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Exactly. Finn does pretty damn good for a janitor.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Yes, Rey does sound like a Skywalker. You're pretty much describing almost what Luke did in Episode 4 Kojiro.

Except all those thing Luke faces he is saved from by someone else. If Rey were in ANH she'd have beaten up the Tusken raiders, protected herself in the cantina and rescued Han from the garbage monster. Luke runs afoul of all those things and needs help. Even Luke's miraculous shot on the DS was made possible with help from Han and the force ghost of a Jedi Master. The parallel isn't there.

Besides, I don't know how many more times it can be said, but Kylo Ren was not a trained, experienced professional.

How can he not be? We're explicitly told he was trained by Skywalker. We're explicitly told his training under Snoke is incomplete- but that's still training. How can you possibly say he's untrained?

And he is a professional. He's directly under the Supreme Commander, has his own ship and runs about the galaxy performing First Order business. Feel free to call him an amateur but anyone who can read minds and catch blasters- one feat previously demonstrated by Vader and another unprecedented seems like they have some talent. Snoke at the very least trusted him to run things.

As to experience, he's around 30 years old. Exactly what is your timeline where Ren hasn't had years and years to gain experience? Did he start training in his late 20s?

Finn is basically your bog standard Soldier class character from Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic - the single player RPG, not the MMO. He's a skilled warrior, but don't expect him to hack a terminal, repair a droid or pilot a starship.

 Kojiro wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Yes, Rey does sound like a Skywalker. You're pretty much describing almost what Luke did in Episode 4 Kojiro.

Except all those thing Luke faces he is saved from by someone else. If Rey were in ANH she'd have beaten up the Tusken raiders, protected herself in the cantina and rescued Han from the garbage monster. Luke runs afoul of all those things and needs help. Even Luke's miraculous shot on the DS was made possible with help from Han and the force ghost of a Jedi Master. The parallel isn't there.

Besides, I don't know how many more times it can be said, but Kylo Ren was not a trained, experienced professional.

How can he not be? We're explicitly told he was trained by Skywalker. We're explicitly told his training under Snoke is incomplete- but that's still training. How can you possibly say he's untrained?

And he is a professional. He's directly under the Supreme Commander, has his own ship and runs about the galaxy performing First Order business. Feel free to call him an amateur but anyone who can read minds and catch blasters- one feat previously demonstrated by Vader and another unprecedented seems like they have some talent. Snoke at the very least trusted him to run things.

As to experience, he's around 30 years old. Exactly what is your timeline where Ren hasn't had years and years to gain experience? Did he start training in his late 20s?

Did we watch the same movie? Snoke says his training is not complete. We have no idea how long he was trained by Luke and even then, Luke is not a Jedi Master. He is strong in the force, yes, but his light saber skill is shoddy at best. He was never known as a master swordsman because, well, who trained him?

Kylo begs Snoke to give him more training because he feels he is not strong enough. Kylo is being tempted to the light side and has not fully given himself to the dark. His training is not even close to complete.

 Kojiro wrote:
How can he not be? We're explicitly told he was trained by Skywalker. We're explicitly told his training under Snoke is incomplete- but that's still training. How can you possibly say he's untrained?

Skywalker is in all likelihood a piss poor teacher. He is far from the teaching calibre of Obi Wan and Yoda, and his own training was incomplete. Obi Wan and Yoda might have trained him in the ways of the force, but they didn't put much effort into his light sabre training. Luke was never as skilled as Anakin at his prime.

And he is a professional.

No, he's not. He's a poorly trained spoiled brat prone to temper tantrums.

He's directly under the Supreme Commander

Who's deliberately holding him back in his training until the opportune moment so as not to allow the Student to surpass the Master.

has his own ship and runs about the galaxy performing First Order business.

By virtue of his privileged position as the Supreme Leader's favoured pet. Kylo owes his position to his powerful force potential. It most certainly is not due to his mastery of the light sabre and experience as a military commander. He's actually rather incompetent.

Feel free to call him an amateur but anyone who can read minds and catch blasters- one feat previously demonstrated by Vader and another unprecedented seems like they have some talent.

