Why Rhino's armour so weak?

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**Stormwall**

Because they hide in METAALL BAWKSES!

**RazgrizOne**

DA KOWARDZ. DA FUUULS.

**Furyou Miko**

RazgrizOne wrote:
I did. And I learned something.
Regarding Rhino buff, fast is enough IMO since it is meant to be an APC. Anyway I made this thread to get some explanations and that worked very well.

Special mention to the joke about sisters of battle seen latter in the thread.

well, actually that bit's kind of true... the Sisters do have the DT everyone in this thread wants. The Repressor is FAV13, 10 transport, 6 fire points, with a storm bolter, a pintle heavy flamer, smoke laucnhers and a dozer blade as standard.

**RazgrizOne**

FAV 13 for a rhino would be too much. I guess the Repressor is designed to fight in close quarters and must be armoured in consequences. Fast USR for the Rhino would suit it well after what has been said here. Even a +1 FAV would not be a shame.

**carldooley**

play Blood Angels?

**casvalremdeikun**

carldooley wrote:
play Blood Angels?

pretty much. Want Fast Rhino-Pattern stuff, play Blood Angels, that is their shtick. I don't know if making the Rhino an Assault Vehicle would be the right way to go, though it isn't like it would be a big boost (marines aren't a stellar assault army). I wouldn't mind the Rhino's ability to repair Immobilized being extended to Hull Points. They should be damn near impossible to keep down.

**master of ordinance**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
carldooley wrote:
play Blood Angels?
pretty much. Want Fast Rhino-Pattern stuff, play Blood Angels, that is their shtick. I don't know if making the Rhino an Assault Vehicle would be the right way to go, though it isn't like it would be a big boost (marines aren't a stellar assault army). I wouldn't mind the Rhino's ability to repair Immobilized being extended to Hull Points. They should be damn near impossible to keep down.

##Once again, just so long as you dont mind the Leman Russ and Chimera gaining these abilities

**jwr**

RazgrizOne wrote:

Anyway, I can get why Rhino don't have heavier armor but I can't stop thinking that it must be a hard tool to use in a "real 40k" battlefield. I mean, okay, they're fast but Space Marines don't always choose to attack first or don't always choose the terrain which they will fight on. If they don't, they'll most likely meet the shortcomings of this tank sooner or later, which must be dangerous for their own safety. All operational conditions in the galaxy don't allow lightning ground assaults - I think especially about the very end of the Siege of Vraks, when Red Scorpions must attack on foot because all of their transports are shattered - and, as we said, LR are not easily deployed. So, what's the alternative? Razorbacks? Meh. All I want to say is a more powerful IFV could make perfect sense (and would be fun to play) for SM, since they can actually serve as shock troops, just like someone said previously. I don't want to make them even more Mary-Sue-er they can be, but I'm just pointing surprising IMO.

It fullfills its purpose, getting Astartes in position without having to make armor saves against low-S fire. In a "real 40k" battle, they are covered from artillery fragments, sniper fire, antipersonnel mines, all those things which wouldn't wipe out a squad but would whittle down their numbers before they can manuever into bolter range. How many casualties does a Rhino have to prevent before it has made it's points back? The outright purpose of the Rhino is to soak fire. It's nothing more than extra ablative wounds. Those Astartes are now alive to add their bolter fire to that of their brothers', which further weakens the enemy before the assault, which is now done with a larger squad, which ends CC faster, preserving more Astartes. In that "real 40k" battlefield, what's the cost of some servitor repair labor compared to the 2 or 3 Astartes it will save?

**Ashiraya**

master of ordinance wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
carldooley wrote:
play Blood Angels?
pretty much. Want Fast Rhino-Pattern stuff, play Blood Angels, that is their shtick. I don't know if making the Rhino an Assault Vehicle would be the right way to go, though it isn't like it would be a big boost (marines aren't a stellar assault army). I wouldn't mind the Rhino's ability to repair Immobilized being extended to Hull Points. They should be damn near impossible to keep down.
##Once again, just so long as you dont mind the Leman Russ and Chimera gaining these abilities

Why?

