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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
She is the MVP of the whole freaking show with a possible exception to Poe (they really didn't show the old cast doing much did they). She beats down a trained jedi (complete training or not), saves finn (who is more of a damsel in distress than anything), she's a decent pilot without much if any possible training considering her previous occupation as scavenger and she jedi mind tricks without much knowledge that she's even probably a jedi.

I would like to point out that why everything you just wrote is wrong has been explained by multiple people.

Oh but please claim sexism considering I love lots of strong female characters like Dizzy being the best girl in Starship troopers (who btw killed a big bug with a grenade toss), the black woman in firefly, sarah conner in terminator 2 and ripley in aliens.

No one cares what characters from other franchises you like and no one is calling anyone a sexist.

Also if we're claiming being offensive towards women and possibly also black people I was actually disappointed with how pathetic I found Finn. He really should be doing more than he is and yet I just couldn't like him.

Finn should have done more? Did you watch this movie? He's the reason the Resistance gets BB-8 and he is the one that gives them all the information they needed to destroy Starkiller Base. There wouldn't have been a climax without him.

Believe it or not I actually support the supposed fan theory that Poe and Finn are gay for each other. It makes infinitely more sense than the Rei and Finn relationship. People might just be projecting what they want to see though. Maybe those two guys are just really good buddies though. Disney would totally never allow a gay relationship though and I'm not sure everybody would accept it in a family film these days.

Rey and Finn aren't going to be in a relationship; they're going to be like family because it's possible for a man and woman to be friends. They don't always need to be interested in each other or related.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
She is the MVP of the whole freaking show with a possible exception to Poe (they really didn't show the old cast doing much did they).

Well yes, considering the fact that Rey and Finn are clearly set up to be the main characters of the series it's pretty obvious that she's going to be the MVP. This is like claiming that Luke is a Mary Sue because he was the MVP of ANH.

And do you know why they didn't show the old cast doing much? Because this isn't a movie about the old cast. They're in the movie to provide a "bridge" between the two series, but the story is supposed to be about the next generation of characters.

She beats down a trained jedi (complete training or not)

She hardly "beats down a trained jedi". Kylo Ren isn't fully trained, is already wounded and clearly feeling the effects of it, and Rey actually loses the fight until he decides to try to turn her to the dark side instead of just finishing her off. And her "win" really consists of surviving long enough to escape.

saves finn (who is more of a damsel in distress than anything)

How exactly is this Mary Sue worthy?

she's a decent pilot without much if any possible training considering her previous occupation as scavenger

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Since when did being decent at something qualify a character for Mary Sue status?

and she jedi mind tricks without much knowledge that she's even probably a jedi.

So what? Do you have any evidence that the jedi mind trick is actually difficult?

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Boy do I look forward to this argument for the next two years.....

Hell hath no fury like a nerd scorned...

Finn tries to impress Rei. If nothing else this is like when luke and han were trying to win leia's affection.

Rei is just too good for a noob. The stuff she does isn't massively impressive for a main character but for a noob main character it is. She beat the 2nd top baddie in the freaking series in the first movie in a trilogy. That doesn't leave much for her to do unless it's all about the top baddie in the final film.

------

Lol when talking about this with a friend I told him, 'Luke's hand was held for much of the original trilogy." and he said, "Till it got cut off." Considering he came up with such an awesome response in about 3 seconds that's a perfect explanation of how long it took before luke stood on his own two feet in the movies and that it's a rib on being both literal and figurative hand getting cut off I thought I'd share that. Seriously that response deserves some acknowledgment.

I promise that I'm only going to bang this drum one last time before bailing out, and if I don't, the Mods can throw me in the dakka dungeon...or lock me out or something.

The reason why people are arguing and speculating about background, and plotting, and characters is simple:

the script was a mess - a shameless remake of a New Hope.

People have defended TFA by saying that there wasn't a lot of background in a new hope, but this wasn't needed.

When Vader appears, you're in no doubt who is good and who is evil. When you see Peter Cushing blow the feth out of a planet, it's very clear. This is a dictatorship, and the rebels are fighting for freedom.

