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Finally, tie fighters are star fighters, built primarily for space fighting, clearly they're capable of atmospheric flight, but that doesn't mean they're good at it (note that they're curiously absent from the ground battles on Hoth and Endor).

You mean to say the Falcon isnt a SPACE freighter, built primarily for space transport? Clearly its capable of atmospheric flight, but that doesnt mean its good at it.

"I... I don't believe it..."
"That is why you failed."

In my view, that line perfectly sums up the difference between Luke and Rey. Rey is all about the belief.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Death Maul and Vader (post fall) on the other hand...do you think they could have hidden themselves from the Jedi order?

Darth Mauls was a pure blood Sith..you can't hide that

Vader actually did just that during his teen time. Somehow, nobody sensed the DS into him until the very, very end. The fact that Palpatine was the strongest Sith in existence is just the problem - he was the strongest Sith there is. The very incorporation of the Dark Side - and nobody was able to even feel the tiniest bit of dark space magic in him? Never? That just isn't believable at all.

 Compel wrote:
"I... I don't believe it..."
"That is why you failed."

In my view, that line perfectly sums up the difference between Luke and Rey. Rey is all about the belief.

Isn't that basically the difference between Anakin and Luke?

Luke was a great character because he had a lot of doubt, and even after seeing and doing so much he didn't have full belief, and as such was unsure of himself. At the end of the series he's still not perfect, he does break down at one point and almost kills Vader but pulls back at the last second. He was a very human character, chosen but flawed.

Anakin on the other hand did very right, even when he did it wrong, and everyone just kind of went with it for some unknown reason. He was a straight up caricature of what a hero is, he didn't feel genuine or real, he just felt like someone who did things because it drove the story and not because he'd actually do them.

Rey feels like an in between but definitely leaning more towards Anakin than Luke. Even if she believes, the amount of power she just happens to have because of that is absurd, and Kylo believes too, but has had significant training in what he's doing. Rey not only resists but just reverse mind reads him when he tries to use it on her, because she believes? She just manages to force grab a lightsaber and beat Kylo, because she believes? It's fine to give her some powers because she believes, but at least make her fail once in a while when using those powers early on, like Luke did... Or hell, if you want her to be the character that she is, just look at Korra, she was very skilled but ultimately she had flaws and despite having all the faith in herself early on that faith was tested over time and lead to her growth as a whole. Rey just doesn't feel genuine, more genuine than Anakin, but that's like saying she wasn't acted by a bowl of potato salad.

 George Spiggott wrote:
I still don't understand why Finn climbed into the lower gun turret, other than to set up the 'hail mary' shot with the locked gun. The Falcon was on the ground so it made much more sense to go to the upper gun turret. Finn even instructs Rey to fly low making his turret position even more useless.

I assume Force users are just good at flying space ships because "The Force". Luke had no training in X-wings, Anakin had no training in those yellow fighters.

Well, Rey told him the gun turret was down the ladder.

Maybe having a second turret which is on the top is a modification to the standard corellian freighter design and so she wouldn't have known about it?

Or perhaps she did know about the upper gun but it was damaged or otherwise inoperable? I don't think we ever see it fire in the film.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 George Spiggott wrote:
I still don't understand why Finn climbed into the lower gun turret, other than to set up the 'hail mary' shot with the locked gun. The Falcon was on the ground so it made much more sense to go to the upper gun turret. Finn even instructs Rey to fly low making his turret position even more useless.

I assume Force users are just good at flying space ships because "The Force". Luke had no training in X-wings, Anakin had no training in those yellow fighters.

Well, Rey told him the gun turret was down the ladder.

Maybe having a second turret which is on the top is a modification to the standard corellian freighter design and so she wouldn't have known about it?

Or perhaps she did know about the upper gun but it was damaged or otherwise inoperable? I don't think we ever see it fire in the film.

The bottom gun meant that she was able to pull up to brake and let Finn shoot at the X-Wing that shot by. If he was on top she could only have slowed down by crashing into the ground.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the whole "flies better than Han Solo" argument: Han Solo does better stunts in this film alone, let alone all the other ones. She even comments on his piloting ability.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Death Maul and Vader (post fall) on the other hand...do you think they could have hidden themselves from the Jedi order?