No one's denying that he is a powerful Force Sensitive. Maybe even more powerful than Anakin in his youth. But that doesn't make him a well trained professional warrior and master swordsmen - hes not there yet, he hasn't reached that stage in his training. The guy suffers from crippling self doubt and feelings of inadequacy. He is no Darth Maul. He's not even an Episode 2 Anakin.

Snoke at the very least trusted him to run things.

And Snoke must be and regretting that decision.


You are grossly overestimating Kylo Ren's abilities. Kylo Ren is a professional in the same way that Anakin Skywalker was a professional, experienced Jedi in Episode Attack of the Clones.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
My only problem was the Starkiller base. As for super weapons it's too closely related to a Deathstar. A big round death ball with extremely fatal design flaw. Not to mention a star would go supernova and then collapse if you "vacuumed" off the outer layers. I also guess the SW universe is able to move a whole planet via hyperspace? JJ needs to lay off the super impossible science a bit. I know Star Wars is more Space Opera than Sci-fi but take it back a notch JJ. just my opinion.

As for the ship argument I really don't care about differences with: T-65 vs. T-70, or Tie vs. Tie mk 2. Where the hell where the A-wings, B-wings, Interceptors...etc.?

Given the stupidity that the EU contained, a planet sized Deathstar is hardly a major offender. Not when there used to be fighters capable of blowing up stars and space otters having fist fights with Han Solo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Perhaps the Galaxy has been partitioned in someway and the First Order is the legal goverment of some other section of the Galaxy and The Resistance is foreign sponsored rebel group within their territory?

That kinda what it appears to be.

The Empire and the Republic have split the galaxy and are technically at peace. The Resistance and the First Order are smaller factions which are supported by the Republic and Empire to fight each other without all out war(though with the Republic crippled with what happened who knows what will happen now)

I heard no mention of the Empire so that seems to be truly dead.

Why would The Republic be crippled? Wasn't that just a some star system? It wasn't Corusant was it? I think I remember them mentioning how a lot of their fleet is there but still I can't imagine their entire military is in one system.

They did mention the Empire. And Coruscant is apparently NOT the capital of the Republic, rather the system that was destroyed was the capital. I forget what they called it though.

Even Grand Moff Tarkin General Hux likes to rub it in how incompetent and unreliable Kylo Ren is when he talks to Snoke in front of Kylo Ren. Hardly evokes the picture of someone in a high position who is feared. Feels more like someone they tolerate because he is Snoke's pet.

Hosnian Prime?

 d-usa wrote:
Even Grand Moff Tarkin General Hux likes to rub it in how incompetent and unreliable Kylo Ren is when he talks to Snoke in front of Kylo Ren. Hardly evokes the picture of someone in a high position who is feared. Feels more like someone they tolerate because he is Snoke's pet.

I was under the impression that General Hux held a higher position of power than Kylo Ren. The dialogue between Hux and Kylo certainly pointed to that being the truth.

 d-usa wrote:
Even Grand Moff Tarkin General Hux likes to rub it in how incompetent and unreliable Kylo Ren is when he talks to Snoke in front of Kylo Ren. Hardly evokes the picture of someone in a high position who is feared. Feels more like someone they tolerate because he is Snoke's pet.

Indeed. I feel as if that actually helps reinforce Kylo's Vader obsession. He knows he is in a similar position to Vader, but isn't anywhere near as commanding or powerful as he wants to be.

I saw it yesterday, going to see it again tomorrow. I didn't really have any problem with the fight scene. The fights in the original trilogy were also quite clumsy and unsophisticated, as if they were more a battle of wills than physical. It's only in the prequels that Jedi fights became hyper-choreographed ninja battles. Personally, I don't feel that there is anything from the prequels worth keeping. I hope when Disney finishes with Star Wars 8 and 9, they go right back and make 1,2 and 3 from scratch, banishing the Lucas prequels to the realms of "non-canon" along with the expanded universe. Kylo Ren was wounded by Chewbacca, Rey beats him, it's probably the best lightsaber battle in any Star Wars film, IMO. I really liked that the lightsabers look more fiery and hot now, like a welding torch. That's closer to Luke's saber in A New Hope, which looks almost white. In the prequels they seemed to devolve into just ridiculous twirly glow sticks, it was one of the multitude of things that bugged me. I'm really happy they got a bit of re-imagining.

