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 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 paulson games wrote:

Basically we have Rei take on one lone enemy over the course of the movie, where Luke was the "I do it all man" in every situation and yet somehow Rei is considered to be too perfect of a hero? That reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense to me. She has quite a few abilities but certainly nothing I'd consider any worse than what Luke demonstrated.

I think the difference is that, with Luke, there was some effort made to explain his abilities. For his pilot ability, we have his claims that "he's not a bad pilot himself" to Han, as well as a deleted scene in which Biggs claims that "He's the best bush-pilot in the outer rim". Sure, he might not be as good as he claims, but there is evidence that he has prior piloting ability. He then still gets in a couple tight spots during the battle of Yavin. In contrast, Rey explicitly has no piloting experience, yet manages to fly the Falcon through some fairly difficult maneuvers first try, without a copilot.

For Force training, Luke is tutored by Obi-Wan for a couple days. The only thing he does with the force for the rest of the movie is pull off an impossible shot at the movies climax. Then, after a five-year Time skip, his force ability is less than Rei's completely untrained, one-movie progress. It isn't until post-Dagobah that he gets close. That said, I have seen plenty of fan theories that would make all Rei's abilities seem reasonable.

Of course, still enjoyed the movie, and on sheer acting chops alone Rei keeps well clear of my list of really bad Star Wars Characters.

Gotta keep in mind jar jar binks, anakin and padme are hard to be worse than. I'd imagine boba fett is on that bottom rung too but some would debate that.

-------

The movie was decent enough. It had good parts and bad parts. They're not the original trilogy but they're not the prequels either. Wish they didn't feel like throwing nostalgia in our face the way they did though. The wreckage of old battles scene was nice the introduction of r2-d2, han and chewie were not in the way they showed. r2-d2's was pretty bad. Someone would expect a tray of burnt out cigarette butts to be in his head tray in place of circuitry that used to be there. Would be funny considering his need in the previous movies.

They kinda had to mirror things in the first movie that just didn't need to be at times and felt cheap in ways. The whole pattern with this movie and 'a new hope' is so ridiculously similar in many ways.

Rey has explicitly no piloting experience of the Falcon (after all its garbage). She does say however say she is a pilot and is a fan of the ship that got exploded by the TIEs.

 Compel wrote:
Rey has explicitly no piloting experience of the Falcon (after all its garbage). She does say however say she is a pilot and is a fan of the ship that got exploded by the TIEs.

But she has worked on the falcon, as she states while talking to Han.

I think Rei had some experience flying. Not in combat or with the Falcon obviously, as evidenced by their terrible flying. They almost crash the falcon at least a dozen times, and it sustained a bit of damage.

For me, one of the high points of the film was the botched escape attempt using the Tie Fighter. It was pretty well written comedy with a bonus of seeing the inside of one.

That was definitely a good part of the movie. Stealing a ship to escape is a very star wars'y thing to do.

Minor point - why are some of you calling her Rei as opposed to Rey? Is her name spelt differently in the States?

 Ahtman wrote:

Spoiler:

Having seen the fight again Kylo really does smack Finn around in that lightsaber fight. Kylo toys around with him until Finn gets a lucky hit in on his shoulder then Kylo disarms him then takes him out. It is fairly obvious that Kylo has training in that scene, and that while both are angry, it isn't really a match.

Relapse wrote:
For me, one of the high points of the film was the botched escape attempt using the Tie Fighter. It was pretty well written comedy with a bonus of seeing the inside of one.

What ruined that for me was the fact it's exactly what happened previously- Poe gets in a ship, tries to take off and stormtroopers start shooting at him. His X-Wing is crippled by a single shot. Granted it could have been lucky but we're then show that blaster fire is sufficient to wreck an X-Wing. Meanwhile in the hangar he's stuck there on the fuel line taking what must be dozens of hits. Because I was just shown what happens to an X-Wing I expected the TIE to suffer a similar fate. It doesn't of course, which leaves me wondering why. I can only assume that TIE's now have shields and Poe raised them at some point we're not shown (and did not raise the X-Wing shields). Stealing a ship is a great idea, but I don't know why they had to have them caught there. If they'd just flown out it would have avoided the issue.

