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And so we begin the cycle anew...

 insaniak wrote:
To be fair, she showed that she was better in an actual fight than a guy who had just been shot in the side with a high-powered crossbow...

Except she's not better than him. When it's just a matter of skills, she is pushed back, flees and ends up on a precipice.

Once the Force comes into it, then she's clearly stronger.

Which is fine, but it goes to proving that when it's a matter of Force powers, Rey is superior.

 Kojiro wrote:

 paulson games wrote:

Mjolnir only serves Thor.

The one ring chose Bilbo,

The sword in the stone chose Arthur.

Etc, etc.

Weapons or items of great destiny and fate choose who will wield them as they recognize their true master. They are not ordinary items and often have a will and intelligence of their own. As the flashback scene shows there's clearly something going on with Luke's lightsaber and that is has a chosen connection to Rey. It's hard to say if the light saber is just acting as some sort of force conduit for Luke's powers or stored memories but it's clearly something unique and contains a power that Ren wants for himself.

The problem with all these examples- and the wand- is that all of the above are all magical items, imbued with their own powers and even some form of intelligence. Lightsabers on the other hand are purely technological devices. They could be mass produced with nothing more than the right facilities. They're no more special than blasters in that regard. Now it could be that JJ has decided to put magic items into Star Wars and the saber now has some say in who wields it. That could be the case. But it's simply easier for me to believe that Rey is just consistent in being more powerful than Ren.

Light sabers are powered by Kyber crystals, which are very attuned to the force. So there *may* be some argument made that they are magical in a sense. That's not a JJ thing and has been a part of Star Wars canon in varying degrees for quite a while now.

 d-usa wrote:
[Light sabers are powered by Kyber crystals, which are very attuned to the force. So there *may* be some argument made that they are magical in a sense. That's not a JJ thing and has been a part of Star Wars canon in varying degrees for quite a while now.

Yup... They've never really gone into it in the movies, but there has always been an implication (touched on in some of the EU material) that the Force is required to build a lightsabre correctly, and that they function better in the hands of a force-user to whom they are attuned.


Star Wars has also previously included references to physical things being imbued more strongly with the Force, promoting visions and the like (remember Luke's failure in the tree!).


Whether or not the saber actually chose her, it's possible that her latent Force power just triggered something like that from it, or that this triggering is a clue as to who she really is...

 d-usa wrote:
Light sabers are powered by Kyber crystals, which are very attuned to the force. So there *may* be some argument made that they are magical in a sense. That's not a JJ thing and has been a part of Star Wars canon in varying degrees for quite a while now.

That's a good point actually, I forgot that. Though if my memory serves each crystal is attuned to a specific user, at least according to Clone Wars. Though now we're left wondering why Anakin's crystal- in the saber of youngling slaughter- calls to Rey instead of Kylo.

 Kojiro wrote:
Once the Force comes into it, then she's clearly stronger..

...at that specific moment in time, sure.

A lot had been going on up to that point, and there's the element of surprise to contend with as well. It doesn't mean that a similar fight the next day would have gone the same way, once Ren was actually expecting her to counter with the Force.

 Kojiro wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Light sabers are powered by Kyber crystals, which are very attuned to the force. So there *may* be some argument made that they are magical in a sense. That's not a JJ thing and has been a part of Star Wars canon in varying degrees for quite a while now.

That's a good point actually, I forgot that. Though if my memory serves each crystal is attuned to a specific user, at least according to Clone Wars. Though now we're left wondering why Anakin's crystal- in the saber of youngling slaughter- calls to Rey instead of Kylo.

Could be as simple as her being (possibly) the daughter of Luke and it having been used by both Anakin and Luke.

Purely speculative stuff here on my part:

It belonged to Anakin, then Luke, now it is calling to her.

