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Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





I posted this on my blog, but I believe it is etiquette to not just post links (https://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/).

Anyway, just some rambling thoughts that are purely my own, and not intended to hurt anyone...


When Age of Sigmar first hit the shelves, there was a great deal of hand-wringing/arguments and general Internet-based attacks on the game and those happy to dive into it. Things seem to be settling down now, so I will venture this post forward; why I think it might be worth people taking a second look at the game and, if they have already adopted it, what else they can be doing with it.

So, warning: this is a pro-Age of Sigmar post!

Caveat: I know that you can do whatever you like with whatever set of rules you have. I know that. However, rules systems by their nature encourage you to act one way or another on the tabletop, and it is the natural tendencies of Age of Sigmar that I will be addressing.

Second Caveat: I am not saying everyone should play the games the way I do (in fact, it is probably better if some don't!). All I am saying is 'here is another angle, why not roll it around in your head for a bit?' If you don't like what comes out after that and you are happy playing the games you are playing, just ignore me!




It is Not Too Simple...
Just four pages of rules? Well, that obviously has to be a game for kids, right? No adult could be challenged by just four pages of rules...

Umm, wrong.

As a full-time games designer, I can tell you that any idiot can make a huge, sprawling complex mess of a rules system. It is simplifying and streamlining rules that takes work. A lot of work. Two great examples of this would be Blood Bowl and Space Hulk - nice simple games, but not without their challenges.

What matters is the interplay between the mechanics and the involvement of players within that framework. But the rules sheet is not the full story. In fact, it is not even the game.

The rules sheet is just the jumping off point. The actual game is to be found in the Warscrolls and, especially, the Battlescrolls; there is more (much more) to this game than four pages. So, if you have looked over the rules sheet and thought there is not too much to get your teeth into - you would be right! However, you are looking at just the absolute core, not the full game. Imagine if someone had just shown you the to hit and wound tables in Fantasy Battle and the first page of the movement phase. There is obviously a lot more to the game, but that core material is pretty simple.

Also, consider this: by making the core material short, simple and (relatively) flat, GW now have the ability to update virtually any aspect of their game, at any time. This, incidentally, means the end of edition updates. They do not even need to update an army book - simply release a new Warscroll or revise an existing one...

Oh, and one more thing to be said - I was watching a couple of Youtube rants last night where a couple of gentlemen were constantly berating Age of Sigmar being aimed at kids. Really hate to burst anyone's bubble, but all Warhammer games are aimed at kids. If you don't think a 12 year old can get his head round Fantasy Battle in any edition then a) you are doing the kid a big dis-service and b) maybe, just maybe, you are forgetting the games you played when you were a teenager.

Let's not kid ourselves, we are playing with toy soldiers.

At the end of the day, what a four page rules system gives you is the ability to play the game rather than the rules. In other words, you will be worrying about whether your unit of Liberators will be able to withstand a third wave of Bloodreavers, rather than trying to work out whether a reform will put them those few millimetres out of the enemy charge arc.


... And There Are Plenty of Tactics
Age of Sigmar is no less tactical than Fantasy Battle.

Now, I will qualify that.

In Fantasy Battle, deployment is paramount and the ability to think two, three or four turns ahead is vital - you need to know where each unit is likely to be (or needs to be) and manoeuvre appropriately. In 40k, this is important and a distinct advantage - though maybe a little less than in Fantasy Battle.

Age of Sigmar, with the relative mobility of units does tend more to the 40k side of things. However, tactics are not to be found in movement alone.

What is also of great importance is how units support one another or, as people often put it, the synergy between units. A unit of Dark Reapers is good. A unit of Dark Reapers with Guide on them and Doom on their target is positively lethal.

This is what Age of Sigmar brings to the table in lumps. Almost every unit in every force fits into a greater jigsaw puzzle in some way, and there are many hours to be had in figuring out the best way to do that. And when you have done that, start again, because there are so many other combinations.

Eldar in 40k (and, I would say, Elves in Fantasy Battle) work best when you get the right unit into the right place at the right time to face the right opponent. This is the central ethos, if you will, behind those forces, while other armies do similar things to perhaps lesser degrees. In Age of Sigmar, getting units to work together is paramount.

Combine the elements of unit mobility and unit synergy, and you have a very, very tactical game on your hands with a host of choices every turn.


Stress Relief the First
This is a big one for me and, from some posts I have seen on various forums, I am not alone in this.

There is no 'stress' in Age of Sigmar - and this runs on two levels. First, I have not had one rules debate/argument/someone trying to push rules way too far at all in Age of Sigmar. Not one. Everyone understands the rules and just gets on with it. Any ambiguity in the rules set is so minor as to not be a factor (a caveat here - don't try to carry Fantasy Battle conventions with you, as you will run into trouble).

Fantasy Battle is a good rules set (and I should point out that my group is not only currently engaged in a long-running Fantasy Battle campaign, but we are about to start a brand new one - go High Elves!), but it is also a big, sprawling one. Not everyone remembers all the rules all the time, so it is not uncommon to briefly halt a game to look up or clarify some obscure part of the movement phase (it is almost always the movement phase). This causes pauses, interpretations and the occasional argument.