Another inconsistency is that when Rey and Finn are being pursued in the Falcon, Finn questions if the shields are up as they're taking fire. Rey says it's hard with no co pilot while reaching out, struggling to reach across to the other side of the cockpit (terrible place to put shields but whatever). The Falcon takes six or seven blasts from the TIEs. Now I know it's a pretty tough old ship, but it took only two blasts each to destroy two turbo laser batteries on the star destroyer. It seems crazy to me that the main guns on a military vessel are less durable than a 50+ year old freighter. That's going to mess with SW firepower numbers no end

From what I could tell Kylo was wounded and was toying with him, but the problem was is that from what I saw Kylo was sorta indirectly teaching Rey, but from what I saw that injury he suffered with his dominant hand was probably enough to make him fairly weak. So Rey defeating him was no surprise.

The problem with that theory is that Rey is unconscious for most of that fight. She awakens to Finn screaming from the exhaust jet burn. If Rey learned she learned while being blacked out, which is extremely impressive. After that burn Finn almost immediately gets his luck shot in, at which point Ren stops toying with him, clocks him, disarms him and cuts him down. She's got very, very little time to learn. She doesn't even cry out or react to Finn being cut down, which is fine. Seconds ago we saw her POV with blurred vision, so she's probably still coming round. Of course she does go from that to TKing the saber from Ren to herself.

Which is where you lose people like me. Luke's first TK was something he had to close his eye and focus on. With real effort and work he managed to pull his saber from the snow a few feet to his hand. Rey on the other hand seems to get up from being stunned and just decide to rip the saber out of the grip of Ren. Say what you want about his saber skills, his TK game is strong.

I would really have preferred to see her use raw force. Pushes, area wide knockbacks, even instinctively pulling trees into his way or something. But have Ren closing in on her, with Luke's saber. Right up to the point where he stabs her and she can pull a Satele Shan- raw force absorb powers and hold off the lightsaber with her hand. Her and Ren share a look, her strong and confident as she feels the force flowing through her and him confused, realising that the dark is not stronger than the light. Then maybe she uses his move back, throwing him 30 feet backwards into a tree, dropping the saber at her feet. Ground opens up and they're separated. You show she's extremely strong in the force (specifically the defensive light side), she gets the saber and you don't have to explain how she sucked with a saber for the first half of the fight then suddenly got really good in the second.

You know, how she lost and won the duel

I think we need to remember the difference between "I would have handled this scene differently" and "Rey is not a reasonable character". We've seen force users figure out how to use powers with little or no training in previous movies, and arguing that a scene could have been better with a different execution of the jedi mind trick or whatever doesn't mean that the version we got is unreasonable. It's quite possible for a scene to be both less than perfect and reasonable at the same time.

 Peregrine wrote:
I think we need to remember the difference between "I would have handled this scene differently" and "Rey is not a reasonable character". We've seen force users figure out how to use powers with little or no training in previous movies, and arguing that a scene could have been better with a different execution of the jedi mind trick or whatever doesn't mean that the version we got is unreasonable. It's quite possible for a scene to be both less than perfect and reasonable at the same time.

I'd concur with that!

 Flashman wrote:
Minor point - why are some of you calling her Rei as opposed to Rey? Is her name spelt differently in the States?

Honestly I never bothered too much with the spelling. I wasn't too sure if it was kylo renn or kylo ren honestly. I'm bad with names and can't remember most of the new people's names. Took me forever to remember poe's name was poe even.

 Kojiro wrote:

Relapse wrote:
For me, one of the high points of the film was the botched escape attempt using the Tie Fighter. It was pretty well written comedy with a bonus of seeing the inside of one.

What ruined that for me was the fact it's exactly what happened previously- Poe gets in a ship, tries to take off and stormtroopers start shooting at him. His X-Wing is crippled by a single shot. Granted it could have been lucky but we're then show that blaster fire is sufficient to wreck an X-Wing. Meanwhile in the hangar he's stuck there on the fuel line taking what must be dozens of hits. Because I was just shown what happens to an X-Wing I expected the TIE to suffer a similar fate. It doesn't of course, which leaves me wondering why. I can only assume that TIE's now have shields and Poe raised them at some point we're not shown (and did not raise the X-Wing shields). Stealing a ship is a great idea, but I don't know why they had to have them caught there. If they'd just flown out it would have avoided the issue.

