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Lol nice catch and that video clip is great.


(runs back to edit yet again)

Keep in mind people that, while Rei technically defeated Kylo Ren in the duel, it wasn't all that impressive.

Ren was already seriously injured and tired out from fighting Finn. And he was suffering internal conflict from killing his father(the same reason Luke was able to defeat Vader on the bridge of the Death Star. Vader was too internally conflicted to beat Luke who had absolute purity of conviction)

So really Rei beat a wanna-be sith who was injured, unskilled, and suffering an emotional breakdown.

Rey had just regained conscious after being knocked the feth out, dunno about you, but after I pass out Im usually a bit fuzzy.

She did just see her friend get his butt kicked, and she is a force sensitive. Fast recovery isn't out of the realm of possibility. That would be some ability that activates without much training.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Keep in mind people that, while Rei technically defeated Kylo Ren in the duel, it wasn't all that impressive.

Ren was already seriously injured and tired out from fighting Finn. And he was suffering internal conflict from killing his father(the same reason Luke was able to defeat Vader on the bridge of the Death Star. Vader was too internally conflicted to beat Luke who had absolute purity of conviction)

So really Rei beat a wanna-be sith who was injured, unskilled, and suffering an emotional breakdown.

Internal conflict from killing his father? He didn't care.

That whole emotional scene was an act and he didn't care. Chances are the bowcaster shot to the chest did more damage than killing han solo ever would.

Rewatch it. He is clearly struggling with what he did afterwards. The bad pacing of the movie could make it tough to see if you aren't looking for it.

I will give Rei lovers some credit though. At least their character is decent enough even if too powerful for the first movie.

You couldn't get much worse than boba fett who only looks cool and has a cool jetpack and gets all these other fan stories just because he looked cool. He is the most inept bad guy of all time in 'RotJ'. His one big moment could be summed up with 'tripping over banana peel' sound effects. Also I don't care how cool he is in the expanded lore (not that it'd matter as Disney made it dead and probably ****ed off all the fanboys) mostly because in the movie which is canon and where he was shown he was just pathetic. Being cool is more than about barely talking, looking cool and having a jetpack but those teen dramas make so much sense now on the topic of cool guys (though I might watch if the cool guy had a jetpack). People need to learn if you can't do something and just look awesome and brag instead it turns you into more of a d-bag.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Keep in mind people that, while Rei technically defeated Kylo Ren in the duel, it wasn't all that impressive.

Ren was already seriously injured and tired out from fighting Finn. And he was suffering internal conflict from killing his father(the same reason Luke was able to defeat Vader on the bridge of the Death Star. Vader was too internally conflicted to beat Luke who had absolute purity of conviction)

So really Rei beat a wanna-be sith who was injured, unskilled, and suffering an emotional breakdown.

Internal conflict from killing his father? He didn't care.

That whole emotional scene was an act and he didn't care. Chances are the bowcaster shot to the chest did more damage than killing han solo ever would.

I don't really get the whole "He didn't care" bit.

If he didn't care then as soon as that lightsaber ignited he'd be throwing Han off into the pit and striding off to find the others. If he didn't care, then why did he wait until Han was holding the saber? He could have killed him as soon as Han got up to him on the bridge.

Ren cares. He cares very much, though tries to hide it.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Keep in mind people that, while Rei technically defeated Kylo Ren in the duel, it wasn't all that impressive.

Ren was already seriously injured and tired out from fighting Finn. And he was suffering internal conflict from killing his father(the same reason Luke was able to defeat Vader on the bridge of the Death Star. Vader was too internally conflicted to beat Luke who had absolute purity of conviction)

So really Rei beat a wanna-be sith who was injured, unskilled, and suffering an emotional breakdown.

Internal conflict from killing his father? He didn't care.

That whole emotional scene was an act and he didn't care. Chances are the bowcaster shot to the chest did more damage than killing han solo ever would.

I don't really get the whole "He didn't care" bit.

If he didn't care then as soon as that lightsaber ignited he'd be throwing Han off into the pit and striding off to find the others. If he didn't care, then why did he wait until Han was holding the saber? He could have killed him as soon as Han got up to him on the bridge.

