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 Envihon wrote:
It being experimental rule set is one thing that is off putting and I wouldn't go as far to say that the Quad Mortar is OP, underpriced but not OP seeing as it has some good hard counters like grav and plasma weaponry that would destroy a line of these.

You talk about no artillery having relentless and that they are designed to sit back and shoot. Something I agree with but that is my main point of why the second firing profile doesn't do it for me. If you put it back where it can act like artillery and not a heavy weapons team, you negate the whole reason why you are saying this is good. You put it in the position of a heavy weapons team and open yourself up to a lot fire from your opponent to take out them out before they have had a chance to do anything.

I would have to agree with Quickjager, you may have found a way to spam this unit but can those lists do anything in an actual game/tournament? You are getting a lot of firepower but what can it actually do in objective based games? I just doubt the tactical edge here in an actual game and I definitely see opponents able to dance around this unit easily. The best one is your last list which isn't the Gladius Strike Force. You only took the full company by taking two Demi-Companies, you need at least one of the auxiliary formations to make it a Gladius Strike Force which will eat at those points even more.

That first list doesn't put much on the table and I can see opponents being able to deal with it quite easily especially in the face of Eldar and Necrons.

I guess at this point, I would want to see some play testing. What we are arguing right now is simple numbers and list building. Actual games have shown whether some of these units may seem really awesome on paper but in practice, they didn't live up because they didn't function like we thought they were going to function.

The most I can say is that now the BA, DA and SW have some good artillery to take if they show choose while SM players will be going back and forth which is better.

It is a gladius strike force - it has 3 scout units for the auxillary formation.

Think of it as a heavy weapons team then, with T7, more wounds, 3 times as many shots and tank hunter. Everything that can kill it reliably costs far more than it.

Ive demonstrated a TON of lists where you can spam it and have an incredibly decent list to run rings around your opponent not the other way around. With plenty of OS. In fact I purposefully included lots of OS§s in every list as I had a feeling you'd try and say that was a weakness.

It has FAR BETTER range than ANY AT unit which even comes slightly close to its damage per point. I've demonstrated this repeatedly.


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DarthDiggler wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ignores cover low ap weapons don't mean anything against bikes and jetbikes with a 3+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Id rather have 20 st5 ap5 barrage blasts than 12 st5 ap5 ignores cover barrage blasts against 3+ bikes and jetbikes.

Go tell that to the Ravenwing. 2+ rerollable cover saves everywhere. If you can ignore their cover saves you can't kill any of them.

Typhon in one list, tigurius in another. There are plenty of ways around that. So because of 1 army that the TFC is better against compared to every other single army the quad mortar is better against that makes the TFC better?

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
It being experimental rule set is one thing that is off putting and I wouldn't go as far to say that the Quad Mortar is OP, underpriced but not OP seeing as it has some good hard counters like grav and plasma weaponry that would destroy a line of these.

You talk about no artillery having relentless and that they are designed to sit back and shoot. Something I agree with but that is my main point of why the second firing profile doesn't do it for me. If you put it back where it can act like artillery and not a heavy weapons team, you negate the whole reason why you are saying this is good. You put it in the position of a heavy weapons team and open yourself up to a lot fire from your opponent to take out them out before they have had a chance to do anything.

I would have to agree with Quickjager, you may have found a way to spam this unit but can those lists do anything in an actual game/tournament? You are getting a lot of firepower but what can it actually do in objective based games? I just doubt the tactical edge here in an actual game and I definitely see opponents able to dance around this unit easily. The best one is your last list which isn't the Gladius Strike Force. You only took the full company by taking two Demi-Companies, you need at least one of the auxiliary formations to make it a Gladius Strike Force which will eat at those points even more.

That first list doesn't put much on the table and I can see opponents being able to deal with it quite easily especially in the face of Eldar and Necrons.