I think it was a lucky hit, when he runs to the back of the ship, you can see on his face that something important got smoked. Later when he steals the tie fighter, you see the stormtroopers racing to set up a heavier blaster. I don't think they get it set up in time before Finn starts blasting everything. It's also unclear how many shots hit the Tie fighter. I'm pretty sure I saw one shot hit the wing, but it all happens very fast, and it's possible the stormtroopers missed a lot, given their special training

I would really have preferred to see her use raw force. Pushes, area wide knockbacks, even instinctively pulling trees into his way or something. But have Ren closing in on her, with Luke's saber. Right up to the point where he stabs her and she can pull a Satele Shan- raw force absorb powers and hold off the lightsaber with her hand. Her and Ren share a look, her strong and confident as she feels the force flowing through her and him confused, realising that the dark is not stronger than the light. Then maybe she uses his move back, throwing him 30 feet backwards into a tree, dropping the saber at her feet. Ground opens up and they're separated. You show she's extremely strong in the force (specifically the defensive light side), she gets the saber and you don't have to explain how she sucked with a saber for the first half of the fight then suddenly got really good in the second.

I think I liked the film version better. Although now you mention it, there is a part in the middle of that scene where Rey closes her eyes for way too long (and probably should have died) but I think she gets in touch with the force or something, that might explain why she was a bit more powerful during the second half.

Me and the GF saw it tonight, overall we both enjoyed it but we both knew what was gonna happen to Han as soon as he stepped on the bridge. Sucks but Ford ain't no spring chicken anymore and this way he gets to be the obi-wan of this trilogy. Someone wise and old has to sacrifice themselves at the end of the first movie of each trilogy, it's the rules. I read somewhere that he was signed to be in part 2, so maybe he'll be a ghost or something.

We both also decided that Rae and Ben are bro and sis, maybe even twins, separated at birth. That will be revealed in the next one. I remembered seeing a trailer somewhere where Luke was doing a voice over saying the force was strong with his family.. But he didn't have a single line in the movie, so I concluded that little speech is being saved for the next film and he'll be saying that to Rae right after he says, "I'm your uncle luke, btw" .. And then Liea gave Rae a super big hug at the end there like she was hugging her long lost kid, but wasn't allowed to say it.

We also both liked Fin, but thought it was kinda silly that he hated killing people in the beginning, then spent the rest of the movie murdering every stormtrooper he could find.

So C3P0 lost an arm years ago, and now he has a red one. Couldn't they have painted it gold somewhere along the line so he will match? The new droid was fun, but he was just R2 with a ball. Couldn't they have just kept R2?

 Necros wrote:
Me and the GF saw it tonight, overall we both enjoyed it but we both knew what was gonna happen to Han as soon as he stepped on the bridge. Sucks but Ford ain't no spring chicken anymore and this way he gets to be the obi-wan of this trilogy. Someone wise and old has to sacrifice themselves at the end of the first movie of each trilogy, it's the rules. I read somewhere that he was signed to be in part 2, so maybe he'll be a ghost or something.

We both also decided that Rae and Ben are bro and sis, maybe even twins, separated at birth. That will be revealed in the next one. I remembered seeing a trailer somewhere where Luke was doing a voice over saying the force was strong with his family.. But he didn't have a single line in the movie, so I concluded that little speech is being saved for the next film and he'll be saying that to Rae right after he says, "I'm your uncle luke, btw" .. And then Liea gave Rae a super big hug at the end there like she was hugging her long lost kid, but wasn't allowed to say it.

We also both liked Fin, but thought it was kinda silly that he hated killing people in the beginning, then spent the rest of the movie murdering every stormtrooper he could find.

So C3P0 lost an arm years ago, and now he has a red one. Couldn't they have painted it gold somewhere along the line so he will match? The new droid was fun, but he was just R2 with a ball. Couldn't they have just kept R2?

Because R2-d2 was only going to be apart of the story for a short time.

 Necros wrote:
I remembered seeing a trailer somewhere where Luke was doing a voice over saying the force was strong with his family.. But he didn't have a single line in the movie, so I concluded that little speech is being saved for the next film and he'll be saying that to Rae right after he says, "I'm your uncle luke, btw" .. And then Liea gave Rae a super big hug at the end there like she was hugging her long lost kid, but wasn't allowed to say it.

The hug at the end with Princess Leia was a bit odd, since they never actually met during the film. There are quite a few lines from the trailers which weren't in the film. I also don't remember hearing the "Who are you? ... I'm no one" line. And a lot of stuff is really out of context.

As for Rey's parents. I was hoping that Mara Jade would make an appearance somewhere. Even though the expanded universe is out, she's a fan favourite, it would be crazy to have such a popular character handed to you, and not use her. Finn's character is quite similar to Davin Felth from the expanded universe.