Ren cares. He cares very much, though tries to hide it.

He was trying to fake Han out. Also there's a good chance it was done for effect for the audience. If he killed Han immediately it wouldn't have the same effect as the talk did. Besides you mean toying with emotions to reel han solo in didn't bring him more joy. Chances are a sith enjoys toying with the emotions of others before crushing them. He was probably trying to show his master (Snoke) he was worthy of him and for the training. Remember he looks up to darth vader more than to han solo. Even when Rei read his mind she found out his big issue was not living up to Darth Vader rather than being unsure if he was doing the right thing.

I also see reflections of young spoiled Anakin in Ren, strong on the rage and fighting skill but currently untested against any "real" opponents. He's used to getting things his way uncontested so when he ran into opposition from Fin, Han, Rei that had him a bit off center.

When he's questioning Rei he doesn't expect resistance, she gets in his head and he leaves so he can shed his emo tears and come back with re-established composure. He's also caught weepy eyed talking with Snoke. Like Anakin he's spoiled and believes he's a unique and snowflake because he has some extra innate strength, but he's weak in his training and ability to control it. This is also likely fostered by Snoke as it lets him be controlled and manipulated more easily, just like what Palpatine did with Anakin. The dark side is greedy and they don't give their students power as they know it will be turned against the master as soon as they feel they can use it.

I think that Ren shows considerable physical talent in the battle, but hes trying to take her alive, a bit unhinged and not used to fighting with people that offer up an actual measure of resistance. When he sees Rei awaken with the force as he tries to turn her he's completely shocked and taken aback as he hasn't ever faced anyone else equally as strong in the force. (if not stronger)


In the next movie I suspect that we'll see that she'd received some aspect of training in her youth and was hidden on Jakku much like Luke was hidden on Tattonie (or Leia's secret adoption) She's likely Kylo Ren's twin or she's Luke daughter which would explain her raw force talent and the fact that Han certainly knows who she is even if he doesn't let on. Maz senses that Han knows and asks him "who's the girl?" the answer to which is of course cut short with the scene leading to Rei finding the lightsaber.

She also didn't react with any sort of shock or wonderment when Han is talking about the force or the Jedi on board the falcon, when he says "it's true all of it" Fin's jaw drops but there's really no change in Rei's expression and it's as though she knows firsthand. Maz also tells her that the person she is looking for is not back on Jakku but forwards (which is likely Luke)

Han took to her immediately offering to bring her on as crew etc so there certainly is a connection, Kylo Ren brings up Han being a father figure in which she'd be greatly disappointed in.

One of my friends also noted that when Rei leaves at the end Leia holds onto her just a bit too long in a protective parent sort of way, it's very subtle but it's certainly a lingering embrace that's longer than a simple good bye. Not quite sure if she's the Daughter of Han & Leia where they are hiding it to prevent Ren from knowing, or if she's Luke's daughter, but clearly she's related to the family but it's not been revealed just yet.

So in short I think we'll see that she'd had at least some minimal training in the past as it's been largely suppressed and buried down inside due to her feelings of abandonment on Jakku. Despite her obvious talents and abilities she struggles in the movie to accept the notion that's she's better than she believes, because of her past she feels insignificant and alone etc. Hence the "awakens" part of the title, she finally accepted that truth during that crucial moment of the lightsaber battle and it allowed her to push through the memories of her past and opened herself up to the force talents which she has known all along but refused to believe in.

Luke and Rei in some respects are opposites in how they start off, Luke wants to believe but doubts and questions Yoda and Ben at every turn which is why he stumbles in his training. Meanwhile Rei seems to already be at one with her attunement but trying to suppress and deny it. Luke begins much weaker, building and growing as he learns, meanwhile Rei is strong however she doesn't want to acknowledge that she is strong. She rationalizes that if she is truly special she wouldn't have been left behind and abandoned. A flawed understanding because it was from the mind of a child, but it's what she has conditioned herself to believe. Had she actually been weak her life on Jakku would have done her in long ago.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


He was trying to fake Han out. Also there's a good chance it was done for effect for the audience. If he killed Han immediately it wouldn't have the same effect as the talk did. Besides you mean toying with emotions to reel han solo in didn't bring him more joy. Chances are a sith enjoys toying with the emotions of others before crushing them. He was probably trying to show his master (Snoke) he was worthy of him and for the training. Remember he looks up to darth vader more than to han solo. Even when Rei read his mind she found out his big issue was not living up to Darth Vader rather than being unsure if he was doing the right thing.

