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The thing is- brace yourself- Star Wars actually has some history and canon. Lots of it actually

No there's not.

6 previous movies, Clone wars cartoons, rebel's cartoon, couple of comic book series and that's it.

All the rest no longer counts remember.

. In that canon, it is well established that the 'space magic powers' take YEARS to become competent in. Years. And that's with a teacher.

But that's not true either is it ?

In the academy days, sure lots of training.

Nut Luke has a few hours of training with Obi-wan on the falcon, then a short while -- couple of days maybe at most ? -- with Yoda, which he spends running, levitating rocks etc etc -- and then leaves without finishing his training.

And then by Jedi he's apparently a master -- subject to confronting Vader -- which always struck me as a bit of a big leap up really. It's like going from killing giant rats in the inn's cellar with a rusty broadsword for a few gold pieces to having to fight the demi-lich the next day.

Now, sure, one assumes Luke and the gang all had a variety of adventures inbetween the films -- IIRC there's even mention of an encounter with bounty hunters or something ..? maybe ..? -- but he received no further training from actual force users.

In fact with regards to the mind control he saw Kenobi do it once and then repeated this at a later date with no evidence of training with the skill.
Didn't seem a lot to practise on in Dagoba IMO and he was busy with other training from what we saw.

or just helping Yoda get his shopping home

 Paradigm wrote:

The 4 major uses of the Force she displays are all in moments of heightened emotion (that ultimately lends power to The Force) and utter desperation (resisting Ren's probe, escaping the torture chamber, saving/avenging Finn, fighting back against Ren from the edge of defeat). Those factors combined make her display of power perfectly credible in my eyes, prior mind-wiped training or not.

People in this thread claim that Ren's heightened emotions contributed to his loss. Even though for a dark side user his emotions should be a source of power. In fact if Rey is drawing power/strength from emotion, she's drawing on the dark side.



Remember, when Ren accuses her of 'Still wanting to kill me' she doesn't deny it. She explains why. It's also the exact kind of mistake someone without training, knowing only legends, might make.

I kind of touched on this in my last post but it's worth expanding it given the discussion of Rey as a force-user, the rules and strictures of the Jedi Order are not necessarily beneficial to someone learning the ways of the Force. It may take a decade for someone to become competent as a Jedi, but that's a very specific approach steeped in dogma and tradition. This applies to Anakin, and to some extent to Luke as Yoda and Ben try to keep the old ways alive, but Rey has none of that, just an innate and deep connection to the force.

Her 'training', so far as we know, is her life experience. She's survived in the deserts of Jakku, hardly the most welcoming locale, for quite some time; in that period, she's had to become an adept mechanic, scavenger, fighter and pilot just to survive. It's entirely possible that the Force was already helping her here in the same way that it helped Anakin win pod races at the age of 9, and moreover, she's built up an exceptional will to survive, which when she comes to use the Force directly, means she's immediately possessed of the same mental fortitude that a Padawan under the Jedi would have learnt over years of exercises, training and eventually practice, but with none of the limits or dogma that comes with that.

Which in turn makes her powerful, but also very dangerous, and I think that's something that'll be played up in the next film. She looked very close to losing her cool towards the end of the fight with Ren, she's clearly a very emotional person who forms attachments very quickly (you can see that with Finn/Han/Chewie, all of whom she knows for a matter of days; perhaps that's a product of her very solitary lifestyle) and has none of the Jedi's training or guidance on how to separate her emotions from the power of the Force. In many ways, she's could well be a Force-sensitive time bomb waiting to go off; there's a reason that the Jedi for thousands of years attempted to channel their focus and resist their emotions, and Rey hasn't had that teaching. All it could take is on tragedy or loss, and she's instantly at the precipice of temptation and The Dark Side...

@Kojiro: Didn't see your post before posting this, but yep, exactly. Rey has already trod the line between Light and Dark, and has no knowledge of which is which. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if by the end of this trilogy, Rey and Ren have swapped places, her falling and him being redeemed. Not saying I think that'll happen, but it could and it could work, I think.