I guess at this point, I would want to see some play testing. What we are arguing right now is simple numbers and list building. Actual games have shown whether some of these units may seem really awesome on paper but in practice, they didn't live up because they didn't function like we thought they were going to function.

The most I can say is that now the BA, DA and SW have some good artillery to take if they show choose while SM players will be going back and forth which is better.

It is a gladius strike force - it has 3 scout units.

Think of it as a heavy weapons team then, with T7, more wounds, 3 times as many shots and tank hunter. Everything that can kill it reliably costs far more than it.

Ive demonstrated a TON of lists where you can spam it and have an incredibly decent list to run rings around your opponent not the other way around. With plenty of OS. In fact I purposefully included lots of OD in every list as I had a feeling you'd try and say that was a weakness.

It has FAR BETTER range than ANY AT unit which even comes slightly close to its damage per point. I've demonstrated this repeatedly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthDiggler wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ignores cover low ap weapons don't mean anything against bikes and jetbikes with a 3+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Id rather have 20 st5 ap5 barrage blasts than 12 st5 ap5 ignores cover barrage blasts against 3+ bikes and jetbikes.

Go tell that to the Ravenwing. 2+ rerollable cover saves everywhere. If you can ignore their cover saves you can't kill any of them.

Typhon in one list, tigurius in another. There are plenty of ways around that. So because of 1 army that the TFC is better against compared to every other single army the quad bolter is better against that makes the TFC better?

I missed the 10th Company Task Force in the long list of things so I could see some potential but all the minimum squads with only light upgrades still makes me hesitant. You definitely have MSU vibe going with it but the Devastators are under utilized and there is no dedicated heavy weapons besides the Quad Mortars themselves. I could see an army with a lot of vehicles being the weakness of that army. Yes, S8 A4 can do a lot but it has no way to explode things that aren't open topped. One thing that makes other heavy weapons that are dedicated anti-vehicle is AP2 and AP1 to get that explodes result and allow them to move on. I have Tank Hunter on my Devastators and understand the value of Sunder but without a high AP value, there is a chance that you don't do anything to a high AV vehicle. And before you talk about the 6s being able to glance something to death with multiple S8 shots, Grav weapons with a grav amp need 6s to do anything to vehicles and even with massed shots like that, those 6s aren't guaranteed so that is why I don't see it as reliable. I think a properly equipped AM that is heavy into the vehicles could eat those lists alive because of the amount that AM can counter the artillery with. Yes, TFC can be said to have the same weakness but I wouldn't be spamming TFC to make a more well rounded list.

And there are way more armies that rely on cover saves than just the Ravenwing, that's just one example. But let us do another scenario, what about Necrons? Yes the Quad Mortar has have more killing power but what about the utility the TFC brings with the Dangerous Terrain? I don't try to out kill Necrons...with Reanimation being a straight save now and the Decurion making that 4+, I have stopped trying to just out kill a Necron army. To beat Necrons, you have to play the mission better, how is this done? By stopping them from getting to objectives. Enter the TFC that can severely hinder the movement of a Necron army and maybe even stop a few vehicles in their tracks allowing you to do what you need to do to snatch objectives and points. The Quad Mortar simply can't do that so as far as utility goes, the TFC wins major points in that respect.

With reroll its an 11 out of 36 chance to glance av14, with 24 shots that's an average of 4.9hps stripped from an av14 vehicle (at bs4), 8.9hps from av13, 12 from av12, 14.2 from av11 and 15.6 from av10. That's from 6 of these not 9 too. Rerolls make a huge difference (almost double) when you need 6's. Ap1 or 2 is far less reliable than simply stripping hull points (unless you have a special rule to reroll on the pen chart like the Xiphon).
The gladius also has 10 melta, 16 tl assault cannon shots and 2 tl lascannon shots as well as 3 melta bombs and 78 krak nades. That should be enough for almost any mech once you also count the 24 shots coming from the quad mortars. The quad mortars alone will be taking out 3 av13 or worse tanks a turn out of cover.
I've personally found as Renegades that Artillery is almost brokenly durable when in cover and en mass, especially how cheap it is in comparison to anything else for that durability and firepower.
I see your point in making units make difficult terrain tests, but its not usually going to be more advantageous than simply wiping a unit. Granted Necrons are harder to wipe, and it may play its part there, but where the TFC will make that warrior unit move slower towards an objective, the Quad Mortars have the option to simply erase a Ghost Ark or two, a CCB, a Stalker or even a Monolith, they can also take down a scythe or two if they choose to.