One thing I was a bit upset about is that Han's Death is spoiled by the trailer. It's only a small gripe since it's easy to guess what is about to happen, but as soon as I guessed, I knew I was right, because the lightsaber battle between Kylo Ren and Finn, in the woods, hadn't been show yet. So I knew Kylo Ren was going to remain the villain. Once Han took hold of the lightsaber, I was already 100% certain he was going to die. If not for the trailer, there might have still been 1-2% mystery still left in that scene. Not a big deal, but maybe a big deal, since it's one of the biggest moments in the series.

I also wasn't a big fan of Maz Kanata or Supreme Leader Snoke. As soon as they appear on screen, my brain recognised them as the fake CGI imposters that they are, and went "erghhh GTFO!". I don't think either of them needed to be in the film. Han could have just taken Rey straight to Leia, and it might have made more sense her having Luke's lightsaber anyway, and Golem, err I mean Snoke had such a small part, he didn't need to be shown at all. Hopefully, in the next films there will be important story that justifies them making an appearance. But on the other hand, I'd also like to never see them again... So lose/lose.

Aside from that (and perhaps a few awkwardly delivered lines by Daisy Ripley) I thought the film was spot on. Loved it!

I thinky they overdid it with the youthful exuberance of Finn and Rey. When they reached space in the Millenium Falcon and were all "Duuuuude! Did you see that? That was awesome!" I wanted to barf.

As for the Rey - Krylo fight scene in the woods and Kylo kept chopping the trees down with his wild swings and slashes, it was a nice throwback to Luke and Vader in Coud City when Vader starts chopping up the railings and catwalks.

 Smacks wrote:

One thing I was a bit upset about is that Han's Death is spoiled by the trailer. It's only a small gripe since it's easy to guess what is about to happen

As soon as he confronted Ben I was thinking "We have already seen every scene with him from the trailer, there is nothing left..." and prepared for it.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
My only problem was the Starkiller base. As for super weapons it's too closely related to a Deathstar. A big round death ball with extremely fatal design flaw. Not to mention a star would go supernova and then collapse if you "vacuumed" off the outer layers. I also guess the SW universe is able to move a whole planet via hyperspace? JJ needs to lay off the super impossible science a bit. I know Star Wars is more Space Opera than Sci-fi but take it back a notch JJ. just my opinion.

As for the ship argument I really don't care about differences with: T-65 vs. T-70, or Tie vs. Tie mk 2. Where the hell where the A-wings, B-wings, Interceptors...etc.?

Given the stupidity that the EU contained, a planet sized Deathstar is hardly a major offender. Not when there used to be fighters capable of blowing up stars and space otters having fist fights with Han Solo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Perhaps the Galaxy has been partitioned in someway and the First Order is the legal goverment of some other section of the Galaxy and The Resistance is foreign sponsored rebel group within their territory?

That kinda what it appears to be.

The Empire and the Republic have split the galaxy and are technically at peace. The Resistance and the First Order are smaller factions which are supported by the Republic and Empire to fight each other without all out war(though with the Republic crippled with what happened who knows what will happen now)

I heard no mention of the Empire so that seems to be truly dead.

Why would The Republic be crippled? Wasn't that just a some star system? It wasn't Corusant was it? I think I remember them mentioning how a lot of their fleet is there but still I can't imagine their entire military is in one system.

They did mention the Empire. And Coruscant is apparently NOT the capital of the Republic, rather the system that was destroyed was the capital. I forget what they called it though.

I googled it. The Hosnian system is the new capital. Well old capital now I guess. Maybe they'll move it back to Corusant now. Also, while looking that up saw nothing about the Empire. In what context is The Empire mentioned?

Just one thing:

I don't know if Rey can be Luke's daughter, when she doesn't have the trademark Skywalker Whine. Even Kylo Ren/Ben has it in spades through his mother.

Or maybe like Leia, the Skywalker women are the tough ones.

 d-usa wrote:
As soon as he confronted Ben I was thinking "We have already seen every scene with him from the trailer, there is nothing left..." and prepared for it.