"knows the legends of like skywalker" people have issues with her attempting a jedi mind trick, seems pretty obvious to me.

I posted this in the thread for Star Trek Beyond but I'll post it here two because it's also relevant;

However, in both the cases of the rebooted Star Trek and Star Wars, people are overly obsessing superficial things, or proclaiming 'depth' where there frankly is none and never was. Star Wars and Star Trek are cultural icons and their logevity is partially driven by a lack of depth.A narrative simplicity that makes them kind of universal. People have so engrained those stories into themselves, that they take on a meaning far beyond anything the shows really had. Expecting the makers of new films to be able to read your mind and know what those stories mean to you is setting yourself up for disappointment because no one can do that.

 reds8n wrote:

The thing is- brace yourself- Star Wars actually has some history and canon. Lots of it actually

No there's not.

6 previous movies, Clone wars cartoons, rebel's cartoon, couple of comic book series and that's it.

All the rest no longer counts remember.

. In that canon, it is well established that the 'space magic powers' take YEARS to become competent in. Years. And that's with a teacher.

But that's not true either is it ?

In the academy days, sure lots of training.

Nut Luke has a few hours of training with Obi-wan on the falcon, then a short while -- couple of days maybe at most ? -- with Yoda, which he spends running, levitating rocks etc etc -- and then leaves without finishing his training.

And then by Jedi he's apparently a master -- subject to confronting Vader -- which always struck me as a bit of a big leap up really. It's like going from killing giant rats in the inn's cellar with a rusty broadsword for a few gold pieces to having to fight the demi-lich the next day.

Now, sure, one assumes Luke and the gang all had a variety of adventures inbetween the films -- IIRC there's even mention of an encounter with bounty hunters or something ..? maybe ..? -- but he received no further training from actual force users.

In fact with regards to the mind control he saw Kenobi do it once and then repeated this at a later date with no evidence of training with the skill.
Didn't seem a lot to practise on in Dagoba IMO and he was busy with other training from what we saw.

or just helping Yoda get his shopping home

Yes it does, just because Disney now says it isn't canon is irrelevant, this stuff pre dates thier ownership by quite a margin, so I consider everything up to the new films as canon and the new films as just replacing the original 7/8/9, I refuse to let Disney crap on the hard work of hundreds and hundreds of people over the decades.

 reds8n wrote:

No there's not.
6 previous movies, Clone wars cartoons, rebel's cartoon, couple of comic book series and that's it.
All the rest no longer counts remember.

Here's the list to date.
That's 7 movies (not including this one), 20 assorted books, 9 comics, 1 video game and 2 TV series (currently at 8+ seasons). Most franchises get far less.
It's also worth noting that while the EU may no longer be canon, I doubt all of it will stay that way. Much of it doesn't contradict the established canon and may well appear in upcoming works. I wouldn't call it unequivocally false is all I'm saying.

In the academy days, sure lots of training.

Well did that happen or not? And if it did, then we've got to explain why it's no longer a requirement now.

Nut Luke has a few hours of training with Obi-wan on the falcon, then a short while -- couple of days maybe at most ? -- with Yoda, which he spends running, levitating rocks etc etc -- and then leaves without finishing his training.

And is summarily beaten to a pulp. Yoda explicitly says his training isn't complete- it should be no surprise he lacks skills.

And then by Jedi he's apparently a master -- subject to confronting Vader -- which always struck me as a bit of a big leap up really. It's like going from killing giant rats in the inn's cellar with a rusty broadsword for a few gold pieces to having to fight the demi-lich the next day.

Actually he's a Knight, a lower, common rank for anyone who completes Jedi training. I will grant you that 'Go kill Vader' is a crappy final exam. I can only assume

Now, sure, one assumes Luke and the gang all had a variety of adventures inbetween the films -- IIRC there's even mention of an encounter with bounty hunters or something ..? maybe ..? -- but he received no further training from actual force users.