- Anakin: started out good, went to the dark, then back to the light at the last moment.
- Luke: started out good, but while he was still in the possession of the light saber he was starting to go down the path of Vader to a small degree. So maybe the potential was there and depending on who you talk to Luke did fall, for a short moment, to the dark and managed to return to the light. That was with his second light saber though, and I will fully admit that it is also a theory that is very much debatable.
- Rey: Is she starting out good as well? Will she be pulled to the dark like Anakin and maybe Luke? Will she, and maybe her and Kylo Ren together, be the mythical "balance".

 Compel wrote:
And so we begin the cycle anew...

Its the circle of life!!!!!!

Don't you see nerd rage has no bounds but the circle.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Don't you see nerd rage has no bounds but the circle.

There's no rage here. Just people discussing a movie in a discussion thread about the movie.

Feel free to unsubscribe if all you have to contribute is derogatory comments about the posters.

 Kojiro wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Don't you see nerd rage has no bounds but the circle.

There's no rage here. Just people discussing a movie in a discussion thread about the movie.

Feel free to unsubscribe if all you have to contribute is derogatory comments about the posters.

Agree (since I'm one of the main people on the other side).

I think for the most part we have moved past the whole "this movie is awesome/this movie isn't awesome" side of things and I feel like we are now on the "Just nerds nitpicking a movie apart" side of things.

 Kojiro wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Don't you see nerd rage has no bounds but the circle.

There's no rage here. Just people discussing a movie in a discussion thread about the movie.

Feel free to unsubscribe if all you have to contribute is derogatory comments about the posters.

Not talking about you lot.

The rage goes circles but this goes circle round and round.

The derogatoriness is my bad, as I can be quite condescending sometimes

I could point to certain scenes I thought were shot poorly.

Though I noticed the lack of lens flares. How few of are there. I mean come on JJ Where are my lens flares? (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/needs-moar-lens-flare)


Though personally if we were talking about the best scenes?

The one thing I loved was the lighting for the Ren and Han Solo part. Where Han Solo was basically the last light for Kylo Ren.

I found it very interesting the way it was shot. None of that stupid lens flares. But very much dimmed and put down to the degree that was very suitable and very starwaresque

 Asherian Command wrote:

I found it very interesting the way it was shot. None of that stupid lens flares. But very much dimmed and put down to the degree that was very suitable and very starwaresque

I was trying to remember exactly what it looked like when I watched it because I don't think I really noticed it. But I have read that as it kept on getting darker and darker as they faced each other and the sun was getting sucked dry, and that the last "light" went away right as he killed Han.

 Kojiro wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Light sabers are powered by Kyber crystals, which are very attuned to the force. So there *may* be some argument made that they are magical in a sense. That's not a JJ thing and has been a part of Star Wars canon in varying degrees for quite a while now.

That's a good point actually, I forgot that. Though if my memory serves each crystal is attuned to a specific user, at least according to Clone Wars. Though now we're left wondering why Anakin's crystal- in the saber of youngling slaughter- calls to Rey instead of Kylo.

Its more like your sabre crystal is your crystal at that moment. It might not be your crystal in the future, you might have a new one you are attuned to. Or someone may become attuned to your old crystal.

Anakin's sabre wasn't his for very long once he turned to the dark side. Once he turned he lost it to Obi-wan only a few days later. The vast majority of his dark side time was spent with his red ligthsabre he used as Darth Vader.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Light sabers are powered by Kyber crystals, which are very attuned to the force. So there *may* be some argument made that they are magical in a sense. That's not a JJ thing and has been a part of Star Wars canon in varying degrees for quite a while now.

That's a good point actually, I forgot that. Though if my memory serves each crystal is attuned to a specific user, at least according to Clone Wars. Though now we're left wondering why Anakin's crystal- in the saber of youngling slaughter- calls to Rey instead of Kylo.

Its more like your sabre crystal is your crystal at that moment. It might not be your crystal in the future, you might have a new one you are attuned to. Or someone may become attuned to your old crystal.

Anakin's sabre wasn't his for very long once he turned to the dark side. Once he turned he lost it to Obi-wan only a few days later. The vast majority of his dark side time was spent with his red ligthsabre he used as Darth Vader.

