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 timetowaste85 wrote:
Man, I need a bottle of aspirin after reading all the "Mary Sue" and "SJW" crap. Everyone (with intelligence) was offended by the prequel. JJ knew this, and built an homage to ANH to get people back into the feel of Star Wars. So what happens? A bunch of people who want to stand out as snowflakes say it's "too similar to ANH". Well, good. It's what JJ needed to do to rope everyone back in.

You don't understand the main criticism. A lot of people do not complain about it being "too similar", they complain about Abrams often downright copying scenes from the original movie. Where I agree with you and what I don't understand about that specific criticism is how that makes the movie bad...I mean, do all those people hate A New Hope too? TFA is a safe bank if you want to say it nicely and a cash-grab if you want to phrase it negatively. Abrams knew exactly what he did, he made a movie that would try to appeal to most people and thus, successfully, generate a good amount of cash.

TFA is extremely unoriginal, has poor character development and bland script writing, but it also has the certain Star Wars feel to it, it has really good action scenes and holy cow, it's goddamn Star Wars again! If a bit of overly PC decisions and rushed writing is what it takes to get a new Star Wars movie going, then, by all means, DO IT. Do you want to have Lucas do a new movie? The idiot who ruined the entire series? NO THANKS.

Next movie, gieeef.

I totally agree with Timetowaste, this is ANH for a new generation. It's impossible to get SW newbies onboard with ANH at this point, but TFA is a great common experience and launching point for everyone to get up to speed. It wasn't as original as I would have preferred, but it was original enough to be enjoyable.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Man, I need a bottle of aspirin after reading all the "Mary Sue" and "SJW" crap. Everyone (with intelligence) was offended by the prequel. JJ knew this, and built an homage to ANH to get people back into the feel of Star Wars. So what happens? A bunch of people who want to stand out as snowflakes say it's "too similar to ANH". Well, good. It's what JJ needed to do to rope everyone back in.

You don't understand the main criticism. A lot of people do not complain about it being "too similar", they complain about Abrams often downright copying scenes from the original movie. Where I agree with you and what I don't understand about that specific criticism is how that makes the movie bad...I mean, do all those people hate A New Hope too? TFA is a safe bank if you want to say it nicely and a cash-grab if you want to phrase it negatively. Abrams knew exactly what he did, he made a movie that would try to appeal to most people and thus, successfully, generate a good amount of cash.

TFA is extremely unoriginal, has poor character development and bland script writing, but it also has the certain Star Wars feel to it, it has really good action scenes and holy cow, it's goddamn Star Wars again! If a bit of overly PC decisions and rushed writing is what it takes to get a new Star Wars movie going, then, by all means, DO IT. Do you want to have Lucas do a new movie? The idiot who ruined the entire series? NO THANKS.

Next movie, gieeef.

I don't think I can criticise a company for making a blatant grab for cash while producing a pretty good movie. Its what was needed after all those trade federation shenanigans.

I did try to spot household objects being used as props. No Gilette lady razors being used as communicators on this film sadly.

 TheSilo wrote:
I totally agree with Timetowaste, this is ANH for a new generation. It's impossible to get SW newbies onboard with ANH at this point, but TFA is a great common experience and launching point for everyone to get up to speed. It wasn't as original as I would have preferred, but it was original enough to be enjoyable.

Aye. TFA isn't an actual new movie, it's more of a remake or re-imagination of ANH. If you closely look at it, a lot of hints at an actual continuation is the fan service stuff.

 insaniak wrote:
Finally got a chance to go see this.

Enjoyed the hell out of it. Little disappointed that Phasma turned out to be pretty much irrelevant. Amused that Chewbacca had all of the best lines...

Sure, there were a lot of parralels to the original movie, and it was all a bit rushed... But it felt far more like Star Wars than the prequels did, and left me really excited for the next movie.

Saw SWTFA today, and this pretty much sums up my feelings about the film.