There's considerable time between the movies. 3-4 years. There are bounty hunter engagements and Luke even faces (albeit briefly) Vader in that time. He also visits at least two Jedi temples and undergoes some training, again with the assistance of Kenobi's force ghost. I'm not actually familiar with those books/comics (or the EU for that matter) so I can't really say how thorough that training was, but from research does incline me to believe it's significantly shorter than previous Jedi, so I'm with you there. But it's not wholly absent either.

In fact with regards to the mind control he saw Kenobi do it once and then repeated this at a later date with no evidence of training with the skill.
Didn't seem a lot to practise on in Dagoba IMO and he was busy with other training from what we saw.

But there's also like 7 years in between those events. Given it's one of the few things Ben did show him, it stands to reason he'd practice it over the years. That said, we never saw him learn to force choke but he does that too.

To be fair, a lot of that hard work amounted to very very badly written stories

 Paradigm wrote:
@Kojiro: Didn't see your post before posting this, but yep, exactly. Rey has already trod the line between Light and Dark, and has no knowledge of which is which. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if by the end of this trilogy, Rey and Ren have swapped places, her falling and him being redeemed. Not saying I think that'll happen, but it could and it could work, I think.

Don't worry, this thread is hellish hard to keep up on. I've probably missed replies. But I am thoroughly enjoying the discussion as a way to pass my Xmas days off.

But they will never turn Rey dark. Especially given the reception she's received. People are so invested in her, she's becoming such an icon that anything that happens to her will be scrutinised. If for example she has a romantic subplot, it better be entirely on her terms or people will be upset. Just as in this film, where she rejects the help of a man or shows she doesn't need the help of a man, so to will she have to continue that trend. Anything else will be a step backwards- it will be disempowering the icon. Turning her dark is outright declaring she's weak, fearful or evil and that is simply not going to happen. Nor do I think it should. I would say more likely she's going to do something like master both sides.

 Kojiro wrote:
I would say more likely she's going to do something like master both sides.

But- But- I want a Revan movie!

 Kojiro wrote:

That's 7 movies (not including this one), 20 assorted books, 9 comics, 1 video game and 2 TV series (currently at 8+ seasons). Most franchises get far less.
It's also worth noting that while the EU may no longer be canon, I doubt all of it will stay that way. Much of it doesn't contradict the established canon and may well appear in upcoming works. I wouldn't call it unequivocally false is all I'm saying.

None of which shows that lots and lots of training is needed for force usage.

Well did that happen or not? And if it did, then we've got to explain why it's no longer a requirement now.

The point is that the story of Luke later one shows that lots and lots of training isn't needed.

Advisable etc etc one would suggest but then again look what happened to them ?

And is summarily beaten to a pulp. Yoda explicitly says his training isn't complete- it should be no surprise he lacks skills.

So what ?

Still has the skills, and even manages to get his force telepathy to work , having had 1 vision when on Dagoba.

And gets it to work, quite literally, single handed after having had quite a bad day.

Actually he's a Knight, a lower, common rank for anyone who completes Jedi training. I will grant you that 'Go kill Vader' is a crappy final exam. I can only assume

So in other words to become a jedi knight took a couple of days training, most of which was gymnastics ..?!?

There's considerable time between the movies. 3-4 years. There are bounty hunter engagements and Luke even faces (albeit briefly) Vader in that time. He also visits at least two Jedi temples and undergoes some training, again with the assistance of Kenobi's force ghost. I'm not actually familiar with those books/comics (or the EU for that matter) so I can't really say how thorough that training was, but from research does incline me to believe it's significantly shorter than previous Jedi, so I'm with you there. But it's not wholly absent either.

I assume you mean 3-4 years for all 3 films ? Note between each one ?

And as you say none of this is from the films or even referenced.