I didn't think about that, which makes my previous theory more interesting to me IMO.

Anakin - Good Jedi, "I must save the ones I love", gets hand with light saber lobbed off
Luke - Good Jedi, "I must save my friends", gets hand with light saber lobbed off
Rey - Good Jedi?....

Now that you mention it, that is definitely a pattern emerging there.

Also, Anakin technically lost his arm twice. Once to Douku and again the Obi-wan.

 Kojiro wrote:
The problem with all these examples- and the wand- is that all of the above are all magical items, imbued with their own powers and even some form of intelligence. Lightsabers on the other hand are purely technological devices. They could be mass produced with nothing more than the right facilities. They're no more special than blasters in that regard. Now it could be that JJ has decided to put magic items into Star Wars and the saber now has some say in who wields it. That could be the case. But it's simply easier for me to believe that Rey is just consistent in being more powerful than Ren.

It clearly is magical somehow, because Rey gets an overwhelming vision just from briefly touching it. And everything about that scene suggests that it is calling out to her, and Finn is only temporarily carrying it until Rey decides to accept its destiny. Whether that's the lightsaber itself having a connection to her, the force guiding her through the lightsaber, etc, there's obviously something happening with it that goes beyond the mere physical object.

 Kojiro wrote:

 paulson games wrote:

Mjolnir only serves Thor.

The one ring chose Bilbo,

The sword in the stone chose Arthur.

Etc, etc.

Weapons or items of great destiny and fate choose who will wield them as they recognize their true master. They are not ordinary items and often have a will and intelligence of their own. As the flashback scene shows there's clearly something going on with Luke's lightsaber and that is has a chosen connection to Rey. It's hard to say if the light saber is just acting as some sort of force conduit for Luke's powers or stored memories but it's clearly something unique and contains a power that Ren wants for himself.

The problem with all these examples- and the wand- is that all of the above are all magical items, imbued with their own powers and even some form of intelligence. Lightsabers on the other hand are purely technological devices. They could be mass produced with nothing more than the right facilities. They're no more special than blasters in that regard. Now it could be that JJ has decided to put magic items into Star Wars and the saber now has some say in who wields it. That could be the case. But it's simply easier for me to believe that Rey is just consistent in being more powerful than Ren.

I'd say that the force is pretty magical (and pure fantasy type element), sure lightsabers are a mechanical construct but they channel the force and are attuned to it in ways that no blaster comes close to. Lightsabers are Lucas's mirror of the mystic connection samurai are said to have with their sword. In crude technical terms it is a weapon for killing, but in samurai tradition it is more accurately a reflection of the wielders soul. You can hammer out steel swords that may function and look like a katana, but for a true samurai blade it's the mystic connection to heart of it's samurai wielder that makes it much more than a mere piece of steel. The katana is understood as an extension of their soul and they are one with it, that connection does not exist with other crude weapons like a spear, bow, or gun.

In the books and episodes of clone wars sabers are shown to be constructed by using the force to build it, and at least with Jedi each blade is uniquely attuned to them. In order for the crystals to be aligned correctly within the inner housing there's some sort of special matrix they need to be arranged in and it can only be done via force manipulation, so they can't just be stamped out by machines. The blade color, it's length and shape are all reflective of the personality of the Jedi that creates it, which is why there are so many variations despite sharing the same basic construction components. Some lightsabers even help channel a Jedi's other force powers when they meditate with it and make those powers stronger. Once they are made any person can pick one up and swing it around but they cannot use it the same manner that Jedi do as there's not a force attunement connection for non-Jedi.

In several of the RPG materials lightsabers in the hands of non Jedi can be wielded but there's a cap on the damage they can inflict and their abilities, Jedi however can do all sorts of additional damage and other effects by channeling their force abilities through the lightsaber.