Add in Tiggy for Ignores Cover, Prescience and Rending blasts and it goes from incredibly OP to just silly power levels.

 Envihon wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:


I prefer the quad mortar option personally - although you dont get the funky ammunition it's still pretty hardcore in blast form against infantry and because it's 'barrage', most of the time you ignore cover anyway (centre of the template LOS for it). another point to the quad mortar is you can take multiples in one unit, so if your first shot misses by a lot you can use subsequent hits to creep the templates back to your original target or include other stuff nearby - warp spiders do not like this.
It's direct fire option is okay as a light vehicle killer and the range is not to be sniffed at, but you should really have these behined a building and in cover; direct fire is then for outflanking vehicles like skimmers and walkers that didn't take them out when they came on (or maybe you found a way to give them interceptor?)

.

With the new 7th edition of the Space Marine codex, you can now take 3 TFC in one unit and if you take 3, they get a special rule of getting BS6 for doing it so that is a point in favor for the TFC.

Thats good, but i don't like the way it forces you to have LOS to use it. Can you gain LOS from another unit in the new SM dex?

Poly Ranger wrote:
With reroll its an 11 out of 36 chance to glance av14, with 24 shots that's an average of 4.9hps stripped from an av14 vehicle (at bs4), 8.9hps from av13, 12 from av12, 14.2 from av11 and 15.6 from av10. That's from 6 of these not 9 too. Rerolls make a huge difference (almost double) when you need 6's. Ap1 or 2 is far less reliable than simply stripping hull points (unless you have a special rule to reroll on the pen chart like the Xiphon).
The gladius also has 10 melta, 16 tl assault cannon shots and 2 tl lascannon shots as well as 3 melta bombs and 78 krak nades. That should be enough for almost any mech once you also count the 24 shots coming from the quad mortars. The quad mortars alone will be taking out 3 av13 or worse tanks a turn out of cover.
I've personally found as Renegades that Artillery is almost brokenly durable when in cover and en mass, especially how cheap it is in comparison to anything else for that durability and firepower.
I see your point in making units make difficult terrain tests, but its not usually going to be more advantageous than simply wiping a unit. Granted Necrons are harder to wipe, and it may play its part there, but where the TFC will make that warrior unit move slower towards an objective, the Quad Mortars have the option to simply erase a Ghost Ark or two, a CCB, a Stalker or even a Monolith, they can also take down a scythe or two if they choose to.

Add in Tiggy for Ignores Cover, Prescience and Rending blasts and it goes from incredibly OP to just silly power levels.

To see, this isn't appealing at all to an Imperial Fist. I already have plenty of anti-armor, it's my specialty. I don't need to rely on a mortar with Sunder to get re-rolling armor penetrations and I have weapons that have greater range than 36" to do the job. I want to see what you say put into actiion and that is going to take awhile before I scrap the money I spent on my TFCs in favor of this untested new shiny object. There are a lot of things that look good on paper and I will concede that point to you, your math is solid and taking the Quad Mortar is certainly not a bad choice but it's not enough to convince me that they have a clear tactical advantage over the TFC because there is a lot about the TFC that the Quad Mortar can't touch and as far as full tactical ability, I still think the TFC wins out when you calculate all the advantages it brings. Yes, it is 40 points more expensive per unit but those 40 points aren't wasted and for me, and the Chapter Tactics I use, I don't see the Quad Mortar being as advantageous as the TFC seeing as my weakness is more anti-mass infantry which the TFC is a little more practiced at. Plus, Bolster Defenses is so valuable to have and the extra techmarine that might loose his gun being scooped up by a Stormraven and making it into a flying fortress is just awesome and great unit synergy.