Him hanging around with dead Kenobi makes some of their conversations on ROTJ and Empire seem a bit ... well.. think those topics probably would have been raised before no ?

But there's also like 7 years in between those events. Given it's one of the few things Ben did show him, it stands to reason he'd practice it over the years. That said, we never saw him learn to force choke but he does that too.

I didn't think it was quite that long but fair enough.

So he practises then :

give you odds it took maybe 3 tries for him to get it right.

 Kojiro wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
@Kojiro: Didn't see your post before posting this, but yep, exactly. Rey has already trod the line between Light and Dark, and has no knowledge of which is which. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if by the end of this trilogy, Rey and Ren have swapped places, her falling and him being redeemed. Not saying I think that'll happen, but it could and it could work, I think.

Don't worry, this thread is hellish hard to keep up on. I've probably missed replies. But I am thoroughly enjoying the discussion as a way to pass my Xmas days off.

But they will never turn Rey dark. Especially given the reception she's received. People are so invested in her, she's becoming such an icon that anything that happens to her will be scrutinised. If for example she has a romantic subplot, it better be entirely on her terms or people will be upset. Just as in this film, where she rejects the help of a man or shows she doesn't need the help of a man, so to will she have to continue that trend. Anything else will be a step backwards- it will be disempowering the icon. Turning her dark is outright declaring she's weak, fearful or evil and that is simply not going to happen. Nor do I think it should. I would say more likely she's going to do something like master both sides.

See, that's not something I really get. I would have no problem with Rey failing and falling (possibly to be ultimately redeemed, possibly not), and I think the reception she's got would make all that more powerful. Anakin's fall didn't hurt as he wasn't engaging as a character, if Rey were to go down a similar route it would be an epic gut-punch of a plot twist simply because she's emerged as such a strong, likeable and engaging character. The emotional impact of her turning would be at once tragic, powerful and painful.

I don't see Rey as a feminist icon or anything like that, I see her as a great character in a great story, and I think that this is one possible route they could take her on and make it work. Again, I don't think it's the best choice they can make at the moment, but it could definitely work and be a good story. I'd be very surprised if they don't at least touch on the darker aspect of her nature, even if the story is of her overcoming that.

Two points, and I promise there's no rant

1) during that fight, there is a moment where Rey has the light-saber above her head for a good two three seconds, with her guard totally open. It struck me as unrealistic, as Ren could easily have had the time to lunge forward and get her in the chest with his light-saber.

2) I'm convinced the Knights of Ren is an anagram. Remember Doctor Who when Mister Saxon was an anagram for master number six or something?

I could be on to something

 Kojiro wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

The 4 major uses of the Force she displays are all in moments of heightened emotion (that ultimately lends power to The Force) and utter desperation (resisting Ren's probe, escaping the torture chamber, saving/avenging Finn, fighting back against Ren from the edge of defeat). Those factors combined make her display of power perfectly credible in my eyes, prior mind-wiped training or not.

People in this thread claim that Ren's heightened emotions contributed to his loss. Even though for a dark side user his emotions should be a source of power. In fact if Rey is drawing power/strength from emotion, she's drawing on the dark side.



Remember, when Ren accuses her of 'Still wanting to kill me' she doesn't deny it. She explains why. It's also the exact kind of mistake someone without training, knowing only legends, might make.

For a properly trained dark side user their emotions are a source of power. When their emotions are focussed, that is. Ren's emotions were not focussed, they were massively conflicted. This would have weakened his powers from both sides of the force.

Not all emotions lead to the dark side, that assumption was one of the big failings of the old Jedi council.

Fear and anger are the main emotions that lead to the dark side, due to the effect that they can have on your perception of events and so influence your actions.

Love, on the other hand, is frequently seen throughout the series as a redeemer. Vader is redeemed by his love for Luke, Revan is redeemed partially through his love for Bastila in KOTOR etc.


Also, this:

 reds8n wrote:
None of which shows that lots and lots of training is needed for force usage.