It's repeatedly shown throughout the movies and the books that the force is pretty darn magical, it may not be called "magic" but it allows for impossible things to be done on the basis of faith alone. Deflect blaster bolts back at the users, shoot things without it being seen within eyesight, lift and manipulate giant objects, shoot lightning, read minds, feel the presence of others across vast distances, commune with the dead, communicate with a very distant past and even pass memories between people. None of those things are able to be done by any of the technology within the universe, these are done solely by faith in the force. Faith by default is the anti-thesis of science as it is not defined or constrained by physical laws.


Also another note is that not all Jedi/Sith are connected to the force in the same manner so their powers and abilities vary greatly in strength. Vader was great with force choking and throwing things but he was never shown to use force lightning nor could he conceal his darkside presence the way the Emperor could. Despite being Obi-Wan's student Luke isn't quite as good with the Jedi mind trick, and it fails against Jabba. Some Jedi are more gifted in metal powers while others are more combat focused. Lucas very much modeled the Jedi concept after Samurai and Zen philosophical elements in which each being is unique and walks their own path to enlightenment, he depiction of enlightenment is being in unison with the force. As much as you might try to copy another's actions and path it will never produce the same result, you can only walk your own path and master things by your own experience.

So it's a flawed assumption to state that when a Jedi or Sith spends an equal amount of time training as other students they should all have the same level. Each students access to the force and their strength with it is unique. Some are strong with it and some are weak despite their best efforts. There are some that need years to master a skill and others that it comes naturally to without any training, as each walk a path that's unique to them. Sometimes there might be a Micheal Jordan of the force like Luke or Anakin that just have an oversized portion of raw force talent that no amount of training can match.

Sometimes abilities manifest on their own based on the needs of the students. Luke for instance pulls his lightsaber to himself while frozen in the Wampa cave well before he leaves for force training with Yoda. This isn't something he trained with Obi-Wan to do in the previous film, he just somehow figures it out when he was under pressure. When he makes the death star kill shot it's likewise not something he specifically trained for, but he does it while he's "in the zone" and channeling force ability on the fly.

Assuming that Rey and Ren have specific levels of power/ability based solely on age or experience isn't something that is accurate as there's no single path that's set in stone for how one gains their force powers or their strength.



Also look at the difference in the lightsaber Ren has and it's reflection on his character, as a claymore it's a weapon of imposing brute force powerful but lacks finesse and control. Even the edge of the blade is is jagged and breaking off into bits of flame as he has little self control, his focus is just barely contained and his confidence waivers a lot. Contrast that to Vader's blade in the older movies or even Luke's which is very tight and refined, Vader was driven by hate but he was much more in control of it and very focused and confident. Darth Maul was a sadistic creature that lived solely for the kill, the double blade representing his unique level of menace and savagery. There's plenty of character insight with the the blades when it's understood as a reflection of the owner.

I also suspect that's why the Emperor never draws a saber in the OT as his attunement to the dark side is so absolute he uses force in a pure form (lightning) and doesn't even need a blade to channel it. Yoda likewise never uses a blade in the OT

 paulson games wrote:
Also look at the difference in the lightsaber Ren has and it's reflection on his character, as a claymore it's a weapon of imposing brute force powerful but lacks finesse and control. Even the edge of the blade is is jagged and breaking off into bits of flame as he has little self control, his focus is just barely contained and his confidence waivers a lot. Contrast that to Vader's blade in the older movies or even Luke's which is very tight and refined, Vader was driven by hate but he was much more in control of it and very focused and confident. Darth Maul was a sadistic creature that lived solely for the kill, the double blade representing his unique level of menace and depravity. There's plenty of character insight with the the blades when it's understood as a reflection of the owner.

A good point, and it is something Star Wars games etc have been trying to deal with. People have been trying to find some meaning in the blade colors (the Sith red was at some point just a result of them using synthetic crystals, right?) and other features for as long as we've had Star Wars films.