In Age of Sigmar, players have the core rules memorised within two or three games. Give it another two or three games to get that 'locked' in your head, and not only will you never need to go back to the rules again, there will be no rules debating during the game.


Stress Relief the Second
The other side of the stress removal is the absence of points. Now, I have played all sorts of games over the past (gulp) few decades, but Warhammer-based games have always featured heavily. As time went on beyond the first editions, this meant points-based games and that meant competition.

Which was fair enough.

However, coming back to a no-points game has been something of a revelation, like you remember something you had once forgotten.

Points-based games mean competition. They encourage it. When you put together a Fantasy Battle force (or 40k, just as guilty), you are trying to put together an army, you will have a tendency to avoid certain units because, for whatever reason, they are not going to work out for you. I am not talking about sub-optimal units (we all include those in our forces) but the ones that you think are just plain bad. You want to put together a decent army that has a reasonable chance of winning, so you want to pick units that will help you do that.

And then (and this is crucial) when you play and lose with such an army, there is a feeling of disappointment, perhaps even failure - the sides were perfectly (yeah, I know) matched and you lost. You got it wrong. You cocked it up.

Age of Sigmar does away with points and, with them, the stress or 'need' to win.

Putting it another way, if you play Age of Sigmar, you will live longer!

Note: I like competitive gaming. I am good at it. But I like this game where the competitiveness is greatly muted.



Field What You Want
This is related to the no-points angle, and it has also been raised on various forums.

In both Fantasy Battle and 40k, there are some very nice models that you may want (or already have) for your army but that will never, ever see any table time because the rules for them are just bad. Wyches for Dark Eldar, for example. Storm Guardians in Craftworld Eldar forces (I actually disagree with that, but perceived wisdom and all that). Medusae for Dark Elves. Some people even put Tactical Marines into this category, but I strongly disagree there...

It might get even worse when your army book gets updated and a unit that you once loved to used as been emasculated to the point where you can no longer bring it in a regular force.

With no points-based gaming, that does not matter. You want a wing of Warhawk Riders because you think they look stunning? Bring them along, there really is no downside.

In fact, if you you see a box of models sitting on the shop shelf that you quite fancy, you can now grab it, paint it, and put it straight onto the table without having to worry about its effectiveness or, crucially, without feeling the need to paint up another fifteen near-identical box sets to field a whole force.

Okay, that last might be a stretch. We are hobbyists after all...


Do Scenarios, Not Points
Right, first thing here - there is no proper (and no wrong!) way to play any game, so long as you are having fun. There are no units of Gaming Police getting ready to break down your door because you converted Warhammer to a D10 system or whatever.

However, if you have just grabbed a bunch of Warscrolls and used the four page rules sheet, you might have done it wrong

Put another way, if you did that and did not have fun, then clearly something was wrong. But it may not just be the rules that let you down.

I could harp on about narrative but, fundamentally, Age of Sigmar is about a story. You have the wider story of Sigmar's Crusade, and there will be much more to come in campaign books and via the Black Library in the future. However, it is also a story about your army and what it is doing - either in the context of just a single battle or a whole campaign.

What this boils down to is forget playing with just the 4 page rules sheet and nothing else. Forget the various points-based balancing systems that are floating around (though that Laws of War does look pretty good at first glance!).

Pick a scenario from the hardback. Come up with a quick one or two sentence reason of why your army is taking part and why the enemy is your enemy. Perhaps go as far as deciding who the attacker is and who takes the role of defender before you start.

Next, come up with a reasonable force that you could see fighting it.

That is about all you need to do. Leave Tyrion, Archaon and Nagash at home, save them for the really special scenarios. Don't be a dick about the forces you pick. Just choose the units you think your commander in the field would really have at his disposal.

Then play.

If you do all that, you will have given Age of Sigmar a decent try. Maybe it is not for you. Maybe, if you had a disagreeable game, it was for you but not for your opponent. In which case try again.

But do try it. Scenarios (Battlescrolls) is where Age of Sigmar sits.

Incidentally, if it does work out for you, pick another scenario and play with similar (or even the same) force, and figure out how the two battles are linked. Then do the same after that game - before long, you will not only have a campaign running, you will have named your characters and they might even have started to develop personalities. If you are writing brand new scenarios to fit in with your storyline, you have nailed it.



A Different Class of Player
Now, this bit could start an argument, but please bear with me.

I am not running anyone down here, nor am I attacking any style of play.

But.

Competitive (in this context, points-based) games attract That Guy. 90% of gamers are not that guy but, as a society, we always have to cater to the 10%.

That Guy wants to win, and is usually a bit of a dick about it, whether it is in attitude, rules-lawyering or army selection. When we do points-based games, we may meet That Guy. We may even, if we are truly honest, be That Guy for brief moments.

Age of Sigmar does not really encourage That Guy. There is little in Age of Sigmar that welcomes That Guy. That Guy may not look twice at Age of Sigmar.

Which is good news for the rest of us!

Basically, I am saying that when you play Age of Sigmar, you may have a better chance to play against people who just want to push some models around the table and maybe continue the story of their great warband and its leader. You may never meet That Guy.

This is not to say, of course, that you cannot do both styles of gaming. You can still play Warhammer Fantasy and Age of Sigmar.

I am...

You just bring a different style of play to both.