I think you overestimate the killing power it has against Necrons. Even under the most punishing firepower, those guys seem to come out unscathed which is why I have resorted to tactics like using the TFC to slow them down and school them in getting points.

The unit hasn't come out yet so we have no hard data to look at the performance of the Quad Mortar, this is all theory crafting and theory crafting is great and a great place to start selecting good units but testing that is what makes that get solidified. We will see how much it catches on and how much people use them and see how well they fair. I will say this though, one thing I have been considering doing is taking it to smaller games where I can't fit in 3 TFCs. 1250 points and below, the Quad Mortar is a huge attractive unit to take especially if you are used to relying on the TFC which is where I might head to fit the unit into my lower point lists.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
It being experimental rule set is one thing that is off putting and I wouldn't go as far to say that the Quad Mortar is OP, underpriced but not OP seeing as it has some good hard counters like grav and plasma weaponry that would destroy a line of these.

You talk about no artillery having relentless and that they are designed to sit back and shoot. Something I agree with but that is my main point of why the second firing profile doesn't do it for me. If you put it back where it can act like artillery and not a heavy weapons team, you negate the whole reason why you are saying this is good. You put it in the position of a heavy weapons team and open yourself up to a lot fire from your opponent to take out them out before they have had a chance to do anything.

I would have to agree with Quickjager, you may have found a way to spam this unit but can those lists do anything in an actual game/tournament? You are getting a lot of firepower but what can it actually do in objective based games? I just doubt the tactical edge here in an actual game and I definitely see opponents able to dance around this unit easily. The best one is your last list which isn't the Gladius Strike Force. You only took the full company by taking two Demi-Companies, you need at least one of the auxiliary formations to make it a Gladius Strike Force which will eat at those points even more.

That first list doesn't put much on the table and I can see opponents being able to deal with it quite easily especially in the face of Eldar and Necrons.

I guess at this point, I would want to see some play testing. What we are arguing right now is simple numbers and list building. Actual games have shown whether some of these units may seem really awesome on paper but in practice, they didn't live up because they didn't function like we thought they were going to function.

The most I can say is that now the BA, DA and SW have some good artillery to take if they show choose while SM players will be going back and forth which is better.

It is a gladius strike force - it has 3 scout units for the auxillary formation.

Think of it as a heavy weapons team then, with T7, more wounds, 3 times as many shots and tank hunter. Everything that can kill it reliably costs far more than it.

Ive demonstrated a TON of lists where you can spam it and have an incredibly decent list to run rings around your opponent not the other way around. With plenty of OS. In fact I purposefully included lots of OS§s in every list as I had a feeling you'd try and say that was a weakness.

It has FAR BETTER range than ANY AT unit which even comes slightly close to its damage per point. I've demonstrated this repeatedly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthDiggler wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ignores cover low ap weapons don't mean anything against bikes and jetbikes with a 3+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Id rather have 20 st5 ap5 barrage blasts than 12 st5 ap5 ignores cover barrage blasts against 3+ bikes and jetbikes.

Go tell that to the Ravenwing. 2+ rerollable cover saves everywhere. If you can ignore their cover saves you can't kill any of them.

Typhon in one list, tigurius in another. There are plenty of ways around that. So because of 1 army that the TFC is better against compared to every other single army the quad mortar is better against that makes the TFC better?

After Ravenwing, Belakor casting shrouding extends 2+ rerollable cover saves to all the Tzeentch Daemon Princes within 6". No amount of Tigerius warp dice will prevent it and he will be hard pressed to cast perfect timing against a psychic flying circus. Cover saves are a common strategy in 7th edition and TFC's are important weapons to combat that.