We never once in the film saw Ren enjoying any of what he did. He showed no enjoyment when causing pain to Rey when he was interrogating her. Neither did we see any flash or even glimmer of enjoyment or exultation when he killed Han.

His fear of not living up to Darth Vader stems directly from his conflicted nature, the "lure of the light".

The best part of the movie was that it let go of all the bs baggage that goes along with the cult of Star Wars and just let the story breathe. The whole having to go to a literal training at two years old to use the force, or that light saber fights are hyper choreographed dance offs instead of people awkwardly bashing each other with laser swords like they were before is all stuff we've taken on from the prequels. Further, we've actually complained for years about how these elements confuse the narrative of the originals. Why the feth are people all of a sudden arguing FOR them?

I mean, do these things actually make Star Wars better or are they just nice to read on a wookiepedia page?

Let's look at it this way. Why does it bother you that the hero of an action adventure movie was able to defeat the villain in a sword fight despite being less experienced? Let the baggage go and think about it. No one minds when the hobbits picked up swords and killed a thousand goblins in Moria. This stuff happens in movies.

My issue with Rei that I don't have with Luke is also that Luke is where a person can insert themselves. Yes you suck now luke but one day you'll be awesome and he did become awesome in the 3rd movie when he was saving everybody from Jabba when they all got captured.

My issue with Rei is she was made awesome in one movie and did most of what luke did by the 3rd movie in his trilogy all in her first movie of her trilogy. Where's the build up when you're taking down the 2nd strongest baddie by the first movie despite all your claims she made Ren look bad.

Hard to say whose daughter she is. I assumed luke's but it's also possible that it's han and leia's. I'm guessing the longer hugging scene could be because leia's husband was killed by their son and seems to have fallen to the dark side totally. Not to mention her suggestion of bringing him back possibly brought about her husband's death. She's probably really sad how those events turned out and feels responsible. At this point Rei's probably the closest person she has to herself currently with Luke being semi-MIA (the did find him at the end of the movie).

@Las: I actually hated 'The Hobbit' trilogy because I read the book. It never should've been 3 movies and making it 3 was a choice to make more money and show more. There wasn't enough content. The first movie tried to be too much like the book (including the songs nobody cared to hear except on a special edition) until they had dwarves running and killing infinite baddies in more and more ridiculous and absurd ways. Smaug turning into a doofus when confronted with the dwarves was the worst thing ever. Even the whole black arrow thing that could've been changed for the better by being shot by an eff'ing bolt thrower was shot with a makeshift bow to kill smaug at the very first 5 minutes of the 3rd movie. Considering all the action is put into the 3rd Hobbit movie I don't even feel the need to watch the other two for the massively slow build-up. I will say the battle of 5 armies wasn't so bad of a change though but if I remember the elves were never in 'The Hobbit' (esp. not stupid legolas) and if they were it was only at the very end. If I remember it was the humans vs. the dwarfs and then goblins and finally some eagles helped out but Bilbo was passed out for most of it. I don't mind that the battle got super crazy as I'd rather see a battle than hear our big hero got knocked out and was told super awesome things they never got to see or experience.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

He was trying to fake Han out. Also there's a good chance it was done for effect for the audience. If he killed Han immediately it wouldn't have the same effect as the talk did. Besides you mean toying with emotions to reel han solo in didn't bring him more joy. Chances are a sith enjoys toying with the emotions of others before crushing them. He was probably trying to show his master (Snoke) he was worthy of him and for the training. Remember he looks up to darth vader more than to han solo. Even when Rei read his mind she found out his big issue was not living up to Darth Vader rather than being unsure if he was doing the right thing.