Well I suppose that depends how you define usage. Anakin is using the force on Tatooine to pod race (as I presume Rey does to fly the Falcon, but without the dialogue set up- in fact the opposite, she says she's never flown the Falcon). Technically speaking Luke and Yoda can both use Telekinesis at the start of Empire. But one struggles to pull a lightsaber a few feet while the other can drag a fighter out of the swamp. Luke's understanding of the force is simply equal to Yoda's. So I guess it depends on how you mean use.

But the canon is full of jedi that trained for years. Luke is the notable exception.

The point is that the story of Luke later one shows that lots and lots of training isn't needed.

I think the problem we're having here is where we feel the mind trick is on the ladder. You clearly believe it's on the first tier, I believe it's higher based on who (until Rey) we've seen do it. Perhaps it is a low level skill, but if so I'd expect Ashoka to have succeeded given how superlative a padawan she was. Check her out below- not bad for someone who never graduated to Knight.

Still has the skills, and even manages to get his force telepathy to work , having had 1 vision when on Dagoba.
And gets it to work, quite literally, single handed after having had quite a bad day.

To be fair, he calls out to his force sensitive twin. Granted he doesn't know that yet but the idea of force sensitive twins communicating is one of the easier things to swallow.

So in other words to become a jedi knight took a couple of days training, most of which was gymnastics ..?!?

I'm certainly not going to argue that Yoda did a rush/incomplete job, but we also likely didn't see everything. I personally don't think Luke ever shows anything on par with Anakin in the Clone Wars, which would both be Knights. It's inconsistent with what we previously know, unless Yoda used some super teaching force power or something. I'm not really interested in defending Luke's path- I concede it's generous to call it rushed.

And as you say none of this is from the films or even referenced.

You can check Luke's Wookieepedia page if you'd like the story and references. As I said, there's quite a few comics and books out there that remain canon, which is the relevant point.

Him hanging around with dead Kenobi makes some of their conversations on ROTJ and Empire seem a bit ... well.. think those topics probably would have been raised before no ?

That's a glitch in the storytelling. For example, when Luke is leaving to confront Vader- against both Obi-Wan and Yoda's advice, it's Obi-Wan who says 'That boy is our last hope.' and Yoda who says 'No, there is another.' By rights both were fully aware of Leia and the comment makes no sense, it's as if Yoda is telling Obi-Wan something he already knows.

I didn't think it was quite that long but fair enough. So he practises then : give you odds it took maybe 3 tries for him to get it right.

I may have messed up the time, but it's years. Apologies. Who knows how many tries it took? Maybe you're right. Of course maybe you're wrong. The real question is how could Rey mind trick Stormtrooper JB-007? Surely he's got a strong will?

The Jedi Mind trick is utter trash. I mean, come on. CinemaSins did really good "reviews" on the Star Wars series and they're right - it barely works. It only works on weak-minded individuals, not on animals and not against all races. It's successfully used...two? times. That's...not good.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
For a properly trained dark side user their emotions are a source of power. When their emotions are focussed.

Tell that to Vader after Luke let his anger out.

Ren's emotions were not focussed, they were massively conflicted. This would have weakened his powers from both sides of the force.

I'm not so sure. I think they were conflicted, until he killed Solo. Snoke outright says that's his test. He says he's been waiting for it. He knows what he has to do. He almost fails but then he passes. If anything he should be happy. He faced his final challenge and passed. Unsurprisingly Snoke then declares it's time to complete his training. He's interesting because he's not tempted towards the dark, he's tempted towards the light. It's an odd reversal because we're told by Yoda the dark side is quicker and easier. We have this idea that one falls towards the Dark, that one must constantly work to avoid falling. That a slip could cause you to fall, that it could be an accident. It gives the impression that the light side is comparatively difficult and must be worked towards.

Either interpretation is fair, perhaps the novelization has some insight as to what he was feeling.