In the end though the Quad Morter rules are experimental and in the states I have never seen a tourney, local or national, that has allowed experimental rules. It's like boiler plate in the rules that experimental units are not allowed in tournies. Most people play to practice for a tourney or to play a guy who wants to practice for a tourney so no sense in playing the Quad. Those games where guys just want to have fun and throw dice, well then the spam of the Qiad Mortar will be looked down upon in that scenario. Lose - lose right now for the Mortar I'm afraid.

Let me start by saying this unit is definitely under-costed by a pretty significant margin. It definitely needs to go up in pts by at least 10 pts a rapier (IMO probably +15-20 pts would be about right).

First I think people are undervaluing the TFC significantly, though IMO this would be better compared to an IG thudd gun where the secondary anti tank firing mode is apparently +10 pts. I can also tell a lot of people haven't actually used 36" range direct fire artillery units that much, these weapons tend to spend ~33% of the time with sub optimal targets or have no targets and always have to be placed in board positions with good LoS, upfront, and central. I have significant experience with rapier las destroyers and medusa siege cannons, it is a sad fact that 36" on a mostly immobile platform puts it right in the middle of danger. This means these units are usually the first ones to get charged and thus die much easier than a thudd gun, TFC, etc. Shooting is actually usually not the best way to kill these things. I have killed most of my artillery kills with various morale checks and multi-charges, both of these are much harder to do against a 60" range weapon than a 36" range weapon.

Some of the pros and cons of rapier mortars vs TFC;
TFC
+Ignore cover or Str6 small blasts vs Str 5
+60" range barrage vs 36" range
+Techmarine
+Fortify ruins
+Sv 2+
+flamer, PF, etc. so if you get charged you don't fold to a single khorne dog
+BS5
Rapier Mortar
++40 pts cheaper
++Second firing mode is excellent anti tank (and could actually be good anti flyer with the red hunter CT).

Yes I do recognize that you can give the rapier mortars ignore cover but that is not for sure and it costs almost 3 rapier mortars to have a decent chance to get.

Eh, 36" is fine if your other units are scary too. You put it forward with the guns and gunners mixed together so that he needs to kill a gun and both its gunners before he can shoot at the second. If he shoots your T7 3+ unit that you paid 15 points per wound for (and you had at least token amounts of cover for), you're probably coming out ahead as your other stuff isn't being shot up.

Tbf I use the rapiers regularly too and the 2 downsides you mentioned it had, 36" range and sometimes non optimal targets can be a slight downside of it (I say slight because at 70pts for 3 its no big loss).

However the quad mortar has neither of these downsides you say. Firstly it has a profile for vehicles or infantry so will rarely not have an optimal target. Secondly as Manvas says it is not a huge deal for marine armies to be in 36" range, but also, bigger than this, if it wants to shoot at what the TFC would want to shoot at, it has exactly the same range.

Now the hades rapier which is considered very decent value, with the same stats as the shatter shells but without sunder or the option of blasts is 65pts, so a 20pt increase on the quad mortar means that tank hunter on 4 st8 shots and the option of anti infantry blasts is worth only 15pts.

IMO the quad mortar takes it by quite a way - almost half the price for similar capabilities so great for MSU spam which space marines already do well! Also combines pretty well with red hunters chapter tactics to get skyfire with their 12 str8 sundering shells!

Thunderer slightly take it as a ''shootystar'' type unit. If you're sticking tygurius in the unit then the thunderfires are slightly better since they have more options for their shells, and cost comes into it less if you're already pouring in 300-500 points into a unit.

I also think that thunderfires have a significant benefit through the assault deterrent the techmarines provide. It should be fairly easy to get rid of quad mortars through rapid assault units but 3 overwatching flamers, 3 twin linked plasma pistols and 6 servo arms make even assault termies think twice.