I've seen the movie some days ago. Good, but not amazing. Something bothered me in the way the characters and the current setting were introduced.

EDIT :

 timetowaste85 wrote:
It was a damn good movie. You didn't like it? Boohoo for you. I don't care. I'm glad Abrams directed it, I'm glad he brought it back to the feel of the original trilogy, and I'm glad it's able to pull at emotional heartstrings the way it does. I sincerely don't care if a small handful of people online I'll never meet find ways to be offended by it.

I challenge you to do better.

So basically "I liked it, I don't want to hear your arguments as to why you didn't, and don't criticize it if you can't do better" ?

Welp.

 nullBolt wrote:
Just rewatched it and some things were really glaring.


- Why does Finn not speak with an Imperial (ie British) accent? Literally every other person in the First Order does and we can see he was raised by the First Order from birth.

Stormtroopers have always spoken with American accents.

I'm a huge star war fan but I've always viewed them as being B quality film with A+ quality special effects. They are a bit campy and soap opera like, having plot holes out the wazoo but I still love them as that's part of what defines their character.

Several of my friends really hated the new movie and I can understand some of the points they make, but they also seem to be taking their appreciation and fandom of the previous movies a bit too seriously. You would think that the originals were filmed in solid gold they way they speak about them, they've built those movies up in their mind so much that there's no equal nor can there ever be (despite the fact there's plenty of holes in them) They complain about it being too much like ANH, but if it'd been something else they'd also complain about it as well as they just can't accept anything that deviates from the originals and by large anything that's created new and whole cloth is going to deviate simply by virtue of being new.

They wanted to see the old characters which are there, yet were unhappy with how they were portrayed. Well unless you have them do exactly the same thing as before then they are going to be different than they were 30-35 years ago. People and characters change as they age and mature, it wouldn't make sense for them to all be at the same point they'd left off at.

Also when people complain about it being an ANH rehash I'm kinda like so what? There's two whole generations of kids that have been born since the originals and many of them haven't seen the originals let alone the prequels. We grew up on the originals and love it but it a 40 year old film that not everyone in the younger generation appreciates in the same light. I think TFA recaptures many of those core elements that made the audience fall for the originals so hard and does so in a fashion that draws in the younger audience. It's not a complete remake of the originals nor will it replace them but it has the core star wars look, feel and much of the magic. It certainly conveys what star wars is about to a new audience.

That may cause some of the old die hard fans to get all pissy but even with the best of efforts I don't think there'd be any way you can please them 100%. However you can bring some of that original star wars magic back for the new fans. If they hadn't re-achieved that magic connection with the audience it wouldn't be crushing box office records with people waiting in lines and seeing it 6-7 times much like what happened when ANH released.

Yeah there's some failings, but star wars has always been B grade stuff, it was intentionally formatted as such by Lucas because he wanted to recreate classic B grade serials. It's meant for people to embrace some of that light hearted fun and unfortunately a lot of die hards take star wars as super-serious-business to the point they rail against it. There's certainly elements that I thought could have been better in TFA, but I think they nailed the essential criteria to make it feel at home as a "proper" star wars film and that's what the majority of the audience is responding so favorably to. (despite some of the misses)

I also think that TFA will likely grow on quite a few depending on what we see in next film. If it comes to light that Rey has previous force training and is part of the force strong family it does go a long way towards explaining her abilities. We tend to color our memories of the original trilogy because we combine them all together in our mind as a single story, TFA is just the opening chapters of the new arc so it won't have all the answers immediately. I think there's a lot more to the backstory and characters headed our way.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Man, I need a bottle of aspirin after reading all the "Mary Sue" and "SJW" crap. Everyone (with intelligence) was offended by the prequel. JJ knew this, and built an homage to ANH to get people back into the feel of Star Wars. So what happens? A bunch of people who want to stand out as snowflakes say it's "too similar to ANH". Well, good. It's what JJ needed to do to rope everyone back in. The next two can build, but this was most certainly a movie designed to pull back the loved series. If you don't like that, well, bully for you.