But... Sigmarines!
But are GW not just trying to bring about a Fantasy style of 40k? Are the Hammers of Sigmar not just Ultramarines by another name?

Well, you can draw all sorts of parallels. At the end of the day it is still Warhammer: Age of Sigmar, and will still retain the look, feel and polish of other Warhammer games.

And yes, GW will push the Stormcast Eternals forward ahead of everything else because they bring the Awesome (YMMV, of course, but that is why other armies exist...).

However, this new background is only just starting. Think back to 1st edition Fantasy Battle or 40k, and how sparse things were then and, importantly, how they were built upon. You cannot, as a writer, just magically create a whole living, breathing universe. Like a fine wine, it takes time for a setting to fully awaken.

However, keep an eye on what GW brings out, in terms of background, over the next few months. They obviously have plans in this direction, for both characters and events.

The book in the starter set is really just a primer. The hardback adds a little more (the most fluff is in the scenarios section - read and play the scenarios!). Keep an eye on White Dwarf, as those articles are bringing to light aspects of the background that the books have not really touched upon yet. Read the Black Library novels and shorts - these, above all else, are bringing the setting to life at the moment.

And keep an eye on the range of hardbacks that start this week - if you are expecting huge blocks of rules and units, I think you may be disappointed. I think these books will be more about the storyline and scenarios (both in print and encouraging you to make up your own), and this will be where the heart of Age of Sigmar will lie. Not on the latest, greatest Codex and its killer units, but on the next stage of the story and how it can be played out on your table.

And what if you are not keen on the story? Well, there seems to be three main story lines being pushed right now (in three different realms) giving you three separate, though related, campaigns. And if they do not get you going - make up your own.

That, perhaps, is the real aim of Age of Sigmar.


We Ain't Seen it All Yet
It really is okay to say 'I don't know.' It is also okay to say 'I am not sure about Age of Sigmar right now, I think I will wait.'

That may be the most sensible route between diving headlong into a new game and completely rejecting it out of hand (and playing just a couple of games with the four page rules sheet alone is still out of hand...).

The reason is that, aside from a few people at GW HQ, no one really knows yet what Age of Sigmar is going to be. Given what I know of GW though, we have not yet seen a fraction of what this game is going to be able to do. Big long campaigns? Siege rules? Gods on the battlefield? Underground warfare with interchangeable tiles to make new caverns and caves?

We just don't know.

For my part, I am quite excited at the idea of a (near) clean slate, of being able to explore the setting as it develops without the huge weight of baggage the Old World had (remember, I am still exploring the Old World, in both Fantasy Battle and Fantasy Roleplay, this does not have to be a binary choice!). I even changed my style of painting for the new game, though that might be going too far for some!

I guess what I am trying to say in a very long-winded manner is this.

* If you tried Age of Sigmar and have bought into the story-led, scenario-driven idea of gaming, great! I want you in my group!
* If you tried Age of Sigmar but thought it too simple, light or lacklustre, give it just one more try with the ideas above - there may be a little more to this game than was first shown to you.
* You do not need to choose between Fantasy Battle and Age of Sigmar, or competitive gaming and narrative gaming - you can do both. These games scratch different itches.
* You do not need to make your mind up yet. Check back in a while, maybe at the start of the New Year. There might be something in Age of Sigmar by that point that catches your imagination. Or maybe not.


40k and Age of Sigmar Blog - A Tabletop Gamer's Diary: https://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/

Mongoose Publishing: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I think that needing a post such as this to defend the game and convince people its a good game, in itself suggests that there are serious issues with a game.

If it's good, people will play it, if its bad people will not play it. If its offensively bad, people will be very vocal about it.

For me as a fantasy player, it has VERY big shoes to fill, and it has failed in every single way. Yes the rules are VERY simplistic. I'm positive that any decent wargamer with a decent grasps of maths could have put together the core rules of AoS in a day or two.

And the whole thing about giving AoS a try because its scenario driven? WHFB is can easily be scenario driven. Heck any wargame can, so that is not a selling point.

You are correct though, you don't need to choose between WHFB and AoS. In my case and many people I know, WHFB is the game we are chosing. Those of us who also play 40k can get our AoS itch scratched playing 40k with our Bolt Storm... sorry I meant Storm Bolters sigmari... sorry Marines.

It doesn't matter how you word it, AoS is lazy. The ruleset is lazy and simplistic. The only flavour is through the warscrolls which in themselves are all lazy and simplistic. AoS strikes me similar to D&D 4th edition. Where you could have the Wizards fireball, Fighters whirly death spin attack and the Monks kungfu butterfly kick attack, etc, which are just reworded descriptions of the same effect.

Anyone with a decent understanding of maths and numbers can understand the mechanics of AoS. Those mechanics are painfully basic. That and the absolute destruction of decades of lore and background means the game has nothing in it for many players.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well said sir, exalted

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Maryland

chnmmr wrote:
I think that needing a post such as this to defend the game and convince people its a good game, in itself suggests that there are serious issues with a game.

If it's good, people will play it, if its bad people will not play it. If its offensively bad, people will be very vocal about it.

For me as a fantasy player, it has VERY big shoes to fill, and it has failed in every single way. Yes the rules are VERY simplistic. I'm positive that any decent wargamer with a decent grasps of maths could have put together the core rules of AoS in a day or two.