So C3P0 lost an arm years ago, and now he has a red one. Couldn't they have painted it gold somewhere along the line so he will match? The new droid was fun, but he was just R2 with a ball. Couldn't they have just kept R2?

They like to change things up because of copyright issues. R2-D2 is already 30 years old. In the UK the design rights have already expired. C3PO with a red arm might be distinctive enough to give him a new lease of IP protection.

 Necros wrote:
We also both liked Fin, but thought it was kinda silly that he hated killing people in the beginning, then spent the rest of the movie murdering every stormtrooper he could find.

He hated the First Order, and probably more specifically being given the order to kill civilians. Part of his story arc is finding something worth fighting for, and the First Order twernt it.

 Peregrine wrote:
I think we need to remember the difference between "I would have handled this scene differently" and "Rey is not a reasonable character".

Those are not mutually exclusive by any stretch. Bad writing cries out for 'this is how I'd have done it. Ultimately this is going to come down to expectations about how the force works when defining 'reasonable'.

 Peregrine wrote:
We've seen force users figure out how to use powers with little or no training in previous movies,

Do you think that training and being mentored provide any substantial benefit to a force user? Do you think a force user who trains for years to master their mental manipulation abilities and one show just gives it a crack cos she's heard a legend are equally likely to succeed on the same target?

We both also decided that Rae and Ben are bro and sis, maybe even twins, separated at birth.

We know Ren is 10 years older then Rey so the twins thing is definitely out. Cousins at best, unless we explain why Leia and Han don't remember their daughter and abandoned her.

Smacks wrote:I think it was a lucky hit, when he runs to the back of the ship, you can see on his face that something important got smoked.

See I think you're right it was a lucky hit, but we see afterwards that the Stormtrooper weapons are more than capable of shredding the X-Wing. That's the problem- sustained fire from half a dozen utterly wrecks the X-Wing but sustained fire from an entire hangar full of troopers for a good 20 seconds doesn't seem to cause any damage at all. Avoiding showing the wrecked X-Wing would have solved this, as would have just skipping the fuel line snag. Leaving the X-Wing alone would also go some way to explaining Poe (yeah I went back to my ship, had time to patch it up and booked it back to base).

 Kojiro wrote:
Do you think that training and being mentored provide any substantial benefit to a force user? Do you think a force user who trains for years to master their mental manipulation abilities and one show just gives it a crack cos she's heard a legend are equally likely to succeed on the same target?

I'm sure that training does provide a benefit, but how do we know that the jedi mind trick, at least against an easy target like a stormtrooper, is a difficult enough task that an untrained user can't do it? For example, someone who spends years practicing marksmanship is going to be a better shot than someone who just picked up a gun, but they are both going to have no problem shooting someone from 6" away.

Also, don't forget that Rey had to try it a couple of times and fail before she got it right. And when she did get it right she had to take a moment to focus and seemed just on the edge of failing again. Training would probably pay off in having the ability to do it effortlessly like Obi-wan did with the stormtroopers in ANH.

[Copy and paste from thread that was closed down.... even though this thread is full of spoilers that I don't care to be subjected to..... thank you censor bringers, ahem, mods]

I was once a huge fan of star wars, then I opened up a GW rulebook and found .... spehs mehreens...

To this day, I can not help but look at Star Wars as something not just different than Warhammer, but inferior. It's a complex I guess. However, recently after seeing the poster of episode 7, and hearing a bit about it, all I can say is that the divide in my mind has widened. SW ep7 sounds less about fiction and more about SJW maneuvering tossed up with nostalgia.

I'm sure there are some people on here that would be glad to point out how wrong I am in multiple ways, but hey, just look at the fundamental thing I'm pointing to: you can't deny SW has evolved into equal race/gender casting roles because it is literally in your face.

I really do like fiction. I like fantasy. I also like sci fi. Star wars Ep7 looks to be less of any of these, and more about the Disney experience. It so happens that Disney likes to capitalize on the equality ticket - it's been this way for almost as long as I can remember. Heck, movies in general anymore are like this more and more. It's become a matter of experience over immersion. As a tangent, consider how cinema has changed on the most basic level over the years, you'll now see quite a lack of camera panning or, that even the camera frames during dialogues hardly last longer than 5-10 seconds, before it flips back to (politically correct) pretty face B. And that's a situation for real acting?