Crystal clear. No explanations needed.

Occasionally, you get a snippet from Alec Guinness about the Clone Wars, or his foster parents getting worried that he's ending up like his father, which is enough to push the story on.

TFA is different. Due to the script being messy, JJ Abrams has to pull rabbits out of the hat to distract you.

Who are the New Republic? Here's an action scene to distract you.

Who are the resistance? Um...buy the companion book. You think that a film should tell you this?

Is Snoke Darth Plague Marine? Nah, that was just bad CGI, and so it goes on.

I know as well as anybody that Star Wars doesn't stand up to scrutiny half the time, and yes, at the end of the day, it's fun entertainment,

but c'mon, we've waited 30 years (well I have anyway ) to find out what happened to the old cast

and we get this confused mess of a film, with the death of one of popular culture's most iconic characters handled in a half ass manner

It's all very amateurish...







Automatically Appended Next Post:
One last rant!

Why the feth do stormtroopers wear that white armour in the desert?

Where's the camouflage??

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Finn tries to impress Rei. If nothing else this is like when luke and han were trying to win leia's affection.

Yeah he is, but that doesn't mean they are going to fall in love.

Rei is just too good for a noob. The stuff she does isn't massively impressive for a main character but for a noob main character it is. She beat the 2nd top baddie in the freaking series in the first movie in a trilogy. That doesn't leave much for her to do unless it's all about the top baddie in the final film.

First of all, it's spelled "Rey." "Rei" is an outdoor recreation equipment retailer. Secondly, I'm not going to explain why what you wrote is wrong because myself and other people have already done it multiple times.

But please, keep beating that dead horse.

Seriously that response deserves some acknowledgment.

Not really, it's not as clever as you think it is.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Rei is just too good for a noob. The stuff she does isn't massively impressive for a main character but for a noob main character it is.

IOW, just like Luke and Anakin before her. Both of them were "noob main characters" that accomplished some pretty impressive feats in their first movies. It's just absurd to single out Rey for criticism when she's following the well-established role of main characters in a Star Wars movie.

She beat the 2nd top baddie in the freaking series in the first movie in a trilogy. That doesn't leave much for her to do unless it's all about the top baddie in the final film.

Sigh. Again, no, she didn't beat him. She survived the second most powerful bad guy. Even though he was already wounded (and clearly suffering the effects of the wound) Rey LOST THE FIGHT. She was backed up at the edge of a cliff and clearly about to die, except the bad guy decided to try to turn her to the dark side instead of finishing her off. And when she rejects the offer and calls on the light side of the force to fight back she doesn't kill him, she just holds him off long enough for the ground to open up and separate them. If you're worried about her running out of credible opponents then that's a problem with your lack of imagination, not with the movie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, where does this idea that Rey has no training come from? Did you forget the scene early in the movie where she beats up the gang of droid thieves with her staff? She might not have any lightsaber training, but she clearly knows something about melee combat. It's not like she picks up a weapon for the first time and is suddenly a master with it.

How do we know Kylo is the second biggest baddie?

We just speculating now?

 Dreadwinter wrote:
How do we know Kylo is the second biggest baddie?

We just speculating now?

He was in that movie. Maybe not within the next three though.

Why does she understand wookie though?

And actually she was on the verge of beating him, before she was on the verge, which is why he's on his back at the end of the fight.

Also something about pulling off some manoeuvres in the Falcon, the only other person who comes close to similar tricky flying is Ace Pilot "Totally Not Wedge Antilles" .

She also beats Kylo Ren (Rylo Ken?) at pulling the lightsaber out,because 'the force'.

So she's an ace mechanic, an ace pilot, great at languages, get's extraordinarily lucky with whichever force ability she tries out, competent enough in cc that she can transfer staff fighting to (after another force deus ex machina) lightsaber combat.

But she forgets the safety before shooting a fair number of storm troopers (as well as anyone else who uses a blaster) despite her knowledge of gun use being "you just pull the trigger", I've never handled a gun before, but that's basically my experience with them, maybe I'll be a good a shot as she is (and also Han is [goes from making a no look behind the back shot to needing the bowcaster to clear some guys out]).