Darth Mauls was a pure blood Sith..you can't hide that

Vader actually did just that during his teen time. Somehow, nobody sensed the DS into him until the very, very end. The fact that Palpatine was the strongest Sith in existence is just the problem - he was the strongest Sith there is. The very incorporation of the Dark Side - and nobody was able to even feel the tiniest bit of dark space magic in him? Never? That just isn't believable at all.

Darth Maul was a Zabrak, not a Sith (the species, at least).

 kveldulf wrote:
Almost Prophetic? ......

http://www.filmbagger.com/starwars7willsuck.html

Well, let's see the charges and how they stick :

1)Painfully kid-friendly : Not even close. BB-8 is the only "kid-friendly" element, and let's admit it, even adults find him fething cute as feth. In any case, his predictions about the cast being mostly tweens sure didn't pan out. Rey is the youngest character, but her age is hard to pin down. She could play a 17 to 19 years old, but her "survivor" character attitude ensures she might as well be in her early 30s.

2) Tons and tons of new characters : How stupid is this critic? The film is set 30 years later than the last. Obviously, very very obviously, there's going to be new characters. How is this even a problem?

3) Stupid pointless plot twist : I fail to think of a "twist" that would not be essential in driving the story forward...

4) Every character is going to be Han Solo : Funny enough, this is the truest of his predictions... because two characters are "Han Solo"... Finn and Han Solo! JJ tried to reintroduce elements that were part of the story in the 4-5-6 trilogy but never introduced in the films, such as Han's defection from the stormtrooper corps through Finn's defection.

5) 8th is going to be the dark one : More or less. 7th didn't exactly end well. The Republic is politically and militarily annihilated. One central character dies. There is a major vibe of despair . The only positive note is that Starkiller Base is blown. Compared to the state of affairs that the 4th left us in, things are much much worse, even though they might seem fairly the same at first.

6) Complete market saturation : It's a SW movie. What do you expect? And again, how does this amount to a critique of the film???

7) Sex : Nope, not even once. There is not a single shred of sexualisation of any characters in the film.

8) PG-13 violence : You expect a bloody SW? Really?

9) Black and white morality : It's as if this guy doesn't know he's supposed to be writing a critique of SW.

10) Winks to the original : That's what we call "establishing the continuity".

11) Boba Fett returns : Nope.


You might want to find better prophets. Or movie critics. While you're at it, you may also ditch your stormfront and order of nature hermeneutics.

4) Every character is going to be Han Solo : Funny enough, this is the truest of his predictions... because two characters are "Han Solo"... Finn and Han Solo! JJ tried to reintroduce elements that were part of the story in the 4-5-6 trilogy but never introduced in the films, such as Han's defection from the stormtrooper corps through Finn's defection.

That's no longer canon, according to the wiki. In the Disney canon, Han was always a smuggler.

So I just saw the movie again for the third time today and it definitely holds up. I enjoyed it this time even more than my previous two viewings; opening night was amazing because the crowd and the energy and the second time I was with my kids which is not the optimal way to enjoy a movie (I'm sure parents of elementary school children would agree).

The best part is that every single bit of annoying bs criticism of Rey that has been floated around is addressed in the film so there is no real need to keep arguing about it, though I'm sure people will keep going on about it so here you go:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:


The best part is that every single bit of annoying bs criticism of Rey that has been floated around is addressed in the film so there is no real need to keep arguing about it, though I'm sure people will keep going on about it so here you go:

Spoiler:

If someone has to resort to insults instead of arguments, it tells us more about said person than his arguments.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
So I just saw the movie again for the third time today and it definitely holds up. I enjoyed it this time even more than my previous two viewings; opening night was amazing because the crowd and the energy and the second time I was with my kids which is not the optimal way to enjoy a movie (I'm sure parents of elementary school children would agree).

The best part is that every single bit of annoying bs criticism of Rey that has been floated around is addressed in the film so there is no real need to keep arguing about it, though I'm sure people will keep going on about it so here you go:

Spoiler:

Tell me again why she understands Wookie.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
So I just saw the movie again for the third time today and it definitely holds up. I enjoyed it this time even more than my previous two viewings; opening night was amazing because the crowd and the energy and the second time I was with my kids which is not the optimal way to enjoy a movie (I'm sure parents of elementary school children would agree).