And the whole thing about giving AoS a try because its scenario driven? WHFB is can easily be scenario driven. Heck any wargame can, so that is not a selling point.

You are correct though, you don't need to choose between WHFB and AoS. In my case and many people I know, WHFB is the game we are chosing. Those of us who also play 40k can get our AoS itch scratched playing 40k with our Bolt Storm... sorry I meant Storm Bolters sigmari... sorry Marines.

It doesn't matter how you word it, AoS is lazy. The ruleset is lazy and simplistic. The only flavour is through the warscrolls which in themselves are all lazy and simplistic. AoS strikes me similar to D&D 4th edition. Where you could have the Wizards fireball, Fighters whirly death spin attack and the Monks kungfu butterfly kick attack, etc, which are just reworded descriptions of the same effect.

Anyone with a decent understanding of maths and numbers can understand the mechanics of AoS. Those mechanics are painfully basic. That and the absolute destruction of decades of lore and background means the game has nothing in it for many players.



Agreed and exalted.

Also, I have a problem with the "but all miniatures games are for kids, guys! We're playing with toy soldiers, after all" argument. Just because a game can be played by children doesn't mean it's meant for children. I played baseball in Little League when I was a kid. Does that mean all the Major League players should stop training and taking their seasons so seriously?

AoS might not be designed for children, but it is a ruleset that allows for the minimum amount of effort to be made while still being able to call it a "ruleset". It exists purely to push around the models GW expects you to buy, which is the extent to which they care about your interaction with the HHHobby.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yes, the major leagues for every sport are indeed children's games and should not be taken as seriously as they are.

   
Made in us
Tough Treekin




I think people have missed the point here. To my reading, that post is focussed towards people who approached AoS with previous experience of WFB and expectations of it being on a par.

If you try and play AoS like WFB, it won't work, your itch won't be scratched.
If you play AoS as-is and look for where that takes you, it'll fare better.
This is somewhat borne out by the majority of forum goers who are quite vocal about it's failings are obviously previous WFB players, current or otherwise.
What is interesting is that the pure 40k (or other systems) who never bothered with WFB previously seem to be the more positive views on it and are giving it a go.
I'm not here to argue any viewpoint is wrong or right, but the WFB legacy has definitely placed expectations on the game that were quite clearly never intended to be met.
After all, even atvthenmost cynical level - WFB wasn't making GW enough money in their opinion, so why would they try the same thing again? Of course it's different.
Whether people like it or not is down to them; if you've gone into trying it with no preconceptions and an open mind, that's all you can do.
If you haven't, then read the article again.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Yes, the major leagues for every sport are indeed children's games and should not be taken as seriously as they are.



Heh, I agree with the statement but not with what the statement is trying to argue.... if that makes sense o_O;
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




He was saying that other games (sports) are inherently more serious and deserve more respect than tabletop games.

I say thee nay.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Maryland

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
He was saying that other games (sports) are inherently more serious and deserve more respect than tabletop games.

I say thee nay.


That... that wasn't what I was saying. At all. I'm honestly confused as to how you got that out of what I wrote.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/13 14:32:36


   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




RoperPG wrote:
I think people have missed the point here. To my reading, that post is focussed towards people who approached AoS with previous experience of WFB and expectations of it being on a par.

If you try and play AoS like WFB, it won't work, your itch won't be scratched.
If you play AoS as-is and look for where that takes you, it'll fare better.
This is somewhat borne out by the majority of forum goers who are quite vocal about it's failings are obviously previous WFB players, current or otherwise.
What is interesting is that the pure 40k (or other systems) who never bothered with WFB previously seem to be the more positive views on it and are giving it a go.
I'm not here to argue any viewpoint is wrong or right, but the WFB legacy has definitely placed expectations on the game that were quite clearly never intended to be met.
After all, even atvthenmost cynical level - WFB wasn't making GW enough money in their opinion, so why would they try the same thing again? Of course it's different.
Whether people like it or not is down to them; if you've gone into trying it with no preconceptions and an open mind, that's all you can do.
If you haven't, then read the article again.



You're right generally. To me the biggest issue with AoS is that it's a replcement for a completely different game. It is simply too different in lore, aesthetics and background. IF AoS was a seperate game that didn't not override WHFB, I'd probably be more leneant towards it and forgiving of its basic ruleset. But no, it is replacing (in my opinion,) a far more complex, rich and in-depth game with something almost unreconizable. It's like deciding 40k needed movement blocks, facing and the WHFB movement system. Also lets destroy the universe, the emperor has died, chaos has won, Marines are now a fractured 'race' and the main game force has come from a portal and look awfully like humanoid reptiles.

-THAT- is what AoS looks like to me.
   
Made in pl
Storm Trooper with Maglight




Breslau

chnmmr wrote:
I think that needing a post such as this to defend the game and convince people its a good game, in itself suggests that there are serious issues with a game.

If it's good, people will play it, if its bad people will not play it. If its offensively bad, people will be very vocal about it.

It's not just when a game is offensively bad that people are very vocal about it. People are very vocal when something changes too.

For me as a fantasy player, it has VERY big shoes to fill, and it has failed in every single way. Yes the rules are VERY simplistic. I'm positive that any decent wargamer with a decent grasps of maths could have put together the core rules of AoS in a day or two.