It's been pointed out countless times how bad things happen to Rey. So she beats Kylo after he's been stabbed, shot, and had to do something that emotionally wrecked him. He was honest-he didn't know if he had the strength. Problem was, he meant the strength to kill. Han thought the exact opposite, and thought it was the strength to return home and give up the dark. It ate him up. And he got beaten by the end of it. Rey and Luke both, at the end of their respective first movies, called upon the Force and did something extreme. But they both had to be saved countless times by others.

It was a damn good movie. You didn't like it? Boohoo for you. I don't care. I'm glad Abrams directed it, I'm glad he brought it back to the feel of the original trilogy, and I'm glad it's able to pull at emotional heartstrings the way it does. I sincerely don't care if a small handful of people online I'll never meet find ways to be offended by it.

I challenge you to do better.

The insinuation that this movie needed to be a copycat of A New Hope in order to get people back into Star Wars is ridiculous. You know what would have worked just as well or even better? Actually giving us a continuation of the story without needing to invent the Resistance or the First Order to reset the status quo to what it was in A New Hope. I signed up for a SEQUEL when I bought my admission, not a remake. I'm not going to go into the whole Kylo vs. Rey thing, as that's been focused on more than anything else in this thread. You're either okay with it or you're not. It was most assuredly not a damn good movie, and for reasons other than how much it borrows from the first film.

Furthermore, coming into a discussion forum and telling people you don't care if they disagree with you is... well, do you understand what a discussion forum is for? Your position for everyone that disagrees with you is "bully for you," whatever the feth that means. Why don't you come back when you're actually ready to discuss things.

Everybody is always talking about the seductive power of the dark side of the force. I think TFA really did a good job addressing the seductive power of rebellion.

I'd be lying if I said I hadn't enjoyed the star wars universe over the years, especially the video games, but in recent years, I've become uneasy at where things are going, not just with star wars, but with western culture in general.

I remember reading something about Friedrich Nietzsche warning of the decline in culture if mass commercialization of culture was allowed to take off.

For me, Star Wars epitomises that. It is now in the hands of a ruthless, corporate company, that would happily churn out a star wars film every month, regardless of quality, if they thought it would make money.

In film-making, there isn't a year that goes by when we don't see a re-make or a reboot od some super-hero or zombie franchise.

Consequently, we get risk free film-making, and it points to the general decline in the quality of film-making that somebody like JJ Abrams gets licence to churn out average quality, and gets lauded for it.

In literature, the decline also continues, and in music, well, let's not go there

Star Wars, in a lot of ways, is a good thing, but if I'm watching the news, and the story's about trouble in Africa, and it gets interrupted to go live from a cinema where some fans have dressed up as a star destroyer or something, then you know something's wrong...

I think you might be reading a bit too much into it but...at least we got a Nietzsche shout out!

 Alpharius wrote:
I think you might be reading a bit too much into it but...at least we got a Nietzsche shout out!

Agreed.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

It's been pointed out countless times how bad things happen to Rey. So she beats Kylo after he's been stabbed, shot, and had to do something that emotionally wrecked him. He was honest-he didn't know if he had the strength. Problem was, he meant the strength to kill. Han thought the exact opposite, and thought it was the strength to return home and give up the dark. It ate him up. And he got beaten by the end of it. Rey and Luke both, at the end of their respective first movies, called upon the Force and did something extreme. But they both had to be saved countless times by others.

Firstly, other than a Bow caster shot to the side, Kylo is pretty fine, he is pretty handily dominating the fight with Finn and Rey, up until "the force" happens and allows her to beat back the guy who was overpowering her up until that point.

He's also solved his emotional turmoil for this movie, do I have the strength to kill Han... turns out I do, now to go recapture the girl who escaped.