The best part is that every single bit of annoying bs criticism of Rey that has been floated around is addressed in the film so there is no real need to keep arguing about it, though I'm sure people will keep going on about it so here you go:

Spoiler:

Tell me again why she understands Wookie.

Because Han was her uncle.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
So I just saw the movie again for the third time today and it definitely holds up. I enjoyed it this time even more than my previous two viewings; opening night was amazing because the crowd and the energy and the second time I was with my kids which is not the optimal way to enjoy a movie (I'm sure parents of elementary school children would agree).

The best part is that every single bit of annoying bs criticism of Rey that has been floated around is addressed in the film so there is no real need to keep arguing about it, though I'm sure people will keep going on about it so here you go:

Spoiler:

Tell me again why she understands Wookie.

Because she encountered Wookies on Jakku?
Because she learned the Wookie language as part of her youngling Padawan training in Luke's New Jedi Order?

The criticism of the "can't fail" elements of Rey's character is intriguing.

1. She does fail against Ren the first time around

2. The same criticism can be leveled at pretty much any male lead character. Here's 10 right off the bat...

James Bond - The very definition of male wish fulfillment
Superman - So invulnerable, they had to invent a plot device to make him vulnerable
Ethan Hunt - One of those (potentially fatal) crazy stunts should have failed by now
Captain America - Jumps out of planes without a parachute, takes down a lift crammed full of bad guys, never makes a bad judgement
Peter Quill / Star Lord - Defeats the impossible to beat bad guy at the end, because... reasons
Robin Hood (Kevin Costner or Russel Crowe) - It is frickin difficult to get an arrow on target (seriously, watch the Olympics), never mind slice a rope in half or critically wound Mark Strong in the neck when he's galloping away on a horse
Aragorn - Routinely takes on 30+ Uruk Hai and then gets his own invincible army
John McClane - Ok, he's pretty beat up by the end, but they send a gak load of bullets his way over the course of that film and not one of them causes a serious injury?
Any 80s/90s Arnie film character, but let's go with John Matrix - Is it ever in doubt that a man who got the drop on someone because he smelt his aftershave from 20 metres away is going to win.
Luke Skywalker - Yeah, I'm going to go there... blows up the Death Star having used his burgeoning force powers to guide his torpedoes towards "one shot in a million.", arguably harder than beating someone in a sword fight

 kveldulf wrote:
Almost Prophetic? ......

http://www.filmbagger.com/starwars7willsuck.html

NO way..that guy was way off on about 80% of his schtick.

GG

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

4) Every character is going to be Han Solo : Funny enough, this is the truest of his predictions... because two characters are "Han Solo"... Finn and Han Solo! JJ tried to reintroduce elements that were part of the story in the 4-5-6 trilogy but never introduced in the films, such as Han's defection from the stormtrooper corps through Finn's defection.

That's no longer canon, according to the wiki. In the Disney canon, Han was always a smuggler.

Yes. That doesn't change that Finn is clearly there to reintroduce that plot hook (and provide a more relatable character that's just bumbling around into insanely tragic events).

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
So I just saw the movie again for the third time today and it definitely holds up. I enjoyed it this time even more than my previous two viewings; opening night was amazing because the crowd and the energy and the second time I was with my kids which is not the optimal way to enjoy a movie (I'm sure parents of elementary school children would agree).

The best part is that every single bit of annoying bs criticism of Rey that has been floated around is addressed in the film so there is no real need to keep arguing about it, though I'm sure people will keep going on about it so here you go:

Spoiler:

Tell me again why she understands Wookie.

Because she encountered Wookies on Jakku?
Because she learned the Wookie language as part of her youngling Padawan training in Luke's New Jedi Order?

Good thing those moments were explained to us, and not based on speculation.

 d-usa wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
So I just saw the movie again for the third time today and it definitely holds up. I enjoyed it this time even more than my previous two viewings; opening night was amazing because the crowd and the energy and the second time I was with my kids which is not the optimal way to enjoy a movie (I'm sure parents of elementary school children would agree).