I can show you a couple dozen artists who can paint Rembrandt's or Picasso's paintings. Everyone with enough painting skills can copy an already existing painting and everyone with a brain can come up with SOME game rules. WFB rules weren't brilliant either. Nor are those of Warmachine - they're literally just "roll over enemy's stats" along with a couple other rules and destructible steam golem parts. Anyone can come up with a system like that, right? And yet it's one of the best, most competitive systems on the market. X-Wing? Man, that's just moving toy planes using fixed movement templates and, boy, you can't even shoot BEFORE moving! Anyone can come up with a D20 P&P RPG system too, D&D is not all that bright. Get the gist? Anyone can come up with anything, especially if something like that already exist, but a simple idea like AoS can still work. It lacks a couple rules, but it's literally a couple of them. The system is unfinished, not bad - when GW updates it (that's what the PDF system is for, supposedly) it will have all the things it lacked as AoS (so, no, it won't become WFB again).

You are correct though, you don't need to choose between WHFB and AoS. In my case and many people I know, WHFB is the game we are chosing. Those of us who also play 40k can get our AoS itch scratched playing 40k with our Bolt Storm... sorry I meant Storm Bolters sigmari... sorry Marines.

What I love about anegdotes is that they're not really any arguments, even though they sound like one. Your couple of friends prefers WFB, my couple of friends prefer AoS. There's no right side here.

That and the absolute destruction of decades of lore and background means the game has nothing in it for many players.

While I see why people might get angry with the change for various reasons (they grew up with it, like me, and don't want to see it end or they just started playing WFB because of the world and it got destroyed), I still don't really mind it changing personally. People cried and whined that GW never progressed with their storyline, and now that they did (no, it wasn't sudden, the whole End Times progressed with each book) and the clock hit midnight, people cry and whine that GW decided to do it. If someone gets worked up over that, then it's quite silly, because you still can use your current models and play AoS battles set in the "World-That-Was" just like you could play Lord of the Rings battles using Hobbit miniatures. And if it's the game changing that you don't like... well, stick to 8th ed. Or KoW. Or whatever else comes out.

GW had the right to kill WFB just like McDonald's can discontinue any kind of burger they wish if they think it's a good idea and customers can do nothing about it. That's real life, people have to deal with changes, nothing is eternal. AoS will die and get replaced with another system if GW doesn't die and it's place isn't taken by another company. Deal with it.

P.s. - I know I haven't replied to all of the points you made, like the fact that you claim this system to be lazy - I both agree and disagree, in a way. The warscrolls must've taken some work to design and they work very well with the rules. The only issues I see with AoS right now are missing rules that will make it an actually good game. And it doesn't really need all that much - fix summoning, add cover, expand magic, remove initiative, make army composition guidelines or balance 1 wound infantry against each other and it'll be one of the best games for casual, fun play. An ultimate beer and pretzels title on the shelves. See - it is not trying to be competitive, you can clearly notice that, and if GW did not intend i to be so, then don't expect that. Sure, it could've been, but if it was GW's decision, then this is what the game is about, nothing else. Either like it or move on. Or be constructive with your criticism and say what could've been done better/how to fix it rather than whine on the forums calling it lazy. Try to contribute, suggest changes that would make it better as a game it tries to be.

Neither pointless whining nor blindly stating that it's great are helpful. If you just come here to say it sucks, you've wasted your time, your keyboard's durability and oxygen your brain used to come up with that reply, so you should go apologize to the hard-working plants. I believe that constructive criticism is really the only way to go if you want to make something better.

2014's GW Apologist of the Year Award winner.

http://media.oglaf.com/comic/ulric.jpg 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm sorry, I have nothing constructive to say about AoS. I have nothing supportive to say about it. I loathe the game in every way. I have tried the game, I've read the rules over and over. There is nothing attracting me to it that 40k doesn't already do, and I'm not interested in playing 2 similar games.

Actually I lie, I sorta like the winged Sigmarines and find the little griffon thing to be adorable. Sadly its not anywhere near enough to make me get excited over this game.

Yes it is GWs decision. I don't have to like it, nor support it. I've thankfully purchased what I need to have my two WHFB armies with enough options to not grow stale and I will be sticking to 8th along with a number of my other friends. AoS will be at the bottom of our list of wargames to try. seriously. A number of us have picked up War of the Rings and Frostgrave. We also still play 40k and we are happy with that.

As far as we're concerned AoS exists to be made fun of in general conversation. Currently its A** of Sigmar, and that suits us just fine.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





UK

Very well put. Exalted.
   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

Nice writeup Mongoose, thanks for putting in the time and well reasoned out posts.