The following list would definitely make me worried!
White Scars GLADIUS:
khan - moondrakken
chaplain – bike, auspex
6 x 5 tacticals – 6 razorbacks, 6 lasplas, 6 meltas
1 x 5 assualt marines – 2 flamers, heavy flamer razorback
attack bike - heavy bolter
2 x 5 devs – 2 razorback, 2 lasplas
5 scouts
5 scouts
5 scouts

Red Hunters CAD:
librarian – bike, auspex
3 bikes – 2 grav guns
3 bikes – 2 grav guns
2 quadmortars
2 quadmortars
2 quadmortars

 Ollivander wrote:
IMO the quad mortar takes it by quite a way - almost half the price for similar capabilities so great for MSU spam which space marines already do well! Also combines pretty well with red hunters chapter tactics to get skyfire with their 12 str8 sundering shells!

Thunderer slightly take it as a ''shootystar'' type unit. If you're sticking tygurius in the unit then the thunderfires are slightly better since they have more options for their shells, and cost comes into it less if you're already pouring in 300-500 points into a unit.

I also think that thunderfires have a significant benefit through the assault deterrent the techmarines provide. It should be fairly easy to get rid of quad mortars through rapid assault units but 3 overwatching flamers, 3 twin linked plasma pistols and 6 servo arms make even assault termies think twice.

The following list would definitely make me worried!
White Scars GLADIUS:
khan - moondrakken
chaplain – bike, auspex
6 x 5 tacticals – 6 razorbacks, 6 lasplas, 6 meltas
1 x 5 assualt marines – 2 flamers, heavy flamer razorback
attack bike - heavy bolter
2 x 5 devs – 2 razorback, 2 lasplas
5 scouts
5 scouts
5 scouts

Red Hunters CAD:
librarian – bike, auspex
3 bikes – 2 grav guns
3 bikes – 2 grav guns
2 quadmortars
2 quadmortars
2 quadmortars

See, the one thing that keeps coming up is taking a certain unit available to a single Chapter, like Tigerious or taking certain Chapter Tactics to make them good. I play Imperial Fists so much of this kind of advice is moot for me and I was looking more for performance overall for all Space Marine Chapters. Also, I have looked around, the Forge World Chapter Tactics have been since taken down and they don't seem to have put them back up.

Poly Ranger wrote:Tbf I use the rapiers regularly too and the 2 downsides you mentioned it had, 36" range and sometimes non optimal targets can be a slight downside of it (I say slight because at 70pts for 3 its no big loss).

You are talking Renegades and Heretics or Vraks. However I would like to call attention to the fact that both those lists can spam cheap area speed bump units which can actually be surprisingly good in melee. Thus you can tie down enemy advances for most of the game. Also 70 pts is a unit of 3 of them. They have about 2x the number of wounds. I see your comparison however in the context of a TFC vs the rapier mortar we are talking about a unit (TFC) which usually clears objectives throughout the board often ones in far corners vs the quad mortar that sacrifices this ability to instead engage the center of the board with a great flexibility of targets.

Poly Ranger wrote:However the quad mortar has neither of these downsides you say. Firstly it has a profile for vehicles or infantry so will rarely not have an optimal target. Secondly as Manvas says it is not a huge deal for marine armies to be in 36" range, but also, bigger than this, if it wants to shoot at what the TFC would want to shoot at, it has exactly the same range.

What targets are the most important? The wraithknight in the middle of the board or the scatbikes skirting just outside 36" range scoring objectives and killing your transports and infantry. SM type armies outside of gladius (which would have to take tax units to get these) don't have the weight of numbers that Renegades of Vraks have to completely block off a line of artillery in the middle of the board. The reason these sorts of units work in IG/Renegades lists is you can actually bubble wrap units entirely outside 18" if you are determined to. Only scout spam has a chance to do this with SM armies...which actually might be pretty good.

Poly Ranger wrote:Now the hades rapier which is considered very decent value, with the same stats as the shatter shells but without sunder or the option of blasts is 65pts, so a 20pt increase on the quad mortar means that tank hunter on 4 st8 shots and the option of anti infantry blasts is worth only 15pts.