Killing Han immediately would not have had the same impact. The discussion on the bridge was a pretty interesting way to depict the duality in which the force is understood. The conversation had two entirely different meanings depending on which side you viewed it from. From Han's perspective he saw Ren's asking for "help" as helping him return to the light to reunite with his family and return to what's good. From Ren's point of view "help" was gaining the strength and resolve to kill Han to further his devotion to the dark side. I don't think we could have had that type of statement had he just suddenly cut Han down in cold blood. IMO it was a pretty interesting scene.


The lighting also mirrors the mood amazingly. As the sun is fading the beam of light contracts onto Han as the only source of light in the space that's dominated by Ren's darkness alluding to Han being the last remaining portion of light within Ren. The light continues to fade as Ren becomes more focused and prepared to kill Han and fades entirely to darkness as he ignites the lightsaber. At that point his convergence to the dark side is absolute and the room is completely dark.

This is further mirrored in the earlier quote from the x-wing squad about the sun draining and starkiller charging, "so long as there's light there's still hope". That light and hope is now completely extinguished in Ren.

That's what I just said. I said the talk made things more interesting.

Personally I'm pretty sure Ren knew what he meant and what his father thought he meant. Ren's been on both sides of the fence so he knows the thoughts of both. If anything that dialogue choice was a trap for Han.

I do feel the way they made that scene was pretty powerful though. It was made in a similar way to the way people turn people to the light side except it was his moment of ensuring his descent to the dark (at least for now).

@Las: Part of the reason why it bothers me is the fact the story's hero did so by the first movie. It's totally unlike luke who takes down darth vader by the 3rd. Yes Darth Vader is more potent but luke had training in the 2nd movie and the best he could get is grazing darth's shoulder. The whole fight he was stumbling over his own feet and darth was in control. If this was the new movies Rei would've probably cut Darth down by the first movie. Luke needed training to jedi mind trick people and even after seeing it could only do it by the 3rd movie against a criminal henchman. Rei does it against a stormtrooper (not sure if indoctrination helps or hurts) without knowing that ability is a thing or that she's a legit jedi. She resists against being mind read by Ren and reads some of his mind in the process. If you're going to make Rei awesome make it take some mother ****ing time. Learning everything overnight and beating the 2nd top villain of the series by the first movie is not taking time making her a powerful character and not how it should be. If I said I became the president of the U.S.A. overnight and was the 2nd bestest ever at it after 3 days then not only would that be unexpected it'd be considered complete bull crap. I feel the same way with Rei.

Am I the only one who got the feeling that Han knew what was going to happen? And I say that as a question, I'm not trying to convince anyone. It's interesting to me that I totally got the impression that he knew Ren wasn't coming back very early on in the conversation and that he was going to die. I really got the feeling that was like his last gift to whatever was left of his son in a defeated kind of way.

The lightsaber duel was a lot more subtle than it's being given credit for - it was essentially broadsword vs shinai/dao. re-watch it and pay careful attention to kylo ren's movements; they're all well timed and he has rey on the backfoot and retreating until she remembers to 'let the force in' whereupon she becomes strong enough to overpower and deflect kylo ren's heavy swings. (technically there should be no difference, but a difference was portrayed)
I was quite amused to see that, rather than just slashing him atwain asap, rey pokes him with the tip for a bit until that chasam separates them.
If the books are source material for the disney writers, and jj abrahms' assertion that kylo ren was based on jacen solo; i think it's a good shout that rey is based on jaina solo.
It's a good story arc to go down, i recon. Lots of tragedy - it's a bit darker than the original trilogy and i like it.

 Las wrote:
Am I the only one who got the feeling that Han knew what was going to happen? And I say that as a question, I'm not trying to convince anyone. It's interesting to me that I totally got the impression that he knew Ren wasn't coming back very early on in the conversation and that he was going to die. I really got the feeling that was like his last gift to whatever was left of his son in a defeated kind of way.

It's very possible. Perhaps he wanted what his child wanted. Maybe he wanted to give his son the chance to be good anyway. I'm not a parent but if it came down to it I'd probably let my child kill me rather than kill them. It's a parent's burden. You have to love them even if they turn into the equivalent of hitler.