I wouldn't call bullseyeing wamp rats extreme, whereas the pretty sudden reversal at the end of the fight is more extreme of the two. Especially when she's been trying to poke him with the lightsaber tip the whole fight.

I'd like to know which scenes you view as her being saved by others (so as not to get a you're forgetting this comment).

For me, she saves herself (or doesn't require Finn to be there [hence the "let go of my hand comments"]) in the Tie Airstrike/ Bombing run.

She pilots the Falcon, well enough for Finn to eventually shoot one of the Tie's. Then sets up the 'shot'.

Chases the tentacle thing.

Shoots several Storm troopers after running away from scary visions, and saves BB-8.

Nobody saves her from her first encounter with Kylo Ren.

She free's herself from being captured.

Finn steps in for the last combat while she's unconscious.

She wakes up, get's overpowered (see stood with your back to a cliff, and trying not to have a lightsaber pushed into your throat) until "Join me", then the force happens and she wins the fight.

I'm willing to accept other interpretations and scene's I have missed out, or calls of unfairly assessing those scenes.

Also I thoroughly enjoyed the movie, it felt like Star Wars, unlike the Hobbit, which (while technically good) lacked (for me) any of the soul that LOTR had, and I judged that as harshly as I judged Force Awakens.

 Alpharius wrote:
I think you might be reading a bit too much into it but...at least we got a Nietzsche shout out!

Actually, the whole idea of Jedi and Sith battling each other for mastery over the force, fits in with the Nietzsche theme of will to power, so it's relevant to the discussion

But the point that I was going to make, is this:

Years ago, there was an argument (one which I agreed with) that blockbuster films like star wars, or best sellers like Harry Potter, allowed the studios and publishing houses the financial freedom to take a risk on a director who wanted to make a 4 hour 1920s German new wave film, or write a 5000 page biography about Senator X from Washington who was senator from 1801-1805 or something like that.

Niche areas were supported, but sadly these days, that no longer seems to happen any more.

 LethalShade wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
It was a damn good movie. You didn't like it? Boohoo for you. I don't care. I'm glad Abrams directed it, I'm glad he brought it back to the feel of the original trilogy, and I'm glad it's able to pull at emotional heartstrings the way it does. I sincerely don't care if a small handful of people online I'll never meet find ways to be offended by it.

I challenge you to do better.

So basically "I liked it, I don't want to hear your arguments as to why you didn't, and don't criticize it if you can't do better" ?

Welp.

Which would be valid criticism of my post if the following bullet points hadn't been hashed out over the past 30 pages of this thread, and refuted each time:
•Rey is a Mary Sue
•Rey is a girl, and can't be as good as boys
•Finn is black and can't be the hero
•It's too much like A New Hope

The first and last points were refuted in just about every other post, and the two middle points were mostly made by one racist/sexist person on here, who has no supporters. Thirty pages, and these have been the majority of criticisms against the movie. So yes, I find those criticisms invalid. Because they're incredibly pointless and only prove that you can't make everybody happy. So I'm glad he made 93% of the fans out there happy, and essentially told the other 7% to 'slag off' by not making the movie those 7% wanted (who would have likely bitched how it would have turned out anyway).

I'm sorry, when was your 4th bullet point refuted? Even the people who enjoyed the movie said it borrows too much from A New Hope. Being okay with the fact that it's a lazy remake of A New Hope is not the same thing as refuting that it's a lazy remake of A New Hope. As to the FIRST bullet point, I think it's much safer to say there are differing interpretations than outright refuting it. Most of the explanations for why she can do all the things she does boil down to personal rationalizations like "oh she had sufficient training when she was a toddler which allowed her to kick Ren's ass, reverse a mind probe, and get a stronger Force pull on her lightsaber than Ren does." You can call that refuting if you want, but that's incredibly generous if you do so.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I'm sorry, when was your 4th bullet point refuted? Even the people who enjoyed the movie said it borrows too much from A New Hope. Being okay with the fact that it's a lazy remake of A New Hope is not the same thing as refuting that it's a lazy remake of A New Hope. As to the FIRST bullet point, I think it's much safer to say there are differing interpretations than outright refuting it. Most of the explanations for why she can do all the things she does boil down to personal rationalizations like "oh she had sufficient training when she was a toddler which allowed her to kick Ren's ass, reverse a mind probe, and get a stronger Force pull on her lightsaber than Ren does." You can call that refuting if you want, but that's incredibly generous if you do so.