**SGTPozy**

master of ordinance wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
carldooley wrote:
play Blood Angels?
pretty much. Want Fast Rhino-Pattern stuff, play Blood Angels, that is their shtick. I don't know if making the Rhino an Assault Vehicle would be the right way to go, though it isn't like it would be a big boost (marines aren't a stellar assault army). I wouldn't mind the Rhino's ability to repair Immobilized being extended to Hull Points. They should be damn near impossible to keep down.
##Once again, just so long as you dont mind the Leman Russ and Chimera gaining these abilities

Only if you don't mind the same changes happening to Drop Pods; becoming fast vehicles and better armour

**JinxDragon**

If people want to change the Rules because 'It makes more sense for an Rhino's to have better armour' then other Vehicles should be granted similar concessions.
For Example: I could never understand why the Tau, a pure shooting army, would have an APC that lacks Fire-Points....

**Desubot**

You dont need amazing armor when the guys inside are already in amazing armor.

as to game wise..

it was fine till spam had to ruin it.

(Its still immune to small arms mostly. and it takes relatively dedicated anti tank to even pen it.)

**Ashiraya**

Never before have I seen someone call S6 'relatively dedicated anti-tank'.

**Desubot**

Ashiraya wrote:
Never before have I seen someone call S6 'relatively dedicated anti-tank'.

Are we talking about that nonsense spam that shouldn't exist in the first place again?

**casvalremdeikun**

master of ordinance wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
carldooley wrote:
play Blood Angels?
pretty much. Want Fast Rhino-Pattern stuff, play Blood Angels, that is their shtick. I don't know if making the Rhino an Assault Vehicle would be the right way to go, though it isn't like it would be a big boost (marines aren't a stellar assault army). I wouldn't mind the Rhino's ability to repair Immobilized being extended to Hull Points. They should be damn near impossible to keep down.
##Once again, just so long as you dont mind the Leman Russ and Chimera gaining these abilities

Do Leman Russ and Chimeras have the ability to repair their own Immobilized results currently?

**Ashiraya**

Desubot wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Never before have I seen someone call S6 'relatively dedicated anti-tank'.

Are we talking about that nonsense spam that shouldn't exist in the first place again?

Assault Cannons are S6. Are they nonsense spam?

Snazzguns?

Venom cannons?

**master of ordinance**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
carldooley wrote:
play Blood Angels?
pretty much. Want Fast Rhino-Pattern stuff, play Blood Angels, that is their shtick. I don't know if making the Rhino an Assault Vehicle would be the right way to go, though it isn't like it would be a big boost (marines aren't a stellar assault army). I wouldn't mind the Rhino's ability to repair Immobilized being extended to Hull Points. They should be damn near impossible to keep down.
##Once again, just so long as you dont mind the Leman Russ and Chimera gaining these abilities
Do Leman Russ and Chimeras have the ability to repair their own Immobilized results currently?

Yes, if you take a 5 point upgrade.

Ashiraya wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
carldooley wrote:
play Blood Angels?
pretty much. Want Fast Rhino-Pattern stuff, play Blood Angels, that is their shtick. I don't know if making the Rhino an Assault Vehicle would be the right way to go, though it isn't like it would be a big boost (marines aren't a stellar assault army). I wouldn't mind the Rhino's ability to repair Immobilized being extended to Hull Points. They should be damn near impossible to keep down.
##Once again, just so long as you dont mind the Leman Russ and Chimera gaining these abilities

Why?

Because the Rhino is already really good and having an APC that can just keep on getting back up even in the face of dedicated AT fire is just a stupid concept when the main Heavy Tank of the universe is so easily put down.

**RazgrizOne**

The argument "rhino is just a box to protect SM from small arms fire" is kinda weird since everybody here agree to say Rhino actually die from this precise kind of weapons. In order to bring SM at bolter range, perhaps it is necessary to SURVIVE small/medium caliber fire. And actually, Rhino is not armoured enough to do so. It is not even a question of being an IFV, it's just a matter of simply doing its APC work well. I'm talking from a crunch pov btw and I just want to precise I'm not here to beg for SM improvements.