So aside from the whole cinema lacking over the years, going back to ep7: is racial preference that bad, in a movie? If you were to choose all white dudes, for a series that's been mostly cast that way, is it so racist to continue doing that? Or, so sexist for the devs to portray a patriarchal society that bars women in a military? If these weren't political issues today, I'd be less inclined to think these are political assertions being spun as normal in fiction. Instead, that they look exclusively like 'this is actually normal, and see, it works'.

Then there's that capitalist perspective - that catering to more demographs via token actors sells better. Just saying - as it seems to stink here with ep7.

So yea, this simply makes me want to go back to where things make sense in my mind - regards to fantasy/sci fi: bolters & chainswords & Power fists & Xenos Scum & Grim Dark Humor.

I will wait until it hits tape/amazon before I watch ep7 - most likely, or unless my wife makes me go.



The last movie that really felt like it had something special in it was the Lego Movie.

 kveldulf wrote:
[Copy and paste from thread that was closed down.... even though this thread is full of spoilers that I don't care to be subjected to..... thank you censor bringers, ahem, mods]

Do we really need another copy of your "Star Wars is SJW because the cast isn't all white men" rant?

And sorry, but I have to laugh at your complaint of "censorship". Your thread was locked because it was a duplicate, you're still free to post your ideas, as terrible as they are.

Is there any reason why a part can't be played by [race/gender] or was anything lost because of it? Should [race/gender] only play a part when a role specifically requires [race/gender]?

Two good actors played good parts, end of story.

 Kojiro wrote:

Relapse wrote:
For me, one of the high points of the film was the botched escape attempt using the Tie Fighter. It was pretty well written comedy with a bonus of seeing the inside of one.

What ruined that for me was the fact it's exactly what happened previously- Poe gets in a ship, tries to take off and stormtroopers start shooting at him. His X-Wing is crippled by a single shot. Granted it could have been lucky but we're then show that blaster fire is sufficient to wreck an X-Wing. Meanwhile in the hangar he's stuck there on the fuel line taking what must be dozens of hits. Because I was just shown what happens to an X-Wing I expected the TIE to suffer a similar fate. It doesn't of course, which leaves me wondering why. I can only assume that TIE's now have shields and Poe raised them at some point we're not shown (and did not raise the X-Wing shields). Stealing a ship is a great idea, but I don't know why they had to have them caught there. If they'd just flown out it would have avoided the issue.

Well, according to Fantasy Flight Games the TIE fighters now have shields. They also stole a Special Forces TIE, which may be tougher.

 Kojiro wrote:
Stealing a ship is a great idea, but I don't know why they had to have them caught there. If they'd just flown out it would have avoided the issue.

I think this is kind of representative of the movie's flaws. Why not just escape without getting caught? Because it would miss an opportunity to have a big explosion-filled action scene. It seems like over and over again the most reasonable option is thrown out in favor of having more explosions.

 Necros wrote:
I remembered seeing a trailer somewhere where Luke was doing a voice over saying the force was strong with his family.. But he didn't have a single line in the movie, so I concluded that little speech is being saved for the next film and he'll be saying that to Rae right after he says, "I'm your uncle luke, btw" .. And then Liea gave Rae a super big hug at the end there like she was hugging her long lost kid, but wasn't allowed to say it.

It was his speech from Return of the Jedi to Leia. Notice in the trailer he said 'my father has it', present tense.

As for stuff in the trailers that wasn't in the movie, JJ said he was still editing the film 2 weeks prior to the premier. Lots of stuff gets left on the cutting room floor.

 Peregrine wrote:
[
I'm sure that training does provide a benefit, but how do we know that the jedi mind trick, at least against an easy target like a stormtrooper,

That sounds like a brain bug. I can't see any reason why all stormtroopers are inherently weak willed. There was after all the canon example I posted up before where Luke failed the mind trick on an Imperial base guard. Plus we know the the FO troopers are mentally conditioned. To be fair though I'm not sure that doesn't mean that accept all instruction better of if the programming they have makes them closed off to thoughts that violate their duties. Could be either or to be honest thinking about it.

is a difficult enough task that an untrained user can't do it?

It's difficult enough that Luke (after ANH) failed, as did Ashoka. That doesn't strictly answer the question I know, but it does mean it's not as simple as merely knowing it's possible. And raw power probably helps too, which Rey isn't short on, but could be it's all finesse, like picking a lock. All the muscle in the world doesn't help there. In fact too much raw uncontrolled power could even be a detriment. She could attempt a mind trick only to have the guy fall down bleeding from the nose or similar. Eh, magic. Who knows?