Mmm, Toddler Jedi training, kills any interest in the character I have.

Rey does anything can literally be explained by it. It's offensive to my immersion in character development.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I'm sorry, when was your 4th bullet point refuted? Even the people who enjoyed the movie said it borrows too much from A New Hope. Being okay with the fact that it's a lazy remake of A New Hope is not the same thing as refuting that it's a lazy remake of A New Hope. As to the FIRST bullet point, I think it's much safer to say there are differing interpretations than outright refuting it. Most of the explanations for why she can do all the things she does boil down to personal rationalizations like "oh she had sufficient training when she was a toddler which allowed her to kick Ren's ass, reverse a mind probe, and get a stronger Force pull on her lightsaber than Ren does." You can call that refuting if you want, but that's incredibly generous if you do so.

Mmm, Toddler Jedi training, kills any interest in the character I have.

Rey does anything can literally be explained by it. It's offensive to my immersion in character development.

Totally agreed.

Star Wars has always had a bunch of items that force you to suspend disbelief. This just carries on the tradition. Anyway, I'm actually letting that go as my last point. I'm likely already going to get in trouble for having said that I'm ignoring the four points I listed in bullet format as "reasonable arguments". If somebody has a legit complaint outside of those 4 items (and yes, there were points outside of those), I'd be totally willing to have a rational discussion about them. But these four? Nope.

And for the record; I think TFA was more an adaptation of the entire original trilogy, not just ANH. It allowed us to get back into the story that is so loved, while allowing 8 and 9 to stretch out. And I only see this as a positive thing. Not a negative. Not even slightly.

- using the force without training? Stupid.
- using the force because she grew up as a Jedi? Stupid.

 d-usa wrote:
- using the force without training? Stupid.
- using the force because she grew up as a Jedi? Stupid.

"Grew Up" as a Jedi (if it was the case) is a stretch though. I mean not many people reference growing up and think about their toddler years. Would you call that growing up or a small phase of your life? I know I say I was born in Rotorua (not true, but I spent my first 3 years there) but grew up in Paraparaumu because thats where I spent my life growing. She grew up as a slum scavenger, not a Jedi.

 d-usa wrote:
- using the force without training? Stupid.
- using the force because she grew up as a Jedi? Stupid.

I thought she grew up on Not Tatooine, and thought the force was a legend?

But I forget, the touching of the lightsaber unlocked those memories for her.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
- using the force without training? Stupid.
- using the force because she grew up as a Jedi? Stupid.

"Grew Up" as a Jedi (if it was the case) is a stretch though. I mean not many people reference growing up and think about their toddler years. Would you call that growing up or a small phase of your life? I know I say I was born in Rotorua (not true, but I spent my first 3 years there) but grew up in Paraparaumu because thats where I spent my life growing. She grew up as a slum scavenger, not a Jedi.

We could talk about the huge impact training like that, or anything really, has during the formative years of your cognitive and psychosocial development from birth to 6 years. But it's Star Wars, so even though it can very well explain these things it shouldn't be needed when watching a space fantasy flick where Darth Vader was born of a virgin.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 LethalShade wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
It was a damn good movie. You didn't like it? Boohoo for you. I don't care. I'm glad Abrams directed it, I'm glad he brought it back to the feel of the original trilogy, and I'm glad it's able to pull at emotional heartstrings the way it does. I sincerely don't care if a small handful of people online I'll never meet find ways to be offended by it.

I challenge you to do better.