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
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Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

Not lying here:
chnmmr wrote:
It's like deciding 40k needed movement blocks, facing and the WHFB movement system. Also lets destroy the universe, the emperor has died, chaos has won, Marines are now a fractured 'race' and the main game force has come from a portal and look awfully like humanoid reptiles.
Would play. Slightly more seriously, AOS-ing 40k would get me to come back to it. Dumber rules would help return it to a time when we were able to just wallow in the GrimDark Mayhem of it all

------------------

On the topic at hand, I'll exalt the OP's post, because I agree on several points. I don't think AOS has that much depth - certainly not enough to maintain the vibrant mental energy outside of the game that WHFB, W40k and other list-centric games do - but I also don't think it's totally brain dead or worthless. I also look forward to playing more scenarios, even simple objective-based games ala 40k 3-4E, as I expect those games are far more compelling than 'beat 'em up' AOS matches. And the less we say about Sudden Death the better

Like other posters though, I still feel the lingering pain of obliterating WHFB and replacing it with a simpler, starkly different game - but one that constantly echoes the lost, probing the wound with promises of something we once loved. Of course we can, and do, still play 8E. But.

- Salvage

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/13 15:44:43


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Ghastly Grave Guard





UK

@ OP excellent post. Well thought out and well said and loving your stormcast, looking good!

Second post lol he didn't do this to defend AoS he donr it as his view on it. Its laughable you think AoS needs defended, defended from what exactly. The game is fine and people are enjoying it and playing it. Couldn't say that about fantasy before hand. Game was s mess. GW saved their fantasy setting by bringing in AoS and destroying the waste that was. Yeah lots of people are butt hurt but frankly they had it coming. Fantasy was a drain on gw and the "players" weren't buying so they killed it off. GW will get money either way as AoS is doing well.

You may not like AoS and not buy it but no one was buying fantasy before do little to no difference. AoS on the other hand has totally revitalized fantasy and made it relevant. Nee players are coming in, old players are returning and people like me who gave up on fantasy are coming back also.

This is the best thing GW have done in years. If you don't like it, don't play it. Simple

Unfortunately for you old fantasy players AoS is popular and people are playing it.

Be happy with old fantasy and let others be happy with AoS.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 infinite_array wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
He was saying that other games (sports) are inherently more serious and deserve more respect than tabletop games.

I say thee nay.


That... that wasn't what I was saying. At all. I'm honestly confused as to how you got that out of what I wrote.


You said that just because a game can be played by children, doesn't mean it was made for children. Then pointed to sports as a reference stating that professional baseball players shouldn't take their sport less seriously just because you played it as a child. My answer is yes, they should. It is a game, and should assuredly not be taken seriously by anyone. They play with a ball, I play with action figures. We are both enjoying a pass time the same way children do because that is what it was created to do, cause enjoyment.

Didn't mean to be rude, I work in a factory environment and have to defend my hobby from 50+ year old men who don't believe in anything but work, drinking, and sports. Went into "protect my hobby" mode there

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Motograter wrote:
@ OP excellent post. Well thought out and well said and loving your stormcast, looking good!

Second post lol he didn't do this to defend AoS he donr it as his view on it. Its laughable you think AoS needs defended, defended from what exactly. The game is fine and people are enjoying it and playing it. Couldn't say that about fantasy before hand. Game was s mess. GW saved their fantasy setting by bringing in AoS and destroying the waste that was. Yeah lots of people are butt hurt but frankly they had it coming. Fantasy was a drain on gw and the "players" weren't buying so they killed it off. GW will get money either way as AoS is doing well.

You may not like AoS and not buy it but no one was buying fantasy before do little to no difference. AoS on the other hand has totally revitalized fantasy and made it relevant. Nee players are coming in, old players are returning and people like me who gave up on fantasy are coming back also.

This is the best thing GW have done in years. If you don't like it, don't play it. Simple

Unfortunately for you old fantasy players AoS is popular and people are playing it.

Be happy with old fantasy and let others be happy with AoS.


Sorry I can't. The AoS people supposedly like (I've seen very few people play it in my area thankfully,) came with the destruction of everything I loved before. I can not and will not like it. I will not support it, and will actively speak out against it. You can call me whatever you want, disagree with me, or agree with me. Call me names for taking a 'game about toy soldiers seriously, Whatever. AoS has replaced a very different game I loved and spent countless hours and money into. If I knew years ago this was to be the fate of fantasy, I'd be alot richer (having bought no fantasy,) or playing a different game. WHFB has been a big part of my life, and one of the games that brought me into the hobby in the first place. I've watched my collection grow and painting skill improve. Heck I've even played the roleplay games based on the setting. That setting is now gone and will never be expanded on again. It has now been replaced by lazy and boring tripe.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Maryland

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

You said that just because a game can be played by children, doesn't mean it was made for children. Then pointed to sports as a reference stating that professional baseball players shouldn't take their sport less seriously just because you played it as a child. My answer is yes, they should. It is a game, and should assuredly not be taken seriously by anyone. They play with a ball, I play with action figures. We are both enjoying a pass time the same way children do because that is what it was created to do, cause enjoyment.


Games can be taken seriously if they are played to a higher level than what children would play at. To play in the high leagues for sports requires training and physical prowess, and sports players can't be faulted for that.

Wargames can reward similar high level play, although via mental prowess. I can easily come away from some games mentally fatigued because I spent three hours continually thinking hard - which is fun for me. In the same way I can sit down and play a beer and pretzels game that doesn't tax me in any way.

Miniature wargaming comes from a mixed heritage of fun and serious (Little Wars and Kriegspiel, respectively), so trying to paint the entire hobby with such a large brush as "It's all a children's game!" is somewhat insulting.

