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Hey guys,

after rebuild a bit my last list and test it a bit, I decided to make a new one with all the knowledge and experience I'm getting from my latest fights. Here is the result:

HQ
Khorne Heretek archdemagogue with plasma pistol and melta bomb, 4 disciples with plasmagun and autocannon, caparace armour: 150p
Chimera with m.training, autocannon, heavy bolter: 70p

TROOPS
Renegade infantery platoon with heretek bonus: 170p
Renegade infantery squad with demagogue, vox caster, meltagun, m.training:: 60p
Renegade infantery squad with 2 grenade launcher, m.training: 50p
Renegade infantery squad with 2 flamers, m.training: 50p

Renegade infantery platoon with heretek bonus: 170p
Renegade infantery squad with demagogue, vox caster, meltagun, m.training:: 60p
Renegade infantery squad with 2 grenade launcher, m.training: 50p
Renegade infantery squad with 2 flamers, m.training: 50p

FAST ATTACK
Valkyrie with lascannon, m.training: 135p

ELITE
Renegade blood slaughterer with impaler: 135p

Renegade chaos spawn: 55p

Renegade Nurgle 3 ogryns squad with caparace armour: 240p

HEAVY SUPPORT
Renegade rapier laser destroyer battery; 3 rapier batteries with extra crewman: 69p

Defiler: 195p

Renegade heavy ordnance with 2 earthshaker cannon: 110p

I think this time ogryns inside a Valkyrie can give me something to take care behind the enemy lines. This time I prefered smaller infantery units running across the table instead of huge ones because they basically die at similar speed. What's your opinion?

Wow, no one said anything about my latest list. Is that bad?

I think a factor might be that Renegades and Heretics is a lesser played force, since it's FW centric.

I am wondering though why you have grande launchers on the infantry. They're really not all that impressive and could be better used to max out your flamers for the platoon, or a weapons with some more punch (melta's or plasma).

Also, for the command squad, why an AC in the squad? Just for drive-by in the Chimera? Because the array of weapons in your squads seem to lack threat range focus. A lot of 12" to 24" to 48" etc. Either the AC will never be used to its full point potential, or the plasma pistol will never get in range.

I think it's a great list. Demagogue is an IC so can pick a squad to hide in, usually artillery, clam claw. So at least he can shoot at something nasty if it's getting too close to those earthshakers for instance.

Grenade launcher is still high strength at 24" and doesn't gets hot like plasma, nor as expensive for such an expendable troopers. People will get saves somehow anyway against AP2, at least it will wound most of the time and can threaten AV12.

Are the spawn legal? You need a mutant overlords or covenant of tzeentch. Unless this is a vraks list?

As far as I read, you can use them as troops if your warlord is covenant of Tzentch but they are Elite choice too on the rulebook, so I assume you can put them in both Troops and Elite slots if you are covenant of Tzentch.

It does say right under their entry "May only be selected through use of the Master of Renegades special rule", so I would say that they are only available with the Covenant of Tzeentch on the Arch Demagogue or via the 'Mutant Overlord' devotion, though I will admit it is a little unclear, as they both use spawn as a non-compulsory troops choice.

You can't take spawn as elites (it says right there in their entry)

You have to pay for the heretek bonus per unit in a platoon. It is in the Heretek rules you pay per unit.

Defilers and Ogryns are awful. Do not take them

Yeah you are right, then I'll just probably pay the heretek bonus for the demagogue's squads. Same about the spawns.

I suppose then I should change a bit the list to exchange spawns for a 3 sentinel squad with heavy flamers, for example. What's wrong with ogryns and defilers? For m, at least, defilers works pretty well.

It's a lot of points for something av12. Leman Russ or a blood slaughtered would probably provide more value.

Not sure on the ogryns. Really want dedicated assault units to have an assault vehicle, which isn't an option.

Drop the Ogryns, as has been mentioned they're not a good call. Not because they're terrible (a big fully kitted squad of the guys is pretty terrifying), but because they're insanely over-costed. I think a fully tricked out squad of them is around 1000 points, and that's just silly.

Not sure why no one else mentioned it, but you have Militia Training on your infantry squads.. Which are equipped with flamers and grenade launchers. Ignoring the questionable viability of grenade launchers, the strength of your infantry squads is not their lasguns. If they don't have plasma / melta, don't waste the points. Especially if they have bloody flamers.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Drop the Ogryns, as has been mentioned they're not a good call. Not because they're terrible (a big fully kitted squad of the guys is pretty terrifying), but because they're insanely over-costed. I think a fully tricked out squad of them is around 1000 points, and that's just silly.