So basically "I liked it, I don't want to hear your arguments as to why you didn't, and don't criticize it if you can't do better" ?

Welp.

Which would be valid criticism of my post if the following bullet points hadn't been hashed out over the past 30 pages of this thread, and refuted each time:
•Rey is a Mary Sue
•Rey is a girl, and can't be as good as boys
•Finn is black and can't be the hero
•It's too much like A New Hope

The first and last points were refuted in just about every other post, and the two middle points were mostly made by one racist/sexist person on here, who has no supporters. Thirty pages, and these have been the majority of criticisms against the movie. So yes, I find those criticisms invalid. Because they're incredibly pointless and only prove that you can't make everybody happy. So I'm glad he made 93% of the fans out there happy, and essentially told the other 7% to 'slag off' by not making the movie those 7% wanted (who would have likely bitched how it would have turned out anyway).

Well, my main criticism against the movie are the pace and character development, which feels completely rushed. Finn's actor really overplay nearly everything, and his character feels kinda fake. For an ex brainwashed Stormtrooper, I think he should've been a bit more cold and professional, at least in the beginning. He went from emotionless automaton to average teenager in an action movie in 10 minutes. The original concept of a traumatized Stormtrooper was really interesting, though.

 d-usa wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
- using the force without training? Stupid.
- using the force because she grew up as a Jedi? Stupid.

"Grew Up" as a Jedi (if it was the case) is a stretch though. I mean not many people reference growing up and think about their toddler years. Would you call that growing up or a small phase of your life? I know I say I was born in Rotorua (not true, but I spent my first 3 years there) but grew up in Paraparaumu because thats where I spent my life growing. She grew up as a slum scavenger, not a Jedi.

We could talk about the huge impact training like that, or anything really, has during the formative years of your cognitive and psychosocial development from birth to 6 years. But it's Star Wars, so even though it can very well explain these things it shouldn't be needed when watching a space fantasy flick where Darth Vader was born of a virgin.

Yes, that is because the prequels suck. I was hoping the newer movies would move past this.

 d-usa wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
- using the force without training? Stupid.
- using the force because she grew up as a Jedi? Stupid.

"Grew Up" as a Jedi (if it was the case) is a stretch though. I mean not many people reference growing up and think about their toddler years. Would you call that growing up or a small phase of your life? I know I say I was born in Rotorua (not true, but I spent my first 3 years there) but grew up in Paraparaumu because thats where I spent my life growing. She grew up as a slum scavenger, not a Jedi.

We could talk about the huge impact training like that, or anything really, has during the formative years of your cognitive and psychosocial development from birth to 6 years. But it's Star Wars, so even though it can very well explain these things it shouldn't be needed when watching a space fantasy flick where Darth Vader was born of a virgin.

One's a Jesus reference, the other is I may have been toddler trained, then left on Not Tatooine for however long, and up until meeting Han Solo, thought the Force was a legend.

Strangely enough I have less issue with chosen one/ prophecy/ high midichlorians, then I do with toddler training save me now.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I'm sorry, when was your 4th bullet point refuted? Even the people who enjoyed the movie said it borrows too much from A New Hope. Being okay with the fact that it's a lazy remake of A New Hope is not the same thing as refuting that it's a lazy remake of A New Hope. As to the FIRST bullet point, I think it's much safer to say there are differing interpretations than outright refuting it. Most of the explanations for why she can do all the things she does boil down to personal rationalizations like "oh she had sufficient training when she was a toddler which allowed her to kick Ren's ass, reverse a mind probe, and get a stronger Force pull on her lightsaber than Ren does." You can call that refuting if you want, but that's incredibly generous if you do so.

I have refuted that claim. AS there are alot of differences between this movie and the new hope. Mostly in terms of major plot points. Old Mentor does not teach rey the force, They are not traveling to rescue someone the whole time. They go to the star killer only when they know how to destroy it, at the same time they want to save Rey and destroy the star killer.