Heh, I don't think I was prepared for it. Even though I knew it was coming, I think I might have still visibly gasped with disbelief when Han Solo died. I'm really kicking myself that it wasn't a bit more of a surprise. My friend refused to watch any of the trailers, or read anything about it until the film came out, and I kind of envy him now.

Looking forward, I'm also a little apprehensive about Harrison Ford being out so early in the series. It was a pretty awesome moment of drama, but now we're a solid actor down (can't see him coming back as a force ghost). That's going to be a hard gap to fill. I suppose we've got Mark Hamill tagging in, and Oscar Isaac could certainly do with more screen time. But still... All the Star Wars so far without Han Solo have been a bit rubbish

Also, after reading the link about differences with the novel versus the movie, I definitely need to grab the book.

 Smacks wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
As soon as he confronted Ben I was thinking "We have already seen every scene with him from the trailer, there is nothing left..." and prepared for it.

Heh, I don't think I was prepared for it. Even though I knew it was coming, I think I might have still visibly gasped with disbelief when Han Solo died. I'm really kicking myself that it wasn't a bit more of a surprise. My friend refused to watch any of the trailers, or read anything about it until the film came out, and I kind of envy him now.

Looking forward, I'm also a little apprehensive about Harrison Ford being out so early in the series. It was a pretty awesome moment of drama, but now we're a solid actor down (can't see him coming back as a force ghost). That's going to be a hard gap to fill. I suppose we've got Mark Hamill tagging in, and Oscar Isaac could certainly do with more screen time. But still... All the Star Wars so far without Han Solo have been a bit rubbish

Don't worry, he will be back.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
As soon as he confronted Ben I was thinking "We have already seen every scene with him from the trailer, there is nothing left..." and prepared for it.

Heh, I don't think I was prepared for it. Even though I knew it was coming, I think I might have still visibly gasped with disbelief when Han Solo died. I'm really kicking myself that it wasn't a bit more of a surprise. My friend refused to watch any of the trailers, or read anything about it until the film came out, and I kind of envy him now.

Looking forward, I'm also a little apprehensive about Harrison Ford being out so early in the series. It was a pretty awesome moment of drama, but now we're a solid actor down (can't see him coming back as a force ghost). That's going to be a hard gap to fill. I suppose we've got Mark Hamill tagging in, and Oscar Isaac could certainly do with more screen time. But still... All the Star Wars so far without Han Solo have been a bit rubbish

Don't worry, he will be back.

I wouldn't trust an interview given before the premier since saying "everybody will be back except the guy that died" would have been bad PR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This hints at no Han Solo in the future:

https://www.yahoo.com/games/news/star-wars-7-cast-salaries-165300016.html

 d-usa wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
As soon as he confronted Ben I was thinking "We have already seen every scene with him from the trailer, there is nothing left..." and prepared for it.

Heh, I don't think I was prepared for it. Even though I knew it was coming, I think I might have still visibly gasped with disbelief when Han Solo died. I'm really kicking myself that it wasn't a bit more of a surprise. My friend refused to watch any of the trailers, or read anything about it until the film came out, and I kind of envy him now.

Looking forward, I'm also a little apprehensive about Harrison Ford being out so early in the series. It was a pretty awesome moment of drama, but now we're a solid actor down (can't see him coming back as a force ghost). That's going to be a hard gap to fill. I suppose we've got Mark Hamill tagging in, and Oscar Isaac could certainly do with more screen time. But still... All the Star Wars so far without Han Solo have been a bit rubbish

Don't worry, he will be back.

I wouldn't trust an interview given before the premier since saying "everybody will be back except the guy that died" would have been bad PR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This hints at no Han Solo in the future:

https://www.yahoo.com/games/news/star-wars-7-cast-salaries-165300016.html

Their only explanation is his pay, but if you look at this, it tells a different story.

http://nerdist.com/harrison-ford-got-a-huge-payday-for-star-wars-the-force-awakens/

He will be back in some way. Flashback to explain Kylo's past or as a Force Ghost. Like it says, he is the only proven box office draw of the cast.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

Like it says, he is the only proven box office draw of the cast.

Well, the same could have been said of the OT. Harrison Ford and Sir Alec Guinness were the only people with any notable acting careers prior to the movie, and they weren't hugely popular at the time.