Regardless of any of that. I think Mongoose has another problem with his post, and it's the "wait and see" attitude. Were this coming from any other company, AoS wouldn't get the time of day. And its up-front presentation is still lackluster, along with the fact that this "brave new world" is getting plenty of repackages from the old one.

The expectation that GW will bring out actual campaign books or anything that will improve AoS seems to go against what we're seeing right now - expensive art books with tiny amounts of rules. Not to mention that GW's last big campaign only seemed to hasten 8th Edition's death in a search for more money.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2015/08/13 18:22:06


   
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Chnmmr: nothing is keeping you from continuing on with playing in the old world. People are readily playing Horus heresy and it is set 10000 years in the past. Please, keep painting, keep playing, try AoS or keep at 8th ed. Nobody would tell you to stop, you shouldn't let the introduction of new fluff keep you from your enjoyment.

Infinite array: the only difference between little league and the big leagues is how well you play. The rules are simple and straightforward. The players don't need extra rules to make them feel like they are playing a higher level of game.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Maryland

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Infinite array: the only difference between little league and the big leagues is how well you play. The rules are simple and straightforward. The players don't need extra rules to make them feel like they are playing a higher level of game.


Oh, thank you! Actually, take my sports argument and toss it out the window, because you made me think of a better example - let's look at board games instead, since they act much like miniature wargaming in that same sense.

We've all played board games as kids, right? Chutes & Ladders, Candyland, LIFE, Stratego, Risk - standard stuff. But it's difficult to make the assessment that "Board games are for kids" when there are games out there with varying levels of rules complexity. There are games that kids can play, but at the same time you get people who take their board gaming seriously.

   
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Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot




New Bedford, MA

MongooseMatt wrote:

... Really hate to burst anyone's bubble, but all Warhammer games are aimed at kids...


Sammy; Billy, what's your favorite part of Warhammer?
Billy: I like the dark parody of theocratic bureaucracy in the post Pax Romana/pre enlightenment era.
Johnny; Cool! I like the oblique references to 80's British politics and comic culture.
Mandi; Does anyone think the hermaphroditic rape goddess goes a little overboard?
Sammy; Naw, I' seen worse on Dora!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/13 19:44:30


I notice my posts seem to bring threads to a screeching halt. Considering the content of most threads on dakka, you're welcome. 
   
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Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice






I think almost everyone who is going to be swayed by AoS has already been swayed. I mean people can keep producing these types of blogs trying to explain why people should give AoS a try over and over, month after month but all the info has already been pretty much put forward for both sides of the argument. Your post really was just saying what the other AoS supporters have already said many time.

My friend loves AoS and we played fantasy a lot I don't like AoS im not going to convince him to stop liking it just as he can't convince me to force myself to enjoy it. I don't see the point in these 'trying to sway opinion' posts anymore tbh. You're not going to convert anyone who dislikes AoS to liking it just like someone who doesn't like it isn't going to convince a fan that its actually a bad game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/13 19:47:22


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and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him. 
   
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Dakka Veteran





I think the OP brings up legitimate points. I started with fantasy in the mid 90s my first army was Chaos Dwarfs, so you could say Ive been bitten a few times by this kind of thing. I see this smaller skirmish like game, look at all my Fantasy models and groan. But you know what? Some people like a battle laid out for them (or skirmish) and it seems like thats what Gdub plans... to release occasional campaign books like this first one about Sigmar's hammer. And I think Im cool with that.

I have a friend I got in to the hobby (40k), and rather them just bombard him with the rules and play, I did iit like a story. I would hand him a bunch of guys, tell him the mission and we played. On paper I made the two army lists. When AoS came out and I was explaining how there were no point costs and you simply "forge the narrative" his response was positive. He said "it sounds like a game id like because you just set all your models up and play." His response surprised me at first but then I realized that I had been doing that with him all along with 40k. Even now, He cant stand just playing a game. He wants narrative.

As much as I hate the simplicity and what they did to fantasy, I'm interested. Hey If I want to play old Fantasy I still have the books. No one took them from me.




 
   
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Boosting Black Templar Biker






 Motograter wrote:
@Be happy with old fantasy and let others be happy with AoS.


This. Just this.

   
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Dakka Veteran




Central WI

I agree with the op on pretty much every point. I really like the aspect of scenarios and how it is fun driven and not super competative.

8th edition players should be thankful as gw will still produce their models now (fantasy was failing bad).

Oh and I really LOVE that silver/gold/gray color scheme. I could have sworn that I've seen a couple units in that unique color scheme on ebay. I may have to take some ideas from that beautiful paint scheme!

IN ALAE MORTIS... On the wings of Death!! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 infinite_array wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Infinite array: the only difference between little league and the big leagues is how well you play. The rules are simple and straightforward. The players don't need extra rules to make them feel like they are playing a higher level of game.


Oh, thank you! Actually, take my sports argument and toss it out the window, because you made me think of a better example - let's look at board games instead, since they act much like miniature wargaming in that same sense.

We've all played board games as kids, right? Chutes & Ladders, Candyland, LIFE, Stratego, Risk - standard stuff. But it's difficult to make the assessment that "Board games are for kids" when there are games out there with varying levels of rules complexity. There are games that kids can play, but at the same time you get people who take their board gaming seriously.