The best part is that every single bit of annoying bs criticism of Rey that has been floated around is addressed in the film so there is no real need to keep arguing about it, though I'm sure people will keep going on about it so here you go:

Spoiler:

Tell me again why she understands Wookie.

Because Han was her uncle.

Oh, when was this revealed? Around the same time that it was revealed she was a padawan at Luke's academy?

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:


Tell me again why she understands Wookie.

Doesn't force sensitivity sometimes manifest in an innate ability to understand languages? Pretty sure I read that somewhere, might've been in Knights of the Old Republic, though.

How does she know about Jedi, because nothing in the movie ever explains how she even heard about them. How did she know to cook her ration, we never even see her read any instructions. How does she now smell, we never even see her clean herself. How do storm troopers poop?

This "it wasn't explained in the movie and I have to speculate on something because Movie #7 in a 9 movie set wasn't a completely self contained movie leaving no questions by explaining everything and closing all loose ends and that's dumb" thing is getting a bit silly.

A New Hope never even explained that Vader was Luke's father, how he fell to the Dark Side after being born to a virgin. Worst movie ever.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:


Tell me again why she understands Wookie.

Doesn't force sensitivity sometimes manifest in an innate ability to understand languages? Pretty sure I read that somewhere, might've been in Knights of the Old Republic, though.

Sometimes, some people can even understand grunts, gestures, and body language to get a pretty good idea about what someone is saying.

@Mozzyfuzzy,

When did they tell us Rey was a skywalker? Let me tell you.


When they're at maz's (spelling?) place and she asks Han about Rey we cut away from his answer. Her next scene Maz is explaining to Rey why the lightsaber called to her.

"It was Anakin's and Luke skywalker's and now it calls to you." Now why would the skywalker family lightsaber have such an affinity with Rey? Because she's a skywalker.

Maz is excited about what's happening. She knows Rey is a skywalker. She knows that skywalkers get the job done. Another 'hint' is that Rey thinks that Luke is a myth. With all of the homage to the original trilogy thrown in it would parallel Luke's upbringing of believing something that is very real and in his future is just a myth.

The next set of indicators, while not specifically supporting that she's a skywalker, do line up with that assumption pretty well. Ben Solo/Kylo Ren knows a girl who is strong in the force (and is afraid of her power) since before he's seen Rey onscreen. Hearing that a girl accompanied the traitor and the droid made him more angry than the loss of the map to find Luke AND the traitor escaping together.

When meets her he calls her "the girl I've heard so much about." It's pretty obvious she's either been to the jedi temple while it was active or the Solo's have seen/heard about her power. So Kylo somehow knows about Rey and that she is strong in the force.

Rey understanding Shyriwook isn't something that needs to be explained. It's another hint that she is (somehow) related to the Solos.

Edit: you know who else knows skyriwook? Luke Skywalker.

 d-usa wrote:
How does she know about Jedi, because nothing in the movie ever explains how she even heard about them. How did she know to cook her ration, we never even see her read any instructions. How does she now smell, we never even see her clean herself. How do storm troopers poop?

This "it wasn't explained in the movie and I have to speculate on something because Movie #7 in a 9 movie set wasn't a completely self contained movie leaving no questions by explaining everything and closing all loose ends and that's dumb" thing is getting a bit silly.

A New Hope never even explained that Vader was Luke's father, how he fell to the Dark Side after being born to a virgin. Worst movie ever.

I'm sorry if wanting to know something as trivial as understanding wookie is a problem, I mean it's not like she jumped in the Falcon with Chewie at the end.... Oh wait.

I'm also sorry that wanting some set-up for her crucial plot points is a nuisance, as opposed to "lol, the force".

But don't let the fact she hasn't seen a wookie until chewie put you off, or am I speculating wrongly here?

Did she say "what's this? What's a Wookie? Why is he grunting?" in the movie?

I must have missed that "fact".

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:


I'm also sorry that wanting some set-up for her crucial plot points is a nuisance, as opposed to "lol, the force".

How is her understanding wookie one of "her crucial plot points"? How does she understand BB-8? How does she understand that little junker dude on top of the big robot grizzly bear?

Beyond any reasonable explanation, how have we not moved past the point where languages in sci-fi movies are acceptable topics to sperg all over?