And its Star Wars. I think you'd have to try really really hard not to get a box office draw.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

Like it says, he is the only proven box office draw of the cast.

And its Star Wars. I think you'd have to try really really hard not to get a box office draw.

That is true, George tried it with the prequels and people still went.....

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Still say I wasn't completely thrilled with rei. Sure luke was also mary sue and Anakin was mary sue but rei never had any training whatsoever and just did all these force powers and even beat kylo ren in a duel. Kylo Ren had years of training under luke skywalker. Also if we're talking about luke blowing up the death star that was under the guidance of obi-wan's spirit ghost. Also watch luke's duel against darth vader. Luke gets his butt kicked. If we're already showing the awesome 2nd in command baddie getting his butt kicked by Rei then what's left? There's only really one big bad sith master at that point and he/she better not disappoint.

Basically yes it is a mary sue family but I feel like rei took it to new heights. Funny how kylo ren got stuck with all the emo and rei got stuck with all the mary sue. That seems kinda unfair.

Neither Luke nor Anakin are Mary Sues. Luke isnt a Mary Sue because he stumbles and falls quite a bit. He gets shot by the remote drone on the Falcon and basically cries about it. He gets knocked out and mauled by a Wampa. He nearly freezes to death escaping the Wampa. He ignores what hes being told by his mentor and teacher to do what is most expedient to him. He gets his arm chopped off by his dad. The only reason he even destroys the Death Star is because A- Han saves him from Vader and B- Kenobi helps guide him through the force (and actually, as a child, for whatever reasom I had always assumed that the torps were sucked in to the exhaust port rather than guided in by the Force. I knowx it doesnt make any sense that an *exhaust* port would be an air intake, especially in space, but 3 year old logic.

Anakin comes across as a Mary Sue - he becomes an overnight ace pilot, champion racer, jedi prodigy, etc. but he is in fact one of the most deeply flawed characters thus far in the setting (except for maybe Kylo). One of his key character flaws is his pride, which nearly gets him, Padme, and/or Obi-Wan killed on several occasions, as well as costing him an arm and earning himself a facial scar. To top it all off, he inadvertently becomes the reason for the Emperors rise to power and the virtual extinction of all the Jedi, despite i itially trying to *prevent* it. It would be hard to find someone who is less of a Mary Sue than Anakin.

Rey, on the other hand, has no obvious character flaws or personality defects. She is successful at nearly everything she tries, and displays a greater and more rapid mastery of the Force than either Anakin or Luke found possible, despite having absolutely no training or mentorship. She is, both metaphorically and literally, self-empowered, which isnt specifically a bad thing, but taken into consideration with all the other aspects of the herself, makes for an unbelievable and unrelatable character which is also considerably overpowered for her universe. The unrelatable bit is especially important, as the lead character in films like this is supposed to be a "blank slate" in order to serve as a surrogate for the audience.

This is why Luke works so well as a main character, because he is average and unexamplary in every way at the start of the film, allowing the audience to step into his shoes from the first scene and instantly relate to him. This allows us to feel as though *we* are in fact part of something greater as the story develops and he becomes more powerful and capable. This is also why the prequels fail - there is no relatable lead character. Actually, fod much of the trilogy there is no clear cut lead character at all. QuiGon and ObiWan split time for mozt of the film, Anakin only really pops up halfway through and then becomes largely irrelevant again by the end of the film (aside from the otherwise forgetable space combat sequence). The second and third films split their time between Anakin and Obi-Wan as well.

Interestingly, the character in TFA that *is* most relatable is Finn. You may be saying to yourself "How is a runaway stormtrooper a blank slate? They have training and conditioning and experiences most people will never relate to." The answer is actually quite simple, friend. The training and conditioning didnt work, he learned nothing from it (or so it seems). Beyond that, by virtue of being a child soldier, he knows nothing of real life or the wider world, only what he has been raised to do, so in effect he is born again when he leaves the First Order and set free to experience a wider world (much the way Luke was on the death of his parents). I dont know if this was intentional or not on the parts of the writers/JJ, but its something theyre going to have to figure out going forward of they want Rey to truly be the star of the show.

Of course, how he's able to fly an advanced starfighter after only "dusting crops" is another thing we just all accept.And then there is Anakin, who had no knowledge of the Force prior to meeting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan but he's able to use it to pilot a podracer, something that no other human can do.