I think he'd accepted that Ren was lost a long time ago and it was to honor Leia's request. At the point the explosives were armed he could have just left but he waivers for a second and heads for the bridge instead. I didn't get the impression that he was intentionally walking into his own death but there was a vibe of trying one last ditch effort at what he already knew was a lost cause, A hope against hope type of situation that Ren would return with him.

I think rationally he knew. Emotionally though? He hoped he was wrong.

@flamingkillamajig

Yea the hobbit films suck. But I'm talking about how characters in fun action movies with swords tend to do ok when using them, despite being less experienced. My example is a reference to Fellowship.

 Las wrote:
@flamingkillamajig

Yea the hobbit films suck. But I'm talking about how characters in fun action movies with swords tend to do ok when using them, despite being less experienced. My example is a reference to Fellowship.

Did they kill or otherwise beat the 2nd top baddie with nearly no experience by the first film? If no then understand my issue seeing Rei do this. If Luke did it I wouldn't have issue since he's far more experienced and took more time gaining that skill and experience. I mean even if Kylo Ren backstabbed luke when his back was turned in the first or second movie I'd understand (not to mention it's considered evil and cowardly as we'd expect from a bad guy) as Rei needs to eventually overcome this foe and could learn by luke's spirit ghost. Of course who then would teach Rei?

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Las wrote:
@flamingkillamajig

Yea the hobbit films suck. But I'm talking about how characters in fun action movies with swords tend to do ok when using them, despite being less experienced. My example is a reference to Fellowship.

Did they kill or otherwise beat the 2nd top baddie with nearly no experience by the first film? If no then understand my issue seeing Rei do this. If Luke did it I wouldn't have issue since he's far more experienced and took more time gaining that skill and experience. I mean even if Kylo Ren backstabbed luke when his back was turned in the first or second movie I'd understand as Rei needs to eventually overcome this foe and could learn by luke's spirit ghost. Of course who then would teach Rei?

They killed scores of monsters who live only to fight and kill despite never using a sword before, and you know what? That was okay, because it's a fun action adventure movie and that's appropriate.

Same thing in Force Awakens. The hero wish fulfillment character with few flaws (like Luke, Han, John Mclane, whatever) beat the antagonist at a sword fight.

 Las wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Las wrote:
@flamingkillamajig

Yea the hobbit films suck. But I'm talking about how characters in fun action movies with swords tend to do ok when using them, despite being less experienced. My example is a reference to Fellowship.

Did they kill or otherwise beat the 2nd top baddie with nearly no experience by the first film? If no then understand my issue seeing Rei do this. If Luke did it I wouldn't have issue since he's far more experienced and took more time gaining that skill and experience. I mean even if Kylo Ren backstabbed luke when his back was turned in the first or second movie I'd understand as Rei needs to eventually overcome this foe and could learn by luke's spirit ghost. Of course who then would teach Rei?

They killed scores of monsters who live only to fight and kill despite never using a sword before, and you know what? That was okay, because it's a fun action adventure movie and that's appropriate.

Same thing in Force Awakens. The hero wish fulfillment character with few flaws (like Luke, Han, John Mclane, whatever) beat the antagonist at a sword fight.

John Mcclane is probably the biggest offender admittedly. Isn't he like just a cop? Even the last die hards just took it to new ridiculous lengths (mostly the 2nd last one). I did take issue to him and his son having convenient things to fall onto when jumping out of weird places. Did they intentionally jump onto the building's scaffolding or into the pool or did they just end up their luckily?

I suppose it's not so much the movie or movies being bad but what we expect from the series up to this point. The 'Star Wars' franchise has a ridiculous degree to live up to and finding a balance between the hardcore fans/nerds and the average moviegoer is hard if not impossible. Compare that to things like 'Warhammer fantasy' that GW just threw out the window and managed to **** off about every warhammer fantasy fan and managed to only gain painters and 40k players. Would you believe some AoS players actually bait the previous fantasy players at the current GW?