Love, on the other hand, is frequently seen throughout the series as a redeemer. Vader is redeemed by his love for Luke, Revan is redeemed partially through his love for Bastila in KOTOR etc.

I'll give you Vader but Revan is in non canon Bioware territory. That storyline currently has him pretty dark, attempting to snuff out all life on a particular planet to kill another powerful force user. Or maybe he fell off the wagon, I don't know.

Also, this:

Lols.

So glad I went and saw this and enjoyed it without all this rigmarole. Seeing the falcon flying again burned the memory of the prequels straight out of my brain.

They did seem to cram allot into just over two hours so an extended cut must be on the cards.

Only a year and half till the follow up. Not sure what to do with myself for that long?

 Sigvatr wrote:
The Jedi Mind trick is utter trash. I mean, come on. CinemaSins did really good "reviews" on the Star Wars series and they're right - it barely works. It only works on weak-minded individuals, not on animals and not against all races. It's successfully used...two? times. That's...not good.

Wookiepedia has 26 canonical entries for it, though some are failures. Amusingly one of those failures is by Skywalker against a stormtrooper guard on an Imperial base and he has to resort to violence.

 Kojiro wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
For a properly trained dark side user their emotions are a source of power. When their emotions are focussed.

Tell that to Vader after Luke let his anger out.

Lukes anger is very much focussed on Vader at that point, due to Vaders threat of turning Leia. Just like Anakin's anger was focussed on the Tusken Raiders for killing his mother in attack of the clones.

Your emotion can be internally focussed on a single thing whilst still making your outward actions seem out of control.

Rens main source of anger is anger at himself for his perceived weakness and inability to live up to his grandfathers legacy. But by trying to live up to one side of his family (Vaders evil) he lets down the other side, leading to massive emotional conflicts. This makes focussing that anger on an outward entity, such as Rey or Han, difficult. Vader had the same kinds of emotional problems at the beginning of his fall, as a main source of his anger was his own inability to protect Padme, but he also had an outward source of anger in the form of the Jedi council who he felt were holding him back.

Ren was still conflicted after killing Han. If anything more conflicted than before as he wasn't able to do it straight away, not to mention the effect that Hans final act of love would have had on him. I don't think Snokes calling him back for training indicates that all conflict in Ren is gone or even lessened, but rather that with another force sensitive about it has become necessary for Ren to be trained further to counter this new threat. Being defeated by an untrained jedi could lead Ren to doubt the power of the dark side of the force as it couldn't give him victory. Snoke has to address that so that the next time Ren can emerge victorious and, in his own mind, cement the power of the dark side. To not do so risks losing his apprentice.

If Luke had returned on his own, Snokes would have recalled Ren for more training whether or not he had killed Han. To not do so means that Ren would not be able to defeat Luke (or Rey) and so Snoke loses a valuable asset.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:
So glad I went and saw this and enjoyed it without all this rigmarole. Seeing the falcon flying again burned the memory of the prequels straight out of my brain.

They did seem to cram allot into just over two hours so an extended cut must be on the cards.

Only a year and half till the follow up. Not sure what to do with myself for that long?

I'm leaning towards cryostasis

 notprop wrote:

They did seem to cram allot into just over two hours so an extended cut must be on the cards.

I'd absolutely buy and watch an extended edition of this. There were a fair few shots/lines in the 2-dozen-plus trailers that didn't end up in the film, so I expect the material is there.

Only a year and half till the follow up. Not sure what to do with myself for that long?

Just the 1 year until Rogue One, which should be equally excellent...

 Peregrine wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
EDIT: Also, saying Rey did not succeed the first time she did the mind trick does not at all address the issue of how on earth she would know how to do it or how she would even know about it in the first place.

Maybe it's just so easy that every jedi figures out how to do it (and defend against it) within a few minutes of starting their training. The argument that Rey shouldn't have been able to use the jedi mind trick is based on a completely unsupported assumption that it's actually difficult to do. Take that assumption away and it's a lot harder to object to her using it successfully.