When you look at the games listed, risk springs to the fore to me. How many pages of rules are needed for risk? How serious and competitive does that game get? How long can 5 full grown adults play that game whilst trying to win? Now how many times have you seen a group of 5-8 year olds sit down and play to the end?

It is a game with simple rules, but one with near endless possibilities for competition and fun to be had. How is that game a classic with fans the world over, but age of sigmar is childish and shouldn't be taken seriously?

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






chnmmr wrote:
I think that needing a post such as this to defend the game and convince people its a good game, in itself suggests that there are serious issues with a game.

If it's good, people will play it, if its bad people will not play it. If its offensively bad, people will be very vocal about it.

For me as a fantasy player, it has VERY big shoes to fill, and it has failed in every single way. Yes the rules are VERY simplistic. I'm positive that any decent wargamer with a decent grasps of maths could have put together the core rules of AoS in a day or two.

And the whole thing about giving AoS a try because its scenario driven? WHFB is can easily be scenario driven. Heck any wargame can, so that is not a selling point.

You are correct though, you don't need to choose between WHFB and AoS. In my case and many people I know, WHFB is the game we are chosing. Those of us who also play 40k can get our AoS itch scratched playing 40k with our Bolt Storm... sorry I meant Storm Bolters sigmari... sorry Marines.

It doesn't matter how you word it, AoS is lazy. The ruleset is lazy and simplistic. The only flavour is through the warscrolls which in themselves are all lazy and simplistic. AoS strikes me similar to D&D 4th edition. Where you could have the Wizards fireball, Fighters whirly death spin attack and the Monks kungfu butterfly kick attack, etc, which are just reworded descriptions of the same effect.

Anyone with a decent understanding of maths and numbers can understand the mechanics of AoS. Those mechanics are painfully basic. That and the absolute destruction of decades of lore and background means the game has nothing in it for many players.




Great post

Most of the thing said in the op makes sense. I'm a very causual, non-competitive gamer, and I like playing story based games. Bbut the problem is that you can do most of these things with any other games (scenario based games, no point value), and you'll have a lot more fun playing these games than AoS, since their rules are more interesting and creative. And while I agree that it can be fun to play a game without any point cost, not having point costs for units is ,imo, extremely lazy, and makes it feel like this ruleset is a beta.

AoS is a straightforward, basic games. And frankly, it is very boring. I don't see anything that this game have that makes it unique, creative or fun. The game is all about rolling 4+ or 3+. Pretty much every special rules seems to be either direct damage or a rerolling 1s. The only unique thing that it has, are these pathetic silly rules that makes you scream the same stupid lines over and over again, or dancing, or showing pictures of an animal in your cellphone, and frankly, I don't see anyone, except for borderline persons, who will be amused by doing this.

And concerning storyed games, at the moment, I must say that I don't think that AoS lend itself to these kind of games, since we know barely nothing about the factions except for the sigmarines and the chaos (and sylvaneth, to a lesser extent). So unless you play the same chaos vs sigmarines matchup again and agains, it's very difficult to have an engaging narrative games.

The only redeeming point of AoS for me is that the miniatures are stunning (even if they are rather boring, since it seems that they only release the same few figs iover and over again). And even then, the only way I would ever buy some is too convert over to 40k. As for the game in itself, I would only play it if i had a young kid that I wanted to introduce to wargaming. Barring that, I sincerly dont see how a relatively mature person could prefer this game rulewise over the alternative that are available on the market.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2015/08/16 07:13:07


lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka






@MongooseMatt - A very thoughtful and well-written post.

What you wrote is reflective of a couple of groups of AoS players that I know of who really enjoy the game -- the three standout "features" that you spoke of are:

1. The story aspect of the game.

2. "That Guy" just isn't drawn to the game. So the chance of running into "That Guy" is near zero.

3. You can just play with whatever models you feel like, and don't have to stress about list building.

Now... I have to say that I've given AoS a shot, and the game isn't for me (though the Sigmarite models are). I like #1, I like #2 (though playing privately, TFG isn't an issue), but I spend too much time obsessing over building lists to strip it out of my gaming.

It's not even so much that I want to play 1850 vs 1850 points. Usually our games are not that; they're mostly scenario (not story) based 40k, and often, the points are hugely disproportionate. But I like making lists it scratches some weird nerd itch.

Now, regarding the story:

Yes, anyone can write a story and play it with any game system. BUT. Who here has played RPGs where a GM wrote a BAD story? What about the GM that just wings it and makes stuff up as he goes along? Now.. what if you had to make up a story.. and had no GM?!

The nice thing about the AoS story arc is that you're playing armies within the context of a storyline, and the storyline is provided to you. Art, fluff, and all. And if you like that (as my wife does), it is not easily replaceable by players making it up as they go along.

Personally, I am enjoying reading the AoS hardcovers (I just need my wife to open up her copy of Ghal Maraz so that I can steal it and read it), and reading through the scenarios more than I am playing the game
   
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Sneaky Lictor




Sacramento, CA

will try to read this all later. Exalted, regardless.

currently playing: ASoIaF | Warhammer 40k: Kill Team

other favorites:
FO:WW | RUMBLESLAM | WarmaHordes | Carnevale | Infinity | Warcry | Wrath of Kings

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