wouldn't say it was beating Vader in a dogfight, because he didn't really, but his ability to use the Force to make an impossible shot is just something we all accept because he's Luke Skywalker. Of course, how he's able to fly an advanced starfighter after only "dusting crops" is another thing we just all accept. And then there is Anakin, who had no knowledge of the Force prior to meeting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan but he's able to use it to pilot a podracer, something that no other human can do.

But a kick ass girl able to do awesome things like the other heroes? Total Mary Sue and too far-fetched.

Also if we're talking about luke blowing up the death star that was under the guidance of obi-wan's spirit ghost.

So why can't we assume that someone (or the force itself) was guiding Rey?

That's my view on it as well. The Force was using Rey, not the other way around.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Luke didn't beat vader in a dogfight. Han solo came in and saved the day and he steered himself back in control after he was spinning through space. Vader was picking off rebel fighters one by one in methodical, cold and calculating precision.

Yes, Han saving Luke during the trench run is the ultimate deus ex machina moment in Star Wars. I'm surprised some Eagles didn't swoop in to guide the proton torpedo to the thermal exhaust port.

out of a muzzle the size of Texas

Great quote!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Of course, how he's able to fly an advanced starfighter after only "dusting crops"

Something about bulls eyeing some rats on Tatooine...something about Alec Guiness complementing Luke on being a good pilot earlier on in the film...

Man, you guys would hate the original trilogy.



I loved it. Finn, Rey and Poe were excellent. Everyone was stand out except Leia.



Rey wasn't mary Sue-ish. She was in tune with the force.


I think too many people are falling for Kylo's act and assuming he's got it all together the way Darth Vader did.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Of course, how he's able to fly an advanced starfighter after only "dusting crops"

Something about bulls eyeing some rats on Tatooine...something about Alec Guiness complementing Luke on being a good pilot earlier on in the film...

I don't think Obi-Wan talks about Luke's piloting ability. Are you thinking about the scene when they try to hire Han to fly them Alderaan? If so, when Han names his price, Luke whines that they could buy their own ship for that. Han asks him who is going to fly it and Luke says he's "not such a bad pilot" himself. Obi-Wan also tells Luke that his father was the best pilot in the Galaxy.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Of course, how he's able to fly an advanced starfighter after only "dusting crops"

Something about bulls eyeing some rats on Tatooine...something about Alec Guiness complementing Luke on being a good pilot earlier on in the film...

I don't think Obi-Wan talks about Luke's piloting ability. Are you thinking about the scene when they try to hire Han to fly them Alderaan? If so, when Han names his price, Luke whines that they could buy their own ship for that. Han asks him who is going to fly it and Luke says he's "not such a bad pilot" himself. Obi-Wan also tells Luke that his father was the best pilot in the Galaxy.

Let's be honest, R2 pretty much flies that X-wing.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Of course, how he's able to fly an advanced starfighter after only "dusting crops"

Something about bulls eyeing some rats on Tatooine...something about Alec Guiness complementing Luke on being a good pilot earlier on in the film...

I don't think Obi-Wan talks about Luke's piloting ability. Are you thinking about the scene when they try to hire Han to fly them Alderaan? If so, when Han names his price, Luke whines that they could buy their own ship for that. Han asks him who is going to fly it and Luke says he's "not such a bad pilot" himself. Obi-Wan also tells Luke that his father was the best pilot in the Galaxy.

Let's be honest, R2 pretty much flies that X-wing.

Until Vader hits him with a laser volley.

I liked it, solid 7 out of 10.

Especially enjoyed the start, but as it became more and more obvious that it was a direct homage to Star Wars Episode 1, I got a little bored because the plot became very predictable. I'm hoping the next movie is less predictable and less of a direct riff on Empire.

Acting was good, effects were good, it "felt" right.

But I enjoyed Guardians of the Galaxy more as a space adventure movie.

 Scrabb wrote:
Man, you guys would hate the original trilogy.



I loved it. Finn, Rey and Poe were excellent. Everyone was stand out except Leia.



Rey wasn't mary Sue-ish. She was in tune with the force.


I think too many people are falling for Kylo's act and assuming he's got it all together the way Darth Vader did.

Yeah Kylo Ren is a walking mass of issues. When he took his mask off I wanted to give him a hug and some acne cream.