Except that it's an equally unsupported assumption that this is some sort of basic trick that every Jedi can do. If that really is the explanation, this movie, nor any of the ones that came before it, have given any indication that the mind trick is a beginner's move. Even if that were the case, it still doesn't explain how she knew about it in the first place, and I just can't bring myself to believe that any Force powers can be learned without instruction. There is no precedent that novice Jedi learn skills spontaneously, which is why Rey's sudden abilities grate on so many people.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
EDIT: Also, saying Rey did not succeed the first time she did the mind trick does not at all address the issue of how on earth she would know how to do it or how she would even know about it in the first place.

Maybe it's just so easy that every jedi figures out how to do it (and defend against it) within a few minutes of starting their training. The argument that Rey shouldn't have been able to use the jedi mind trick is based on a completely unsupported assumption that it's actually difficult to do. Take that assumption away and it's a lot harder to object to her using it successfully.

Except that it's an equally unsupported assumption that this is some sort of basic trick that every Jedi can do. If that really is the explanation, this movie, nor any of the ones that came before it, have given any indication that the mind trick is a beginner's move. Even if that were the case, it still doesn't explain how she knew about it in the first place, and I just can't bring myself to believe that any Force powers can be learned without instruction. There is no precedent that novice Jedi learn skills spontaneously, which is why Rey's sudden abilities grate on so many people.

Except jedi do learn some of their skills subconsciously, such as their increased reflexes (often manifested in flying ability) and visions through the force. Anakin, for example was able to identify the images on Mace Windus screen in Phantom Menace with zero training. As for how she knew about it, I think the "jedi can influence your mind" story would be quite commonly known. I'm pretty sure the Emperor would have played up that ability in the aftermath of the Clone Wars as it gave credence to his claim that the Jedi were plotting to overthrow the senate. Having them be capable of influencing your very thoughts would make people very scared of them, akin to the fear of psykers and their abilities to control your mind in 40K.

For all we know Rey may have been subconsciously using the jedi mind trick on people throughout her life. A possible example of this could be in the scene where she is trading her supplies for rations. She gets much less for all of her supplies than she did on a previous occasion. We all assumed it was price gouging but maybe what really happened is that on that previous occasion she subconsciously manipulated the merchant with the force in order to give her more rations.

Guessing imagines on a screen and using a jedi mind trick are orders of magnitude apart. You're right, for all we know Rey very well may have been subconsciously using the mind trick throughout her life, but the movie doesn't show that. At all. The fact that people have to search for these explanations and rationalize them in their head for others really illustrates how terribly this movie was put together.

I went to see it a second time, enjoyed it and it let me pick up on a few smaller details I'd missed in the initial viewing. I think Kylo Ren grew on me a fair amount as a result. I thought he was a bit flat at first and his character made a lot more sense on the rewatch.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned here about the light saber duel, Kylo Ren was not out to kill Rei. Snoke ordered him to capture her and bring her to him so the battle wouldn't be full bore trying to take her head. If you are trying to take somebody alive while using something as a deadly as a light saber there's a lot of restraint that needs to be used so you don't end up killing them on accident.

I'm sure that there's time in the original movies where Vader could have greatly outmatched Luke and killed him immediately had he really wanted to, but Vader wanted Luke alive so he could be given to the Emperor and turned to the dark side. The fight isn't really about the sword play at all it's about the mental duel and attempt to defeat the other person's resolve and connection to the force. It happens with Obi-Wan, it happens with Luke and it repeats with Rei.

Kylo enters the lightsaber battle wounded and with the intent of turning her rather than killing her so he would be fighting at a less lethal level than if he were outright trying to kill her.