I suppose that's moving off topic though so whatever.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Las wrote:
@flamingkillamajig

Yea the hobbit films suck. But I'm talking about how characters in fun action movies with swords tend to do ok when using them, despite being less experienced. My example is a reference to Fellowship.

Did they kill or otherwise beat the 2nd top baddie with nearly no experience by the first film? If no then understand my issue seeing Rei do this. If Luke did it I wouldn't have issue since he's far more experienced and took more time gaining that skill and experience. I mean even if Kylo Ren backstabbed luke when his back was turned in the first or second movie I'd understand (not to mention it's considered evil and cowardly as we'd expect from a bad guy) as Rei needs to eventually overcome this foe and could learn by luke's spirit ghost. Of course who then would teach Rei?

Erm.. Not to be a downer but he was trained by luke who barely had any experience in using a lightsaber. So no I do not think that is too hard to believe especially when In the same universe a nine year old destroyed an entire fleet ship, a nine year old also beat a bunch of skilled pilots in pod racing. An idiot gave the galaxy power to a sithlord. An idiot was made a senator, and before that a general. A bunch of jedi were pushovers. Apparently a teenager could also take on a sithlord with barely any training. A single gungan could defeat a bunch of tanks and is largely believed to be the sithlord

A key difference between Luke and Rei is that Rei doesn't do much outside of figure out how some Jedi stuff works. Meanwhile Luke rescues the driods and Leia, is a droid mechanic, becomes a fledgling jedi, top ace fighter pilot, AND blows up the death star all in the span of one movie.

Rei pilots the falcon but she hardly becomes a seasoned pilot let alone top ace, all Rei does is pilot the falcon against TWO tie fighters while Fin does all the shooting. Luke shoots downs several tie fighters in the falcon, plenty more in his xwing, survives the trench run and blows up the death star.

Rei gets loose from the torture room and hides about the starkiller but needs the team to come get her out. In the forest and on the star killer she doesn't even do much fighting, where Luke is involved in multiple shoot outs with scores of stormtroopers. It's Fin, Han, and Chewie that are the ones doing the bulk of the fighting and who get the explosives in place to take down the star killer's shields, then the xwing pilots that finish it off so in TFA the contributions by the other heroes are spread around a lot more. In the first movie that all would have been Luke jobs.

Rei of course gets the nerdrage because she has lots of screen time and her force abilities progressed rapidly, although actually she contributes far less to the story when compared to all the major points that Luke carries in the first film. I think people are looking for any possible reason to rage on her character while ignoring/forgetting how rapidly Luke progressed with the multiple talents he was exceptional at within the opening film.

Basically we have Rei take on one lone enemy over the course of the movie, where Luke was the "I do it all man" in every situation and yet somehow Rei is considered to be too perfect of a hero? That reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense to me. She has quite a few abilities but certainly nothing I'd consider any worse than what Luke demonstrated.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Las wrote:
@flamingkillamajig

Yea the hobbit films suck. But I'm talking about how characters in fun action movies with swords tend to do ok when using them, despite being less experienced. My example is a reference to Fellowship.

Did they kill or otherwise beat the 2nd top baddie with nearly no experience by the first film? If no then understand my issue seeing Rei do this. If Luke did it I wouldn't have issue since he's far more experienced and took more time gaining that skill and experience. I mean even if Kylo Ren backstabbed luke when his back was turned in the first or second movie I'd understand (not to mention it's considered evil and cowardly as we'd expect from a bad guy) as Rei needs to eventually overcome this foe and could learn by luke's spirit ghost. Of course who then would teach Rei?

Erm.. Not to be a downer but he was trained by luke who barely had any experience in using a lightsaber. So no I do not think that is too hard to believe especially when In the same universe a nine year old destroyed an entire fleet ship, a nine year old also beat a bunch of skilled pilots in pod racing. An idiot gave the galaxy power to a sithlord. An idiot was made a senator, and before that a general. A bunch of jedi were pushovers. Apparently a teenager could also take on a sithlord with barely any training. A single gungan could defeat a bunch of tanks and is largely believed to be the sithlord

Nobody likes the prequels and wish they could forget them. I'm trying to hold this movie above those and I had problems with the prequels myself.