Not sure why no one else mentioned it, but you have Militia Training on your infantry squads.. Which are equipped with flamers and grenade launchers. Ignoring the questionable viability of grenade launchers, the strength of your infantry squads is not their lasguns. If they don't have plasma / melta, don't waste the points. Especially if they have bloody flamers.

The WS3 will give them a boost against the many WS3 walkers out there with their krak grenades (and melta bombs on champions)

I'm still not sold on Grenade Launchers. If you like they way they play or the aesthetic, by all means go for it. It's just that on the TT they almost always underperform vs. a melta/plasma/lasgun/etc. point for point.

Get's Hot can be a pain, but with Militia Training you'll at least be hitting more shots on average and hopefully saving your 1's if it happens.

I think plasma on those guys it's basiclly a huge waste of points due their lack of armour. About the grenade launcher, they are just cheap and sometimes useful and doesn't need to get too much close.. What do you recommend me to put on valkyrie then? I was using it to drop a squad of veterans with plasma/meltaguns with a enforcer cadre with plasma pistol, but they aren't enough tough to survive against anything after they deep strike even if they are wearing caparace armour.

About the defiler, I will still keep it due it works for me. I agree it's overcosted but I'm used to him.

Maybe I should put some krak grenades and heretek bonus on squads or just I can spend some points on sentinels. Something like that:

HQ
Khorne Heretek archdemagogue with plasma pistol and melta bomb, 4 disciples with plasmagun and autocannon, caparace armour: 150p
Chimera with m.training, autocannon, heavy bolter: 70p


TROOPS
Renegade infantery platoon: 210p
Renegade infantery squad with demagogue, vox caster, meltagun, m.training, krak grenades, heretek bonus: 80p
Renegade infantery squad with 2 grenade launcher, m.training, krak grenades, heretek bonus: 70p
Renegade infantery squad with 2 flamers, krak grenades, heretek bonus: 60p

Renegade infantery platoon: 210p
Renegade infantery squad with demagogue, vox caster, meltagun, m.training, krak grenades, heretek bonus: 80p
Renegade infantery squad with 2 grenade launcher, m.training, krak grenades, heretek bonus: 70p
Renegade infantery squad with 2 flamers, krak grenades, heretek bonus: 60p

Renegade veteran 10 men squad with caparace armour, 2 plasma guns: 135p --> I'm not pretty convinced with this squad in the valkyrie due what I said

FAST ATTACK
Valkyrie with lascannon, m.training: 135p

Renegade 4 sentinels squad with heavy flamers: 80p

ELITE
Renegade blood slaughterer with impaler: 135p


HEAVY SUPPORT
Renegade rapier laser destroyer battery; 3 rapier batteries with extra crewman: 69p

Defiler: 195p

Renegade heavy ordnance with 2 earthshaker cannon: 110p

Judging from the point costs it appears that you have given several Disciples in the Command Squad Plasmaguns. This is not legal.

"One other Disciple not already upgraded may replace their autogun with a:..."

You should really give your Rapier laser destroyers Militia Training. They need BS3 to be good (and then they are really, really good).

If you insist on keeping the Defiler there's not much I can do to change your mind, but I understand your reasons for wanting it as it looks really cool (my first CSM model some 12 years ago).

The Valkyrie can be good as a last-moment objective grabber (put the cheapest ObSec unit you can in it, fly around until turn 5 and drop down on an objective - assuming you play with Eternal War objectives). Otherwise I would just drop it alltogether.

Thudd Guns and/or Wyverns are some of the best units available to Renegades, and I noticed that you don't have any. Personally I would drop the Valk for these.

5 points per model to double the strength of a lasgun at 24 inches isn't bad, lets your cheap squads at least able to take wounds from monstrous creatures and some armour. Plasma is way too expensive I think on platoons unless you can justify it somehow.

Intercessor wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
Drop the Ogryns, as has been mentioned they're not a good call. Not because they're terrible (a big fully kitted squad of the guys is pretty terrifying), but because they're insanely over-costed. I think a fully tricked out squad of them is around 1000 points, and that's just silly.

Not sure why no one else mentioned it, but you have Militia Training on your infantry squads.. Which are equipped with flamers and grenade launchers. Ignoring the questionable viability of grenade launchers, the strength of your infantry squads is not their lasguns. If they don't have plasma / melta, don't waste the points. Especially if they have bloody flamers.

The WS3 will give them a boost against the many WS3 walkers out there with their krak grenades (and melta bombs on champions)

Take a look at the To Hit WS table in the BRB. There's almost no difference between WS2 and WS3.