Then she get's captured while using a gun against the inadequately trained guy who manages to deflect everyone of her shots before he stops her in place. Then resists force interrogation (in fact turns it around) and doesn't use her hands to Jedi mind trick her way out of the restraints (ok she yells at the guy a few times before he comes over, but all other examples of mind trickery happen at people who are fairly close anyhow, so I would assume it has a finite range).

But again her ability to get out of any situation, didn't leave me feeling she was in any danger at any point. Whereas I stopped worrying about Finn as he struggled with most situations he was thrown into, and the contrast between the two was quite jarring for me.

Everything you mentioned has been explained in the last page of two multiple times.

Except for one thing, the light saber. She has already had a very strange reaction to it that we have never seen before. It seems she has some sort of special connection with it, I assume because of it being her father's (lukes).

As far as never feeling she was in any danger. Guys, this is Star Wars, not Game of Thrones. They are not going to kill off the main character, especially in the first movie. We all know this. Did anyone ever really feel like Luke was in real danger? I sure didn't. Same goes for Obi-wan and Anakin. A character does not have to be involved in a life threatening situation constantly to have a compelling story. I find it far more interesting to see how these characters get out of sticky situations instead of constantly fighting for survival.

I really hope we see more Poe Dameron in the next movie. I really liked what little we saw of that character.

Deflecting blaster bolts doesn't seem that hard. Luke was doing it blindfolded the second time he ever turned a lightsaber on.

 carlos13th wrote:
I really hope we see more Poe Dameron in the next movie. I really liked what little we saw of that character.

I wouldn't be surprised if Poe got his own movie at some point.

He really seems like a stand in for Wedge Antilles, given his personality and super pilot status. Didn't the guy who played Wedge refuse to ever return to the franchise? I seem to remember reading something like that.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

New girl does well at just about everything (pilot, force powers and even some dueling). Keep this in mind luke wasn't fully trained and vader beat the crap out of him in 'empire strikes back'. Rei's already beaten the #2 villain of the movies in the first movie. What more is left? You made her too strong.

You assume that Ren will not have gotten stronger between now and episode 8.

Remember, the dark side is the quicker route to power. He could completely surpass her in the next film if he gets more training. Which he most likely will if it follows the 1) End on a high, 2) End on a down, 3) end high again formula from the original trilogy.

 Peregrine wrote:
IOW, just like Luke and Anakin before her. Both of them were "noob main characters" that accomplished some pretty impressive feats in their first movies. It's just absurd to single out Rey for criticism when she's following the well-established role of main characters in a Star Wars movie.

In a discussion about TFA- a film not featuring Luke (well, not in any meaningful way) or Anakin- it's entirely correct to single her out. And again, even if those characters are badly written, that's not a defense of her being badly written.

Sigh. Again, no, she didn't beat him. She survived the second most powerful bad guy

Rubbish. She forces him back and inflicts THREE wounds on him, leaving HIM on the ground. She doesn't survive him, he survives her.

Even though he was already wounded (and clearly suffering the effects of the wound)

And she's just been picked up and smashed into a tree, then dropped 20 feet to the ground. Hard enough to render her unconscious. If the telekinetic wave that sent her flying isn't enough to injure her, the surely hitting the tree at speed is, or falling 20 feet to the ground. Be honest and acknowledge she wasn't 100% either.

Rey LOST THE FIGHT.

In what world is 'unscathed and standing ' the loser when your enemy is thrice wounded and lying on the ground?

And when she rejects the offer and calls on the light side of the force to fight back she doesn't kill him, she just holds him off long enough for the ground to open up and separate them.

Ok this is getting absurd. Let's have a gif shall we??


Sorry dude but if you think she lost the fight, just held him off and didn't soundly beat him there's not much more to say.

Also, where does this idea that Rey has no training come from?

By and large the idea is she has no training with a lightsaber, not zero melee competency at all. But saber dueling is both physical and with the force, and it's safe to say she has zero training in those two areas whilst Ren has training in both.