For example, someone who spends years practicing marksmanship is going to be a better shot than someone who just picked up a gun, but they are both going to have no problem shooting someone from 6" away.

Well that's the question isn't it? If it was the equivalent of shooting someone at 6" away then we should have zero failures. Of course that doesn't make it a 250 yard shot either. The fact it's failed indicates a non trivial difficulty.

Also, don't forget that Rey had to try it a couple of times and fail before she got it right. And when she did get it right she had to take a moment to focus and seemed just on the edge of failing again. Training would probably pay off in having the ability to do it effortlessly like Obi-wan did with the stormtroopers in ANH.

Honestly I think that's a point against her. I honestly think that the more conflicting the instruction is the harder it should be to do. I also think having failed she would have strengthened his resolve. Which I think sorta plays into why it doesn't sit well with me. She fails and he's on to her. At that point she doesn't so much mind trick him as mentally dominate him. I think there's an important difference between the ability to influence someone and the ability to dominate them.

I'm sure there are some people on here that would be glad to point out how wrong I am in multiple ways, but hey, just look at the fundamental thing I'm pointing to: you can't deny SW has evolved into equal race/gender casting roles because it is literally in your face.

Look, I'm not a fan of the whole SJW thing and if forced to pick a side I'd be against them more often than not, though part of the problem with the groups involved is the pressure to be either/or, while I like to be more central.

Yes TFA is deliberately diversely cast. I have no problem with this. In fact if I had any problem it was with the age of the cast, as they all appear to be quite young except for our old heroes (duh).

So when they updated it I'm glad they replaced all the white dudes, but I think the leadership of an organisation like the Rebel Alliance/Resistance should be made up of senior members. Lando would have been excellent there.

I will grant you that the First Order was pretty heavily portrayed as white, with I think a single Indian woman as the exception. That may be an artefact of them trying to preserve the Imperial/English accent (another brain bug, thanks Tarkin!). And of course the one Stormtrooper with a conscious is black. But that's ok, I have plenty of movies with white dudes and it's not like white people are never evil. Han does a pretty good job of showing they can be awesome too. It's a galaxy where you can get from one side to the other in a few days at most and every other country bumpkin can fly a ship. Diversity should be almost impossible to avoid.

I suppose you could argue that a truly diverse cast would properly represent the 200+ alien species. They do seem to be rather heavy on the humans. I mean, we're only one of 200+ races yet 95% of the characters on screen are human?








Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Well, according to Fantasy Flight Games the TIE fighters now have shields. They also stole a Special Forces TIE, which may be tougher.

They do indeed according to Wookieepedia. And hyperdrives, which is good because if Finn was planning an escape to anywhere but Jakku he's gonna need one.

I'm 99% sure the 2 seater TIE exists as a plot mechanism to get them both off the ship. They wanted a dramatic escape but couldn't justify it in one of those landing boat transports or a shuttle so they decided to make a 2 seater TIE. In fact given that it's description says that it is the first TIE with life support (thus negating the need for the life support suit/helmet) it seems incredibly convenient that such a vehicle happened to be available. It's literally the perfect vehicle to get them out.

Regarding to those who replied to my thread:

I don't need to watch the actual movie to determine I won't like it. For example, I don't need to watch 50 shades of grey to determine that it's garbage for the mind.

Regarding whether it is SJW maneuvering:

Listen, if you want to get caught up in the extremity of what that word means in your mind, fine but lets not deconstruct the essence of my argument that was made pretty darn clear:
The movie has simply changed a paradigm in SW, and I don't think this revision is something as innocent/creative under the hood as Disney would make you believe.

Objectively, the film may just stand on its own merit despite the political inferences inserted. However, because these do exist within the production, I doubt the longevity of the series, or the immersion its attempting to create, will actually be there or last.

***

On a more specific note:

If you fundamentally think that independent women characters can be as iconic as men, then define your terms. The template I usually see portrayed in these roles revolves around super imposing reality to fit an ideology of women = men, when it comes to abilities.

It's almost like a subconscious thing, that invokes men as a referent to then put back into place. It's something I don't think will ever go away until humanity all becomes hermaphrodites Some films don't do this as much, but its still there. It's an immersion breaking mechanism - if you're not deluded, that is, unaware of the order of nature.