Its always been the case that starships in Star Wars are like cars in our world, not particularly difficult or complex to operate, its actually implied within the film(s) whenever someone makes the claim that theyre a pilot despite never having operated an exoatmospheric craft, nobody ever calls them on it or questions their ability. This is true in TPM, in ANH, and in TFA. And if you refer to non-film material, such as the visual doctionaries and tech guides,etc including the ones for TFA, they even point out that starfighters, X-Wings in particular, are designed to be simple to fly so that even an inexperienced bush-pilot (the term used to describe Luke IIRC) can fly them without training. As for Anakin, its been implied in a few places within the canon (actually outright stated) that untrained force sensitive individualscna make limited intuitive use of the force without being consciously aware of it. Unlike Rey who is very consciously aware of it

This doesn't say much, however, as none of the Star Wars movies are particularly good films.

Out.

At best Ren is 30 but more realistically he's probably early to mid 20's with Ridley being late teen/early 20's.

JJ confirmed hes 28-30 yrs old.

Rey actually seemed a little more skillful, because she has the transferable skills from teaching herself to use a staff.

Speaking from experience, there are no real world transferable skills going from a blunt staff to a bladed swordlike weapon.

Even Luke Skywalker himself was never fully trained, and it showed in his relatively simplistic duels with Darth Vader, compared to the duels of past generations of Jedi in their prime at the height of the Republic (Obi Wan, Qui Gonn, Yoda, Dooku, Anakin, Mace Windu, Palpatine et al). Luke had the impossible task of rebuilding the Jedi Order from scratch, and failed.

Yoda would disagree, he tells Luke his teaining is complete and he can teach him nothing else. And dont get me started on the implications of Lukes failure on the previous stories.

Also, I don't get what this First Order is. Seems like JJ really wanted to preserve that Imperial-Rebel dynamic so bad it doesn't really make sense.

Thats exactly what JJ was trying to do. In fact, the film more or less only serves to wipe the slate clean and revert the state of affairs within the setting back to something similar to what it was at the time of ANH. Most of the events that transpire between the end of Return of the Jedi and the end of TFA basically serve to deconstruct whatever it was that occurs over the course of the original trilogy, and the implied events that would occur following them. In the EU it took a decade + after Endor to defeat the Empire. In the new canon it takes 1 year and 4 days. In the EU Luke repopulates the galaxy with a new generation of Jedi. In the new canon Luke fails to do so, creates a new sith lord (or sith stand in) and then goes into self imposed exile like his former mentors. Leia went back to leading a rebellion, Han went back to owing people money, etc etc etc. In fact, Starkiller base can be seen as both literally and metaphircally destroying the reality that Lucas created when it destroys the Republic via Hosnian Prime. The setting has essentially stagnated (intentionally) in order to give Disney, etc the chance to apply around in a fresh sandbox, and to me thats probably one of the biggest tragedies of this new film.

A good article that describes it better than I can: http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/12/star-wars-the-force-awakens-disappointment-debate-nostalgia/421332/?utm_source=SFFB

Also, a continuity lesson since a lot of you are confused:

At the Battle of Jakku (1 year and 4 days after Endor), the newly founded New Republic defeats the Empire and wrecks a good portion of their fleet. The Empire is forced to its knees and agrees tk a truce/peace treaty with the Republic, the terms of which are pretty harsh (think Treaty of Versailles post WW1) - much of the Empires military is dismantled and disarmed, what they are allowed to keep is severely limited in size, quantity, and capability, and is limited to opersting within certain boundaries creating a demitarized zone between the Empire and Republics borders.

Because there is no longer a legitimate threat to the New Republics security, as well as the paranoia resulting from Chancellor Mon Mothma retaining emergency powers while the Republic establishes itself, etc. the Republic demilitarizes and maintains only a token fleet and instead chooses to focus on domestic issues. It is decided that the capital of the Republic, as well as the Senate, will rotate to the mem er world of the newly elected chancellor for a 4 year time, thus at the time of TFA the Republic capital, and much of its mitary, was stationed on Hosnian. At this point, the Republic controls most of the inner/mid rim area, while the Smpire is forced out to the outer rim and retains control of the galactic inner core as well.