Am I think only one who thinks of Snooki when someone says Snoke? Every time he has been mentioned I get the mental picture of a chubby, spray tanned chick in PJs with a light saber.

The novelization of the movie supports the theory that she has training even more than the movie.

In the movie Kylo Ren acts like he recognizes her and is hiding that from people.

In the book he is trying to get the light saber and when he sees it fly to her hands instead he goes "It is you".

 d-usa wrote:
The novelization of the movie supports the theory that she has training even more than the movie.

In the movie Kylo Ren acts like he recognizes her and is hiding that from people.

In the book he is trying to get the light saber and when he sees it fly to her hands instead he goes "It is you".

I'm wondering if she was a youngling at the new Jedi academy/temple that Luke had set up and was dumped on Jaaku after escaping it's destruction.

 Alex C wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
The novelization of the movie supports the theory that she has training even more than the movie.

In the movie Kylo Ren acts like he recognizes her and is hiding that from people.

In the book he is trying to get the light saber and when he sees it fly to her hands instead he goes "It is you".

I'm wondering if she was a youngling at the new Jedi academy/temple that Luke had set up and was dumped on Jaaku after escaping it's destruction.

Seems the prevalent theory seems to be "Luke's daughter, trained by him with the others, survived the massacre somehow".

Have a read of this article here.

I'll quote the relevant part:

As Rey touches it, she is hit with an impressionistic wave of images and sounds that depict a cloaked Luke Skywalker in mourning, reaching out for support (or to comfort) R2-D2 beside a fire. She sees bodies scattered in a rainstorm at the feet of Kylo Ren and the masked and menacing Knights of Ren. She sees herself as a young girl, being left in the coarse hands of junk dealer Unkar Plutt on the desert world of Jakku.

And within this, we hear at least two familiar voices: Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda. On Saturday night, I interviewed director J.J. Abrams and his co-screenwriters Lawrence Kasdan and Michael Arndt after a Writers Guild of America screening, and they revealed how – and why – that scene came together the way it did.

Abrams also confirmed that some iconic actors reprised their roles: Ewan McGregor, Frank Oz… and a clever editing movie also brought the late Alec Guinness, who died in 2000 at the age of 86, back to the Star Wars universe.

“The idea of the voices was, we wanted the audience to feel – but not necessarily be presented right in your face — this idea that familiar, Force-strong voices were connecting with her. At least as well as they could,” Abrams says.

So for those who saw the movie, but were just as overwhelmed as Rey as that moment hit: what did we hear?

“You do hear a little bit of Yoda. You hear Luke yelling out, ‘Nooo!’ from that moment in Empire. And you hear Obi-Wan at the end say, ‘Rey … these are your first steps,’”

Take that how you will.

I'm feeling short-changed if I have to buy the book as well as watch the film just to find out what's going on!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I'm feeling short-changed if I have to buy the book as well as watch the film just to find out what's going on!

I haven't read the book, but from what I have seen it doesn't really add anything new. It just explains things a little bit better. The big things from what I have seen:

1) It better explains how Poe got away from the crash.
2) It makes Starkiller Base just a tiny bit less stupid.
3) It explains why Leia is a General in the Resistance instead of a politician in the New Republic
4) It expands on Leia/Han/Ben a little bit.

 d-usa wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I'm feeling short-changed if I have to buy the book as well as watch the film just to find out what's going on!

I haven't read the book, but from what I have seen it doesn't really add anything new. It just explains things a little bit better. The big things from what I have seen:

1) It better explains how Poe got away from the crash.
2) It makes Starkiller Base just a tiny bit less stupid.
3) It explains why Leia is a General in the Resistance instead of a politician in the New Republic
4) It expands on Leia/Han/Ben a little bit.

Thanks for that. I'll wait a few months and see if I can pick it up cheap. Might be worth a read.

I may be cynical about the films, but by and large, I've had a positive experience with the Star Wars books and graphic novels, especially the EU stuff.