Basically, with WS3, you'll be hitting WS2 on a 3 rather than a four, and WS5-6 on a 4 rather than a 5. Given most Walkers are WS4 (with a few being 3), the benefit is marginal. Unless you're expecting to run into truly mind-boggling amounts of kanz or frequently run up against Eldar who like to commit their gargantuan creature shooting platforms to melee combat against 40 point squads.. It won't do anything for you. Especially considering it doesn't upgrade the Demagogue / champion's WS. He'll have 3 regardless.

You're also not taking advantage of how the upgrades in the book work. You're paying 20 points to give a 5 man command squad a 4+ save.. Ouch, that's not fun. But if you had a 15 man command squad you'd still pay 20 points to give them all a 4+ save. Renegades and Heretics is very much about mass upgrading units. You pay 30% of an infantry squad's base cost to give them BS and WS3, when they have random leadership and no armor to speak of. But you pay less than 10% of the units cost to do the same thing if it's a big blob. You need the upgraded squads to be big to justify the cost.

With regards to putting plasma / melta on your infantry squads, yes it does amp up the cost considerably. But the benefit is that you don't pay for things you don't need. I.E. you can afford to kit some squads out with expensive melta and plasma not just because the squad itself is so cheap, but because you don't have to pay for useless armor saves and extra BS on squads which aren't important. That's the beauty of the Renegades and Heretics list.

At the end of the day, I'd say that this list just lacks focus and doesn't play to your armies strengths. You've got 60 guardsmen with questionable leadership coupled with having no staying power or actual damage output. There's a smattering of light armor, just enough to give enemy AT some targets to play with but none of which is actually tough. A single flyer which doesn't pack much of a punch packed with a somewhat gimpy "special operations" squad, the combination of which chews up almost 20% of your total points. There's just enough infantry to justify some light anti-horde power, but not enough to make a few tactical squads and a thunderfire cannon start to sweat from mass of targets. The list has a few vehicles and some infantry. It's a little shooty but has a tiny bit of chop, and doesn't have the heft to make either work.

The only part of the list which stands out to me as being even slightly menacing is the heavy support. Earthshaker arty carriages are cheap and scary, and rapier batteries will seriously put the hurt on some armor / touch targets. But there's so little sunk into the section and it has no (competent) support to speak of. So it's still not going to be much of a problem.

I'd really recommend deciding what you want to do with the list / a theme you want to play to, and building up from that. An artillery line which pummels the foe into submission whilst a solid core of expendable ground forces push forwards? A gigantic mass of screaming heretics who plough forwards without any concern for what happens to them, drowning the enemy in bodies? An elite strike force which outflanks tank and infantry hunting sentinels whilst dropping down some well equipped and well trained soldiers from the sky (probably the worst call for renegades and heretics)? Renegades and Heretics aren't Eldar unfortunately. You can't just take a random smattering of insanely well costed and strong units to just throw at the enemy and have special rules and super stats carry the day. You need to have a focus, and then overwhelm your enemy with it. Or if you're trying to build TAC you need to stick to what's efficient and strong, which this list certainly does not.

Uhmm I got it. The problem is to have all those models

I know very well this army is based on number but sometimes it's just impossible to put all those models on the table and play confortably. That's why I'm looking in some kind of balance between number and efficiency.

I appreciate all the post guys!

I've just recently decided to start collecting for an R&H list and have a question. RaW, do the enforcers cost per model you purchase? Its worded as 1 cadre = 25 points and may contain 1-5 enforcers with no mention of an upgrade cost per model. Similar thing for the psyker coven.

As for your list are you finding the rapier laser to be really good? The only heavy support I have right now is a leman russ but I am planning to buy a big gun or 3 in my next shopping trip.

Enforcers are 25 points each max five unless arch heretic revolutionary (then max ten)

They're BS4 and plasma pistols only cost ten points for them, so they work great as plasma pistol gunslingers in a squad with covenant of Tzeentch. Since they have two wounds it really helps mitigate gets hot, especially with carapace armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rapier is a really good unit for Heretics but always remember it cannot shoot flyers. I like Zetas list but if you are going to invest in heavy support decide whether you want to be mobile (tanks or support squads with covenant of Tzeentch) or static (earthshalers, medusa siege guns, heavy mortar etc)

Well, I use sometimes one or 2 enforcers with caparace armour, meltabombs and plasma pistol and they cost 45p each. I think they are quite cheap and helpful and helps you to take some extra hits on the squad.

About the rapiers, for me they are the best anti-tank weapon in this army and I think it's the best to have at least one squad of them. If you look for something mixed (anti-infantery and anti-vehicle) then it's better you take just heavy guns like I show in my first on second list.