It's quite obvious that he can't keep his cool under pressure. Which is why he goes nuts and uses his lightsaber as a baseball bat breaking up equipment every time he has a paddy.

Even during his fight, he's beating Rae back like someone fighting off a foe with a ball. Then he gets caught off guard, and seeing as he had already been injured twice, it was too much for him.

Don't forget, Luke was his trainer, and he practically taught himself. So I doubt Luke would actually make that good of a teacher, he knows what to do, but not why you have to do what you do

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Of course, how he's able to fly an advanced starfighter after only "dusting crops"

Something about bulls eyeing some rats on Tatooine...something about Alec Guiness complementing Luke on being a good pilot earlier on in the film...

I don't think Obi-Wan talks about Luke's piloting ability. Are you thinking about the scene when they try to hire Han to fly them Alderaan? If so, when Han names his price, Luke whines that they could buy their own ship for that. Han asks him who is going to fly it and Luke says he's "not such a bad pilot" himself. Obi-Wan also tells Luke that his father was the best pilot in the Galaxy.

No, Obi-Wan does mention Lukes piloting ability during the scene in the hut. He reminisces about Lukes father, describing him as the best pilot in the galaxy and then says to Luke that he hears he's become a good pilot himself, or something like that.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Of course, how he's able to fly an advanced starfighter after only "dusting crops"

Something about bulls eyeing some rats on Tatooine...something about Alec Guiness complementing Luke on being a good pilot earlier on in the film...

I don't think Obi-Wan talks about Luke's piloting ability. Are you thinking about the scene when they try to hire Han to fly them Alderaan? If so, when Han names his price, Luke whines that they could buy their own ship for that. Han asks him who is going to fly it and Luke says he's "not such a bad pilot" himself. Obi-Wan also tells Luke that his father was the best pilot in the Galaxy.

No, Obi-Wan does mention Lukes piloting ability during the scene in the hut. He reminisces about Lukes father, describing him as the best pilot in the galaxy and then says to Luke that he hears he's become a good pilot himself, or something like that.

What I wanted to say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Scrabb wrote:
Man, you guys would hate the original trilogy.



I loved it. Finn, Rey and Poe were excellent. Everyone was stand out except Leia.



Rey wasn't mary Sue-ish. She was in tune with the force.


I think too many people are falling for Kylo's act and assuming he's got it all together the way Darth Vader did.

Yeah Kylo Ren is a walking mass of issues. When he took his mask off I wanted to give him a hug and some acne cream.

It's quite obvious that he can't keep his cool under pressure. Which is why he goes nuts and uses his lightsaber as a baseball bat breaking up equipment every time he has a paddy.

Even during his fight, he's beating Rae back like someone fighting off a foe with a ball. Then he gets caught off guard, and seeing as he had already been injured twice, it was too much for him.

Don't forget, Luke was his trainer, and he practically taught himself. So I doubt Luke would actually make that good of a teacher, he knows what to do, but not why you have to do what you do

Kylo Ren looked as though he had been doing shampoo adverts in between takes.

Soon as the mask came off, the evilness evaporated!

Some of the people need to tone down their posts in this thread. Sarcasm and dismissive attitudes aren't polite. It's just a movie (I never thought I'd have to say that about star wars, *sniff*)

Special Forces tie fighter, it makes sense now! Thanks for that, Dreadwinter. I should've realized with the red makings...

Sabine was a bounty hunter not a spy. But that said, it made no sense for her not to keep track or even try to capture the droid. She is very motivated by money.

My prediction:
By blowing up the senate, all they did was wake a sleeping dragon. The Republic was willing to simply aid the resistance inside Order space. Now the First Order committed an act of war against them. The rest of the fleet will mobilize and the shipyard worlds of the republic will spin up to a war footing if they weren't already there. The good thing about a government, there are continuity plans. Odds are the number two people will meet up on a different world or on a ship somewhere and continue the government, while the various arms of the fleet reassemble and bring the war to the Order.

Meanwhile Luke trains Rey, we find out she is his daughter, they throw a name for a mom out there but whose background is pretty much Mara Jade and find Kylo had killed her too. She gets all mad and almost falls to the darkside herself, but gets control and goes after Kylo.