 Scrabb wrote:
@Mozzyfuzzy,

When did they tell us Rey was a skywalker? Let me tell you.


When they're at maz's (spelling?) place and she asks Han about Rey we cut away from his answer. Her next scene Maz is explaining to Rey why the lightsaber called to her.

"It was Anakin's and Luke skywalker's and now it calls to you." Now why would the skywalker family lightsaber have such an affinity with Rey? Because she's a skywalker.

Maz is excited about what's happening. She knows Rey is a skywalker. She knows that skywalkers get the job done. Another 'hint' is that Rey thinks that Luke is a myth. With all of the homage to the original trilogy thrown in it would parallel Luke's upbringing of believing something that is very real and in his future is just a myth.

The next set of indicators, while not specifically supporting that she's a skywalker, do line up with that assumption pretty well. Ben Solo/Kylo Ren knows a girl who is strong in the force (and is afraid of her power) since before he's seen Rey onscreen. Hearing that a girl accompanied the traitor and the droid made him more angry than the loss of the map to find Luke AND the traitor escaping together.

When meets her he calls her "the girl I've heard so much about." It's pretty obvious she's either been to the jedi temple while it was active or the Solo's have seen/heard about her power. So Kylo somehow knows about Rey and that she is strong in the force.

Rey understanding Shyriwook isn't something that needs to be explained. It's another hint that she is (somehow) related to the Solos.

Edit: you know who else knows skyriwook? Luke Skywalker.

See I interpreted it as the force was using the Skywalker lightsaber as a receptacle to get to her, what with it being weighted in history and all that force jazz.

In all likelihood, she probably will turn out to be a skywalker as that's the easy route, but it's unfair to use speculation to give a character a get out of jail card, especially at this stage in the new trilogy.

Have the scavenger she saves bb8 from be a wookie, problem solved.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:


I'm also sorry that wanting some set-up for her crucial plot points is a nuisance, as opposed to "lol, the force".

How is her understanding wookie one of "her crucial plot points"? How does she understand BB-8? How does she understand that little junker dude on top of the big robot grizzly bear?

Beyond any reasonable explanation, how have we not moved past the point where languages in sci-fi movies are acceptable topics to sperg all over?

The bit where she hops in the falcon with Chewie as setup for the next movie, is kinda crucial no?

 d-usa wrote:
Did she say "what's this? What's a Wookie? Why is he grunting?" in the movie?

I must have missed that "fact".

How did she learn to "Kenobi" that guard when she was strapped to the chair? Do they really teach toddlers that in Jedi pre-school?

 d-usa wrote:
Did she say "what's this? What's a Wookie? Why is he grunting?" in the movie?

I must have missed that "fact".

I mean it's not like there's a bunch of odd aliens in the scavenger depot, for her to be surprised at. But again the issue is not "what's a wookie" the issue is that nobody translates for Chewie the first time they meet, she just straight up talks to him. Kinda opposite of how Han translates so Luke can understand in the first movie, and how there's a lengthy stretch of time where Luke getting the gist of it is fair game.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:


The bit where she hops in the falcon with Chewie as setup for the next movie, is kinda crucial no?

No, not really. But again, according to that very same logic, Luke understanding R2-D2 is a major and crucial plothole. Which, really, I think anyone can agree is simply not the case.

I don't see how these things are any different to most other SciFi films. These are pretty common tropes.

Finn does not understand the Wookie language. If he had, then I'd take that particular complaint more seriously.

This isn't a case of everybody suddenly and inexplicably being able to understand the big furball. Rey clearly has a secret identity and a hidden past, which is yet to be revealed. She's supposed to be mysterious, and we're going to learn more about her and some of those questions will be answered in the next film.

For all we know, her BFF at the New Jedi Order was a Wookie.

 Breotan wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Did she say "what's this? What's a Wookie? Why is he grunting?" in the movie?

I must have missed that "fact".

How did she learn to "Kenobi" that guard when she was strapped to the chair? Do they really teach toddlers that in Jedi pre-school?

-Possibly in Pre-J or Jedigarden
-Possibly from daddy
-Possibly from the Jedi legends she had heard
-Possibly from the Jedi doing the exact same thing to her in a scene in the same movie