**Bobthehero**

Chimera can have a FW upgrade that lets them ignore immobilization on a 4+

**master of ordinance**

RazgrizOne wrote:
The argument "rhino is just a box to protect SM from small arms fire" is kinda weird since everybody here agree to say Rhino actually die from this precise kind of weapons. In order to bring SM at bolter range, perhaps it is necessary to SURVIVE small/medium caliber fire. And actually, Rhino is not armoured enough to do so. It is not even a question of being an IFV, it's just a matter of simply doing its APC work well.

Actually only 2 such standard small arms weapons are capable of damaging a Rhino from the front and sides, the Pulse Rifle which is pretty nasty and the Gauss family which to be fair do the exact same thing to a Heavy Tank anyway.

And if you want to be immune to all small arms fire all round then I demand rear armour 12 on all my Leman Russ as the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

**Ashiraya**

master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

In addition, the argument that the SM won't need an armoured tank because they themselves are armoured is flawed. They are tough, yes, but they need a tough tank too as they inevitably will attract a lot of fire.

Having high-quality overcharged engines to compensate for the weight makes sense.

**Desubot**

Ashiraya wrote:
Desubot wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Never before have I seen someone call S6 'relatively dedicated anti-tank'.

Are we talking about that nonsense spam that shouldn't exist in the first place again?

Assault Cannons are S6. Are they nonsense spam?

Snazzguns?

Venom cannons?

When they are spammed sure.

But in reality. a few assault cannons or what not will probably not kill a rhino out right. it should take several turns for one to kill it. which im fine with since its not mulching down my infantry.

(actually im completely forgetting if eldar scat bike spam was st5 or 6)

**Furyou Miko**

RazgrizOne wrote:FAV 13 for a rhino would be too much. I guess the Repressor is designed to fight in close quarters and must be armoured in consequences. Fast USR for the Rhino would suit it well after what has been said here. Even a +1 FAV would not be a shame.

Pretty much - the Repressor is originally an Arbites vehicle designed for deployment in cities, where the oncoming fire is so much denser due to the reduced firing lanes.

Ashiraya wrote:Never before have I seen someone call S6 'relatively dedicated anti-tank'.

I don't call needing 5s 'easy', either...

**master of ordinance**

Ashiraya wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Not really, small arms fire would - and should - just bounce right off. So if we have to remain vulnerable then so do you. No exceptions.

**keezus**

IIRC... since all IoM technology is based of STC templates, and then adapted for use... I believe that the Rhino is the way it is because it is adapted industrial equipment, used for its ruggedness and capacity rather than combat prowess.

**Desubot**

master of ordinance wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Not really, small arms fire would - and should - just bounce right off. So if we have to remain vulnerable then so do you. No exceptions.

To be fair the lemon has a giant engine cover on top back that is perforated which would make an excellent target.

**Ashiraya**

master of ordinance wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Not really, small arms fire would - and should - just bounce right off. So if we have to remain vulnerable then so do you. No exceptions.

If you're calling bolters shooting your exposed engine 'dying to small arms', then I have bad news for you. Bolters are explosive rounds. It's like having a rapid barrage of small missiles hitting your engine.

**JinxDragon**

I've always found it interesting just what people define as 'small arms' in this game.

It is almost like people forget some weapons are designed to take out 'heavy infantry,' a type of weapon designed to take out infantry wearing armour resistant to standard 'small arms.' While Warhammer 40k does the concept poorly, I don't like the all or nothing Armour Saves system, the narrative behind these weapons should allow for them to damage lightly-armoured vehicles. After all, they are still weapon systems designed to punch through protective armour, so it stands to reason they should be able to punch through lightly armoured vehicles as well.

I will agree with the people who say this type of weapon has become far to common in the game, but that is an entirely different problem.

**Bobthehero**

Ashiraya wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Bolters are .75 cal weapons.

The LAV has a 1.0 cal chaingun that would struggle to glance tank armor, ev n with specialized ammo. And just because it explodes doesn't mean it's good to destroy vehicles.

**kronk**

Small arms is a relative term.

A lasrifle is a small arms.

So are these!