Also, on matter of race - in fiction, I don't care so much as to what color a lead character happens to be, just so long as there is intention driven within the universe that at least defines/alludes to the culture associated to skin color. I'd much more believe an all black galactic empire as it resembles a common thing in RL - races tend to congregate. There are exceptions, but the generality is an observation that most in RL see first hand, thus, seeing it in a fictional setting spurs immersion (just an example). Going into the realm that skin color doesn't matter could be justified in some manner like conscription, but that can only go so far before it just looks convoluted to what we compare it with - reality.

***

Ultimately, what I'm trying to say, in some condensed view, is that I just have a reservation with the copy/paste 'race, culture & gender ultimately don't matter templates'.
That view is more political than something really consistent within the genres I reckon, and it only hurts the immersion of those settings.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:
[Copy and paste from thread that was closed down.... even though this thread is full of spoilers that I don't care to be subjected to..... thank you censor bringers, ahem, mods]

Do we really need another copy of your "Star Wars is SJW because the cast isn't all white men" rant?

And sorry, but I have to laugh at your complaint of "censorship". Your thread was locked because it was a duplicate, you're still free to post your ideas, as terrible as they are.

The thread was redirected regardless of my title saying " No Spoilers", while this thread is full of em.

Also, can you sound anymore passive aggressive?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kojiro wrote:

I'm sure there are some people on here that would be glad to point out how wrong I am in multiple ways, but hey, just look at the fundamental thing I'm pointing to: you can't deny SW has evolved into equal race/gender casting roles because it is literally in your face.

Look, I'm not a fan of the whole SJW thing and if forced to pick a side I'd be against them more often than not, though part of the problem with the groups involved is the pressure to be either/or, while I like to be more central.

Yes TFA is deliberately diversely cast. I have no problem with this. In fact if I had any problem it was with the age of the cast, as they all appear to be quite young except for our old heroes (duh).

So when they updated it I'm glad they replaced all the white dudes, but I think the leadership of an organisation like the Rebel Alliance/Resistance should be made up of senior members. Lando would have been excellent there.

I will grant you that the First Order was pretty heavily portrayed as white, with I think a single Indian woman as the exception. That may be an artefact of them trying to preserve the Imperial/English accent (another brain bug, thanks Tarkin!). And of course the one Stormtrooper with a conscious is black. But that's ok, I have plenty of movies with white dudes and it's not like white people are never evil. Han does a pretty good job of showing they can be awesome too. It's a galaxy where you can get from one side to the other in a few days at most and every other country bumpkin can fly a ship. Diversity should be almost impossible to avoid.

I suppose you could argue that a truly diverse cast would properly represent the 200+ alien species. They do seem to be rather heavy on the humans. I mean, we're only one of 200+ races yet 95% of the characters on screen are human?

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Aye, I've only come to expect this kind of thing, but they did it to SW. It hits a nerve.

Most other settings, I'd be more inclined to go 'mmmkay'. In this case, I guess I felt like I needed to ring the bell.

Explain why Star Wars shouldn't have a female of black "hero" and we may be better able to understand why you think having them is s problem.

Because honestly, at this point it just seem like you are going to argue that any black actor is the result of SJWd unless a character HAS to be black (whatever that would mean). Or any women unless it HAS to be a woman.

And what about Dart Vader being voiced by a, very iconic, black guy, Lando being a black guy and blowing up the second Death Star, and Mace Windu being a bad motherjedi? All SJW castings to satisfy Disney?

Really? Complaining about a film you haven't seen because you somehow have a problem with female main characters.

Also nothing about the females in the new Star Wars makes them men. I woman being able to fight or defend herself does not make her a man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The idea that black or female characters in an movie means that the movie is a social justice political statement is quite frankly disturbing and the fact that in a Universe with aliens and robots black and female main characters make you uncomfortable is bizzare.

That said we should probably avoid this subject, the last thread was locked for a reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
Explain why Star Wars shouldn't have a female of black "hero" and we may be better able to understand why you think having them is s problem.

Because honestly, at this point it just seem like you are going to argue that any black actor is the result of SJWd unless a character HAS to be black (whatever that would mean). Or any women unless it HAS to be a woman.

And what about Dart Vader being voiced by a, very iconic, black guy, Lando being a black guy and blowing up the second Death Star, and Mace Windu being a bad motherjedi? All SJW castings to satisfy Disney?

Black people and women in movies are obviously a political statement and not just a reflection that those people exist in the world.