Seeing the lightsabers as samurai swords can certainly work, but it is still somewhat dependent on not knowing what samurai were before becoming glorified bureaucrats and police for the Tokugawa Shogunate. A samurai before 1600 would usually downplay his sword skills, because horsemanship and archery were his main selling points. Telling people he was a good swordsman meant he also told them he was a terrible tactician and crappy archer. Hmm... but then, that's what the Jedi were too in the prequels. An order of warrior monks that did practice dangerous combat skills and other esoteric arts, but not entirely in touch with changes in galactic weapons technology or combat doctrine.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Now that you mention it, that is definitely a pattern emerging there.

Also, Anakin technically lost his arm twice. Once to Douku and again the Obi-wan.

Obi wan went all out and scored 3/4 limbs lol.

Don't forget luke cut off vader's hand making anakin/vader lose 3 limbs.

Vader lost one arm to Dooku. Obi Wan claimed the rest of his limbs.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Now that you mention it, that is definitely a pattern emerging there.

Also, Anakin technically lost his arm twice. Once to Douku and again to Luke.

Fixed that for ya. Obi Wan cuts off both legs and the left arm. He still has his mechanical right arm at the end of III. I just watched it the night before VII came out. Luke cuts the metal one off in RotJ.

Just a note, Ren is 30 years old (the actor is 31). Rey is teenager at 19 (actress is 23).

The speculation is that something happened when Ren was 14- the same age that his grandfather built his first saber and became a padawan.

It's one reason Rey directly defeating Ren is a terrible pacing choice- there's nowhere to go that builds tension between the two. Rey has already demonstrated her natural abilities put her firmly ahead of Ren, in terms of force powers (mental probing and telekinesis) and in terms of saber skills. Both are now set for some training, but where Ren is just completing his, Rey is only just beginning. He's got a small amount left to go while she's got everything. She will improve far more than he will simply because she has more to improve.

The bad guys are supposed to be threats to the heroes. Right now the bad guy is playing catch up.

Everyone keeps just glancing over the fact that Ren was literally shot by a bowcaster five minutes before that fight. Throughout the entire movie they keep hinting at how powerful Chewie's crossbow is, including the shot in Starkiller Base when it sends a trooper flying across the hallway and the scene where it blows up two troopers at once outside Maz's place. Ren took a direct shot to the stomach. And then, Finn lands a solid light-saber hit on Ren's light-saber arm.

 d-usa wrote:


Light sabers are powered by Kyber crystals, which are very attuned to the force. So there *may* be some argument made that they are magical in a sense. That's not a JJ thing and has been a part of Star Wars canon in varying degrees for quite a while now.

The color, on the other hand, plays no role whatsoever as Light Saber Crystals are easily interchangeable. They do posses unique powers, though.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 d-usa wrote:


Light sabers are powered by Kyber crystals, which are very attuned to the force. So there *may* be some argument made that they are magical in a sense. That's not a JJ thing and has been a part of Star Wars canon in varying degrees for quite a while now.

The color, on the other hand, plays no role whatsoever as Light Saber Crystals are easily interchangeable. They do posses unique powers, though.

Actually, unless thats on the new official website, none of that is true. The books don't exist, only the movies and that was never stated. Nothing about crystals blah blah blah. All your nerd rage are belong to us! Your secrets shall be reviled!

Kyber crystals are a thing in the new Star Wars: Rebels tv show though. - Which continues on from 'The Clone Wars' - which I believe has a bunch of EU-esque stuff in it.

 Compel wrote:
Kyber crystals are a thing in the new Star Wars: Rebels tv show though. - Which continues on from 'The Clone Wars' - which I believe has a bunch of EU-esque stuff in it.

I stand corrected. Can all your secrets still are belong to us?

I think Ren had some fairly decent armour on (like Vader had) to be fair. Also, according to the book for Episode Vii, Ren's light sabre crystal was cracked and is barely containing the power, which is why his sabre looks the way it does. The cross guard is redirecting some of that energy as well.

There are some people thinking that the cracked crystal came from Vader's light saber, which sounds plausible enough.

Which could explain why Kylo Ren would want an undamaged crystal used by Vader, and maybe setup more story down the line.

How would a crystal survive DeathStar II blowing up?