@paulson games: Uh no han solo shoots a bunch of stormtroopers and even manages to chase a bunch down, shoots darth vader's death squad out of the sky and constant acts of bad***ery. r2-d2 manages to unlock doors and other such stuff. Obi wan Kenobi distracts a bunch of stormtroopers (resulting in his own death) so that the gang can escape the death star which should matter infinitely more to luke (than han solo to rei) considering obi wan saved his life at least once in the desert, once from the stormtroopers at the checkpoint, once in the bar and in general just to escape the death star (after just losing his family Luke looked to him as a parent figure after being thrust into harrowing situations that probably freaked him out being a farm boy).

Sure luke got some nice moments but he was out-shined by han solo in most cases and in most cases han solo was like an older brother to him. In fact han solo felt exactly like an older brother to luke. The one big thing luke did was blow up the death star and while huge he had obi wan's and han solo's help.

I mean on the subject of han solo he does what again? He shoots vader's crew out of the sky, scares a bunch of stormtroopers and fights them, flies through asteroid fields like a madman, hides from imperial fleets by landing at the back of one like a fly on someone's head and in general just saves luke quite a few times. In fact I almost wonder how much everybody's 'save luke' counter is tallied at.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Keep in mind people that, while Rei technically defeated Kylo Ren in the duel, it wasn't all that impressive.

Ren was already seriously injured and tired out from fighting Finn. And he was suffering internal conflict from killing his father(the same reason Luke was able to defeat Vader on the bridge of the Death Star. Vader was too internally conflicted to beat Luke who had absolute purity of conviction)

So really Rei beat a wanna-be sith who was injured, unskilled, and suffering an emotional breakdown.

And who wasn't actively trying to kill her.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Bobby Fischer had a whole host of issues to go along with his chess brilliance, Poe on the other hand... well hes handsome and dreamy and charming and witty and and and... damn.

If being played by a good-looking actor is the issue, then half the characters ever to appear on screen should be labelled Mary Sues. Probably a lot more for protagonists (can you even remember the last time you saw an ugly female protagonist?). I agree that it is unrealistic, but it seems to be the nature of the industry (or possibly the medium).

A rebel fighter ace and group commander is always going to be a great pilot by definition. I agree that his piloting skills are exceptional, even by alien and force user standards, which might be cause for criticism, but I don't think that makes him a Sue (not in the true sense. If I think about it, his abilities are probably more justifiable than most Star Wars characters. Especially when you consider that "use the force" is just another way of saying "use magic", which is the literary equivalent of "pull it out your ass". Poe's piloting abilities are foreshadowed quite a lot at the beginning of the film, then we get to see them, which is how it is supposed to be, and I thought it was pretty awesome.

 paulson games wrote:

Basically we have Rei take on one lone enemy over the course of the movie, where Luke was the "I do it all man" in every situation and yet somehow Rei is considered to be too perfect of a hero? That reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense to me. She has quite a few abilities but certainly nothing I'd consider any worse than what Luke demonstrated.

I think the difference is that, with Luke, there was some effort made to explain his abilities. For his pilot ability, we have his claims that "he's not a bad pilot himself" to Han, as well as a deleted scene in which Biggs claims that "He's the best bush-pilot in the outer rim". Sure, he might not be as good as he claims, but there is evidence that he has prior piloting ability. He then still gets in a couple tight spots during the battle of Yavin. In contrast, Rey explicitly has no piloting experience, yet manages to fly the Falcon through some fairly difficult maneuvers first try, without a copilot.

For Force training, Luke is tutored by Obi-Wan for a couple days. The only thing he does with the force for the rest of the movie is pull off an impossible shot at the movies climax. Then, after a five-year Time skip, his force ability is less than Rei's completely untrained, one-movie progress. It isn't until post-Dagobah that he gets close. That said, I have seen plenty of fan theories that would make all Rei's abilities seem reasonable.

Of course, still enjoyed the movie, and on sheer acting chops alone Rei keeps well clear of my list of really bad Star Wars Characters.