Now, the First Order is not the Empire. The First Order is a group of Imperial Hardliners who fled into the Unonown Regions to regroup and rebuild. They eventually emerged with the goal of bringing down the Republic and reesfablishing the Empire as the sole power in the galaxy.

The Resistance, on the other hand, is essentially Leias private army which she founded to keep tabs on the Empire and later to combat the influence of the First Order. It is unofficially supported by the Republic, not in the sense that its supplied in secret like the US did the Mujahideen, but in the sense that, for the most lart the Depublic government has nothing to do with it (the book makes it lretty clear that Leia cant exactly return to the Republic without being imprisoned/executed/assassinated, etc) and relies on the patronage of sympathetic benefactors.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Rey, on the other hand, has no obvious character flaws or personality defects. She is successful at nearly everything she tries, and displays a greater and more rapid mastery of the Force than either Anakin or Luke found possible, despite having absolutely no training or mentorship. She is, both metaphorically and literally, self-empowered, which isnt specifically a bad thing, but taken into consideration with all the other aspects of the herself, makes for an unbelievable and unrelatable character which is also considerably overpowered for her universe. The unrelatable bit is especially important, as the lead character in films like this is supposed to be a "blank slate" in order to serve as a surrogate for the audience.

Actually, we have no clue if she had "absolutely no training or mentorship" yet. It is actually hinted at in the flashback she went through she was a padawan at one point. Which would explain her rapid development of the force. There is also a chance she is Luke's daughter, which would make her very strong in the force. Remember, Anakin was manifesting force powers much younger than she is now by being able to pod race. We have pretty much discussed and debunked everything in your argument here. She is not successful at everything she tries because she is knocked unconscious and captured. She has to be saved at the beginning in the camp by Finn, otherwise she would have been captured by storm troopers or blown up by the air strike they called in.

chaos0xomega wrote:Speaking from experience, there are no real world transferable skills going from a blunt staff to a bladed swordlike weapon.

A lightsaber is unlike any weapon on earth, you cannot compare it to any bladed swordlike weapon because the blade itself has no weight to it. There is also a chance she was given rudimentary training in light saber combat as a padawan, which it is hinted at her being. Also, Finn could use it fairly well, having 0 experience with it, he was able to wound Kylo.

chaos0xomega wrote:Yoda would disagree, he tells Luke his teaining is complete and he can teach him nothing else. And dont get me started on the implications of Lukes failure on the previous stories.

He was trained in Jedi philosophy, but never trained in lightsaber combat. Yoda probably told him he can teach him nothing else because he pretty much died right after finishing his training. It was more of a time thing for Yoda.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Its always been the case that starships in Star Wars are like cars in our world,

No it hasn't, at least not in the original films.

That's why Han Solo balks at the thought of some kid (Luke) buying is own spaceship to fly off of Tatooine. He then goes on later to make the point that piloting an actual starship isn't like cruising around with your friends in an airspeeder or "dusting crops."


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 Dreadwinter wrote:
She is not successful at everything she tries because she is knocked unconscious and captured. She has to be saved at the beginning in the camp by Finn, otherwise she would have been captured by storm troopers or blown up by the air strike they called in.

That's my favorite part about the people complaining about Rey; just about everyone doing says, "she never fails... except for that one time."

Rey is a bad ass character who is good at a lot of things and happens to be a woman... so what? I'm the father of two girls who love Star Wars and I can't explain how thrilled I was to see that Rey is, without a doubt, the new lead of this trilogy.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Its always been the case that starships in Star Wars are like cars in our world,

No it hasn't, at least not in the original films.

That's why Han Solo balks at the thought of some kid (Luke) buying is own spaceship to fly off of Tatooine. He then goes on later to make the point that piloting an actual starship isn't like cruising around with your friends in an airspeeder or "dusting crops."

And let's not forget that Han is talking about a civilian transport ship, not a flying a high-performance fighter in combat. Luke doesn't just manage to take off and land in one piece with little or no training, he takes an x-wing into combat, dogfights and kills trained professionals, survives a torpedo run with Vader on his tail, and makes a shot that his veteran squadron leader couldn't make. The real-world equivalent would be a guy with a few hours in a Cessna 152 boasting about being able to fly a 737 just fine and then taking an F-22 into combat and becoming an ace in a single fight. In reality if you tried that you'd be dead, and the only question is if you'd manage to avoid crashing that F-22 long enough to get shot down by an enemy.