I agree this is under costed. I am just trying to point out the tactical problems with this and give people perspective. BTW I also think spamming the hades rapier is a recipe for loosing. Spamming as many 36" immobile weapons as possible is ridiculous. What do you do when you encounter an out of reserves alpha strike army or something that can fight outside your range...yes, pts aren't really a problem, however many of the lists being posted with these burn all of their HS slots on rapier mortars and don't bother taking a TFC to deal with 2+ rerollable cover (RW and Orks), anything for anti tank outside 36", and enough grav/plasma to deal with riptides/wraithknights without completely sacrificing their ability to engage any significant infantry numbers outside 36". ie they are dropping grav cents in pod and TFC can rapier mortars maxed.

Also I would like to advise people not to go hog wild purchasing these when the experimental rules have consistently been toned down over the last 3+ years.

Mavnas wrote:Eh, 36" is fine if your other units are scary too. You put it forward with the guns and gunners mixed together so that he needs to kill a gun and both its gunners before he can shoot at the second. If he shoots your T7 3+ unit that you paid 15 points per wound for (and you had at least token amounts of cover for), you're probably coming out ahead as your other stuff isn't being shot up.

Actually you make a good point in the context of BA and SW. Both armies have several units that actually are pretty good in melee but really only had the mars legacy sicaran as good TAC anti tank before this, SM and DA will be interesting how these settle out as their special detachments and formations cannot currently take these thus these come with a "tax" for most current of the "top tier" lists.

As for having to kill all the models. That is either usually not true or not hard to do. What I mean is that killing 2 models on a unit of 2 rapiers results in a morale check which is failed 28% of the time and thus the guns are destroyed. If you shoot this unit with grav then the unit dies as fast as a 6 SM TAC squad. Poison also doesn't care (DE yay). Finally I usually get most of my artillery kills with psychic shriek or melee, both of which greatly appreciate if you stay within 36" and in LoS.

I am not saying these aren't really good, they definitely are. They are significantly under costed.

 Envihon wrote:

Spoiler:

 Ollivander wrote:
IMO the quad mortar takes it by quite a way - almost half the price for similar capabilities so great for MSU spam which space marines already do well! Also combines pretty well with red hunters chapter tactics to get skyfire with their 12 str8 sundering shells!

Thunderer slightly take it as a ''shootystar'' type unit. If you're sticking tygurius in the unit then the thunderfires are slightly better since they have more options for their shells, and cost comes into it less if you're already pouring in 300-500 points into a unit.

I also think that thunderfires have a significant benefit through the assault deterrent the techmarines provide. It should be fairly easy to get rid of quad mortars through rapid assault units but 3 overwatching flamers, 3 twin linked plasma pistols and 6 servo arms make even assault termies think twice.

The following list would definitely make me worried!
White Scars GLADIUS:
khan - moondrakken
chaplain – bike, auspex
6 x 5 tacticals – 6 razorbacks, 6 lasplas, 6 meltas
1 x 5 assualt marines – 2 flamers, heavy flamer razorback
attack bike - heavy bolter
2 x 5 devs – 2 razorback, 2 lasplas
5 scouts
5 scouts
5 scouts

Red Hunters CAD:
librarian – bike, auspex
3 bikes – 2 grav guns
3 bikes – 2 grav guns
2 quadmortars
2 quadmortars
2 quadmortars

See, the one thing that keeps coming up is taking a certain unit available to a single Chapter, like Tigerious or taking certain Chapter Tactics to make them good. I play Imperial Fists so much of this kind of advice is moot for me and I was looking more for performance overall for all Space Marine Chapters. Also, I have looked around, the Forge World Chapter Tactics have been since taken down and they don't seem to have put them back up.

Actually the Chapter Tactics are there.
You have to scroll down to the bottom of the home page to find the Downloads section.

Yes.