As to the fighter thing, when have they ever gone into detail on any piece of technology in one of the movies? So is it really that big a deal they made a new fighter that is based off the old TIE system? I didn't see any standard TIEs but with the way they filled it, it was hard to see good details in action. I am still mad they didn't use any actual bombers on the attack run. That is why Ackbar created the B-wing in the first place after all, or since they were supporting the resistance, maybe have sent them some older Y-Wings?

Col. Dash wrote:
Sabine was a bounty hunter not a spy. But that said, it made no sense for her not to keep track or even try to capture the droid. She is very motivated by money.

My prediction:
By blowing up the senate, all they did was wake a sleeping dragon. The Republic was willing to simply aid the resistance inside Order space. Now the First Order committed an act of war against them. The rest of the fleet will mobilize and the shipyard worlds of the republic will spin up to a war footing if they weren't already there. The good thing about a government, there are continuity plans. Odds are the number two people will meet up on a different world or on a ship somewhere and continue the government, while the various arms of the fleet reassemble and bring the war to the Order.

Meanwhile Luke trains Rey, we find out she is his daughter, they throw a name for a mom out there but whose background is pretty much Mara Jade and find Kylo had killed her too. She gets all mad and almost falls to the darkside herself, but gets control and goes after Kylo.

As to the fighter thing, when have they ever gone into detail on any piece of technology in one of the movies? So is it really that big a deal they made a new fighter that is based off the old TIE system? I didn't see any standard TIEs but with the way they filled it, it was hard to see good details in action. I am still mad they didn't use any actual bombers on the attack run. That is why Ackbar created the B-wing in the first place after all, or since they were supporting the resistance, maybe have sent them some older Y-Wings?

It was mentioned during the film that the republic fleet was destroyed when the capital was blown up.

Probably a portion of it was, realistically though you have an entire galaxy to manage and the whole fleet would never be there. Theres always pirates to fight off, breakaway factions, simple patrols along the border etc. The whole fleet was not there. That would be as silly as having our respective fleets sitting in the Potamic River in our case or in the Thames off of London in yours.

At the end of Return of the Jedi you were looking at 25000 Star Destroyers in total roughly, how many of those were at the all important Death Star battle instead of doing normal patrols and so forth. Likely the entire home fleet was at the planet that was destroyed and other fleets were elsewhere. At a minimum do you think they left the shipyards at Mon Calimari and Sullestan without substantial fleet defenses? Or the many other major coreworld shipyards?

Col. Dash wrote:
Probably a portion of it was, realistically though you have an entire galaxy to manage and the whole fleet would never be there. Theres always pirates to fight off, breakaway factions, simple patrols along the border etc. The whole fleet was not there. That would be as silly as having our respective fleets sitting in the Potamic River in our case or in the Thames off of London in yours.

At the end of Return of the Jedi you were looking at 25000 Star Destroyers in total roughly, how many of those were at the all important Death Star battle instead of doing normal patrols and so forth. Likely the entire home fleet was at the planet that was destroyed and other fleets were elsewhere. At a minimum do you think they left the shipyards at Mon Calimari and Sullestan without substantial fleet defenses? Or the many other major coreworld shipyards?

That is true however it would be very difficult to mobilise all those forces when there's a sudden big hole in the leadership.

 Peregrine wrote:
Now stop trying to rationalize the scene and put yourself in the position of the enemy commander. Why would you even consider sending in an airstrike to level the entire building when you can just deploy some stormtroopers to trap everyone inside and retrieve the droid without any risk of collateral damage. You're risking catastrophic failure of your entire "find Luke" plan with the assumption that your spy is 100% indisputably accurate and could not possibly be mistaken about the droid's exact location.

It seems to be First Order standard procedure to always call in an airstrike. They do it on Jakku too, immediately on locating Finn and BB-8 and missing their first couple shots at them. Ahh, it's too hard to find them in the only camp here or the open desert outside, let's just strafe the whole camp with TIE fighters instead.

That's what military commanders are for and all the major commanders were oddly(stupidly) in one place that fortunately wasn't in the line of fire for the Star Killer. Since they apparently have instantaneous communications across the galaxy(even in hyperspace at faster than light speed which makes no sense), it wouldn't be too hard to coordinate many of those various fleets.

I am curious as to how many of those 25,000 star destroyers are still in the hands of the First Order, how many are under the New Republic flag and how many have been scrapped over the years. Endor only got a small portion since they couldn't pull too many out of their assigned sectors and normal routines or it would have alerted the Rebels that something was going on.