Conclusion: Luke is a Mary Sue.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Interestingly, the character in TFA that *is* most relatable is Finn. You may be saying to yourself "How is a runaway stormtrooper a blank slate? They have training and conditioning and experiences most people will never relate to." The answer is actually quite simple, friend. The training and conditioning didnt work, he learned nothing from it (or so it seems). Beyond that, by virtue of being a child soldier, he knows nothing of real life or the wider world, only what he has been raised to do, so in effect he is born again when he leaves the First Order and set free to experience a wider world (much the way Luke was on the death of his parents). I dont know if this was intentional or not on the parts of the writers/JJ, but its something theyre going to have to figure out going forward of they want Rey to truly be the star of the show.

There is something about Rey that I'm sure quite a few of us can relate to - she works a minimum wage job for long days, only earning enough to stay alive, probably quite sure her employer is cheating her and unable to change anything about it. Well, until she finds BB-8 and meets Finn. And she's not the one that makes the plot go forward. She doesn't deliver the droid to the Resistance, she doesn't blow up Starkiller base (or even help with it), she doesn't have a ship to escape with and she is of no use in putting together the map. Surely a real Mary Sue would have done those things too, and everyone would have loved her forever and always?

 Smacks wrote:
Looking forward, I'm also a little apprehensive about Harrison Ford being out so early in the series. It was a pretty awesome moment of drama, but now we're a solid actor down (can't see him coming back as a force ghost). That's going to be a hard gap to fill.

And that's exactly why they had to kill Han. The new movies are supposed to be about the next generation of characters, not Han doing awesome stuff while everyone else kind of fills in the background scenes. Without that gap for the new characters to fill the series just can't move forward.

Spetulhu wrote:
There is something about Rey that I'm sure quite a few of us can relate to - she works a minimum wage job for long days, only earning enough to stay alive, probably quite sure her employer is cheating her and unable to change anything about it.

I have to admit, that gave me a good chuckle.

I mean, I genuinely enjoy my career and I make decent money, but goddamn if I wouldn't be thrilled to come into work one day and find BB-8 rolling about. I fething love that droid!

Well, until she finds BB-8 and meets Finn. And she's not the one that makes the plot go forward. She doesn't deliver the droid to the Resistance, she doesn't blow up Starkiller base (or even help with it), she doesn't have a ship to escape with and she is of no use in putting together the map. Surely a real Mary Sue would have done those things too, and everyone would have loved her forever and always?

Yes.

There is no denying that Rey is an unrealistic character... that lives in an unrealistic universe filled with other unrealistic characters.

 Peregrine wrote:

And let's not forget that Han is talking about a civilian transport ship, not a flying a high-performance fighter in combat. Luke doesn't just manage to take off and land in one piece with little or no training,

Let's be honest here Pere, take of and landing are automated, and not just by the astromech.

he takes an x-wing into combat, dogfights and kills trained professionals,

Rubbish. He makes a couple runs at the surface, causing superficial damage and nearly crashing after being told to pull up. The one TIE he kills is busy targeting Biggs. He doesn't dog fight, he backstabs. He's then immediately picked up, hit by a TIE and has to be saved by Wedge. So if by 'dogfights and kills trained professionals' you mean he cheap shots a single TIE focused on someone else then yeah.

survives a torpedo run with Vader on his tail,

Because he was saved by Han. Wedge and Red leader also survive the run (admittedly Red Leader doesn't last much longer but he does survive Vader).

and makes a shot that his veteran squadron leader couldn't make.

Failed to make. He didn't do the impossible. And with the assistance of a jedi master force ghost.

Conclusion: Luke is a Mary Sue.

Except as pointed out all the times Luke fails or needs saving. Such as the Tuskans, the cantina, the cell block, the garbage disposal (from the monster and compactor) and Obi-Wan's sacrifice so they could all escape. Yeah other than all the times Luke needs help he's a total Mary Sue.