Despite the difficulty of his wound he's certainly controlling the battle and overpowering Rei for the majority of the fight scene, indicating he's a stronger swordsman and holds that advantage until he pauses and tries to turn her. Initially Rei is running and dodging as her focus is only on the physical element where she's completely outmatched, it's only when she's confronted with the true nature of the fight (the force) that she realizes there is a larger element at play. She clearly struggles for a moment with that realization but then focuses and it draws strength into her at which point she reverses the the fight.

Reflections of this also occurs earlier in the film where's she's being questioned in the torture room, at first she's simply resisting giving out the map information and is losing that mental/force battle but she realizes that it's not simply about the map and manages to push back flipping the table on Kyo Ren and going into his mind to read his fears about not being Vader.

On the surface lightsaber duels appear to be straightforward physical combat, but it's the manifestation of the invisible force battle and clash of will. It's a mystic battle and the physical elements become very secondary, which is why Jedi/Sith can walk unharmed through torrents of blaster fire as the weak wills of the untrained and unfocused are not a threat to them. It's only the rare strong willed individuals that they need concern themselves with.


It also might explain Kylo Ren's mild interest in Fin at the opening, most stormtroopers are weak minded as shown by the force suggestion tricks and Fin sticks out as having a will of his own which would have been a mild curiosity that Ren didn't have time to explore before he escaped.


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Once again, I still think the movie had the look and feel of a Star Wars movie, despite the irony that it should, as it is basically A New Hope. But the cinematography is definitely there.

It's Starkiller Base that I cannot get past: the main housing section of the Starkiller's main gun- and the trench itself, is nearly the width of the effing first Death Star's diameter.. This was built by an Imperial Remnant, and noone in the New Republic was concerned? It's not hard to find by the movie's standards- Leia gets regular intel on it's operational readiness during the briefing. Evidently she's got better scouts than all those Bothans, lol.

 paulson games wrote:

Reflections of this also occurs earlier in the film where's she's being questioned in the torture room, at first she's simply resisting giving out the map information and is losing that mental/force battle but she realizes that it's not simply the map and manages to push back flipping the table on Kyo Ren and going into his mind to read his fears about not being Vader.

Yeah. The mind probe scene was reminiscent of Snape and Harrys mind training in the Half Blood Prince where Harry manages to reverse Snapes spell and read his mind instead, which he does completely by accident.

Now, that doesn't mean that Harry is better at mind reading than Snape, or better at defending himself from mind reading spells but rather that Snape was caught off guard by Harry performing an ability which he had not thought Harry capable of at that time.

The same happens when Ren is interrogating Rey. He doesn't expect her to be able to resist to the point that she does and definitely doesn't expect her to reverse the connection and so his own mental defences were not prepared. Rey has no idea how she did it but she knows that she can. This provides the basis for her experimenting with intentionally imposing her will on the stormtrooper as it lets her know that the force can allow you to enter someones mind.

And if you can enter, maybe you can influence...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Once again, I still think the movie had the look and feel of a Star Wars movie, despite the irony that it should, as it is basically A New Hope. But the cinematography is definitely there.

It's Starkiller Base that I cannot get past: the main section of the Starkiller's main gun- and the trench itself, is nearly the width of the effing first Death Star's diameter.. This was built by an Imperial Remnant, and noone in the New Republic was concerned? It's not hard to find by the movie's standards- Leia gets regular intel on it's operational readiness during the briefing. Evidently she's got better scouts than all those Bothans, lol.

Spoiler:

Maybe the first order had it covered with a big tarpaulin until it was finished and so the republic thought they were just making a big supermarket or something?

I don't think it would satisfy the naysayers, but there is a line from the trailer which I think is key to Rey's story.

"The force is calling to you. Let it in."

This is Maz presumably talking to Rey. It didn't make the final cut, but it would have bolstered the view that the "force" is strongly drawn to Rey in some manner.

She must be positively crawling with midichlorians

 paulson games wrote:
it's about the metal duel

Word

 Ahtman wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
it's about the metal duel

Word

Our eardrums can't repel riffage of that magnitude!