Ren is not as terrifying or as powerful as Vader was. He is more..... Second in command to the General. Ren is kind of a push over honestly.

"Grew Up" as a Jedi (if it was the case) is a stretch though. I mean not many people reference growing up and think about their toddler years. Would you call that growing up or a small phase of your life? I know I say I was born in Rotorua (not true, but I spent my first 3 years there) but grew up in Paraparaumu because thats where I spent my life growing. She grew up as a slum scavenger, not a Jedi.

SHe could of been a youngling or could of had memories given to her when she touched that lightsaber and had all those memories pour straight into her.

She grew up as a scanvenger but she might of been influenced by the force for all we know.
'

Lets go through this......

Post 2015/12/27 14:00:20 Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !

timetowaste85 wrote:

It's been pointed out countless times how bad things happen to Rey. So she beats Kylo after he's been stabbed, shot, and had to do something that emotionally wrecked him. He was honest-he didn't know if he had the strength. Problem was, he meant the strength to kill. Han thought the exact opposite, and thought it was the strength to return home and give up the dark. It ate him up. And he got beaten by the end of it. Rey and Luke both, at the end of their respective first movies, called upon the Force and did something extreme. But they both had to be saved countless times by others.

Firstly, other than a Bow caster shot to the side, Kylo is pretty fine, he is pretty handily dominating the fight with Finn and Rey, up until "the force" happens and allows her to beat back the guy who was overpowering her up until that point.

Kind of. Hes not as powerful and or as strong as he usually was. But ever since he was wounded he was probably slower and alot more aggressive and thus reckless because of his emotion distraught.

He's also solved his emotional turmoil for this movie, do I have the strength to kill Han... turns out I do, now to go recapture the girl who escaped.

Technically no we can see that the character is clearly struggling and was having inner turmoil

I wouldn't call bullseyeing wamp rats extreme, whereas the pretty sudden reversal at the end of the fight is more extreme of the two. Especially when she's been trying to poke him with the lightsaber tip the whole fight.

Yeah and the fact that she was clearly copying him the whole time

I'd like to know which scenes you view as her being saved by others (so as not to get a you're forgetting this comment).

There are quite a few. The one time she had to rely on others to save her from storm troopers, that one time that she had to be rescued from Ren and that other time she basically got swarmed by troopers, she had to be saved by Finn and Han.

For me, she saves herself (or doesn't require Finn to be there [hence the "let go of my hand comments"]) in the Tie Airstrike/ Bombing run.

She pilots the Falcon, well enough for Finn to eventually shoot one of the Tie's. Then sets up the 'shot'.

Chases the tentacle thing.

Shoots several Storm troopers after running away from scary visions, and saves BB-8.

Several? Like two or three of them.

Nobody saves her from her first encounter with Kylo Ren.

She free's herself from being captured.

Finn steps in for the last combat while she's unconscious.

Then isn't he saving her? in that instance?

She wakes up, get's overpowered (see stood with your back to a cliff, and trying not to have a lightsaber pushed into your throat) until "Join me", then the force happens and she wins the fight.

She wins a fight barely. After several almost fatal deaths. She isn't using the force just stabbing around the place. And she isn't really using a lightsaber, shes sorta.. Just stabbing.

I'm willing to accept other interpretations and scene's I have missed out, or calls of unfairly assessing those scenes.

I can concur with that!

Also I thoroughly enjoyed the movie, it felt like Star Wars, unlike the Hobbit, which (while technically good) lacked (for me) any of the soul that LOTR had, and I judged that as harshly as I judged Force Awakens.

The memes have begun.

Hide your children.

http://imgur.com/gallery/aGsKI

 Ashiraya wrote:
The memes have begun.

Hide your children.

http://imgur.com/gallery/aGsKI

Ok, that one Storm trooper is pretty bad ass.
I like how he throws down his gear, like "Look at that traitorous jedi-wannabe fether! I'm tired of his gak! I'm gonna beat his ass!"