I don't think Rei is actually overpowered or a Mary Sue. What did Rei actually do?

1) Resisted a mind probe. Not exactly impressive. Even non-force sensitives could do this. Sure, she did counter-pry some information out of him, but he's not exactly hiding his desire to be like Vader nor is it likely he has been trained to resist probes himself. Heck, he probably learned to mind probe by himself and is just bumbling around.

2) She mind-tricked a Stormtrooper. After 3 unsuccessful attempts, she pulled off one of the easier mental tricks, on individuals defined as "weak minded".

3) Beat Kylo Ren, a guy who has not been sufficiently trained, in a duel, after he had already taken several injuries and was worn out from fighting Fyn, including one to his sword arm.

Thats not really all that impressive.

I really liked the little things, like Rey living in a wrecked AT-AT, Han getting that wicked glint in his eyes when he spoke to Captain Phasma about a trash compactor, and of course, Admiral Ackbar!

 warpcrafter wrote:
I really liked the little things, like Rey living in a wrecked AT-AT, Han getting that wicked glint in his eyes when he spoke to Captain Phasma about a trash compactor, and of course, Admiral Ackbar!

Was that Ackbar? I just assumed generic Mon Calamari.

 warpcrafter wrote:
I really liked the little things, like Rey living in a wrecked AT-AT, Han getting that wicked glint in his eyes when he spoke to Captain Phasma about a trash compactor, and of course, Admiral Ackbar!

I liked the part where Kylo Ren is having another hissy fit and there's two Storm Troops walking down the hall. One just taps the other on the arm to say "turn around".

 Alex C wrote:

 warpcrafter wrote:
I really liked the little things, like Rey living in a wrecked AT-AT, Han getting that wicked glint in his eyes when he spoke to Captain Phasma about a trash compactor, and of course, Admiral Ackbar!

Was that Ackbar? I just assumed generic Mon Calamari.

Dats racist tho

Just saw it and managed to avoid all spoilers, teasers, hell I didn't even see the trailer!

I have to say I liked it, I didn't love it, I love the original cuts of the first 3 movies. I hated Eps 1-3, and this was definitely better. Maybe I liked it more because I didn't hate it, if that makes sense.

Couple of things though.

The whole Han is Kylo's father was a totally wasted moment. They should have revealed that when Han faces him on the bridge. Yes, it would be more of a retread of Emipre Strikes Back/A New Hope, BUT at least it would have been a more powerful scene.

It would also have made more sense if Han and Chewie were actually tracking Kylo, rather than just being off on some other adventure, I mean he would have lied and pretended he was doing something else, but it could have been alluded to that his actual goal was to track Kylo after the First Order came back on the radar.

I thought Rei mind-tricking the stormtrooper was executed poorly. She's never seen a Jedi do it, maybe she heard stories about it but no way would she know the exact way it works. It would have been better if she was actually getting herself out of the shackles, the stormtrooper comes over to stop her and in frustration she yells at him to let her out and he complies. More of a nascent ability coming to the surface kinda thing.

The part where they shanghai Captain Phasma was totally weak. What, it's a high alert situation and she's just walking around by herself with no escort in some totally isolated and strategically unimportant area? Then she just helps them disable the shields? Why wouldn't she use that console to signal for help and THEN the heroes figure out a way to disable the shield anyways?

I was OK with the lightsaber fight at the end, I mean she knows how to fight with that bowstaff thing pretty well, the skills are likely transferable. Also, getting hit by Chewie's crossbow blaster is probably way more crippling than just getting thrown into a tree. Also, also, Kylo is actually affected by the death of his father way more than he expected, which is also throwing him off. However, he should have gotten WAY more hurt by being hit in the face with a lightsaber. Like, give him a reason to wear that mask now.

Those are just my knitpicks, overall I enjoyed the movie and give it a solid B+, the original trilogy being A, A+,A in that order and eps 1-3 are all D-'s or failure to complete by comparison.

PS, how the hell did the Mole Lady get Luke/Anakin's lightsaber? I mean, it fell out of a garbage chute into a gas planet!!!