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2015/08/13 21:40:03
Subject: Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
djones520 wrote: Quit the job. When you are a government employee, you don't have the right to fall back on your beliefs as a guide. It's that damn simple.
Now, at the same time, the recent court ruling that a private bakery can be forced to bake cakes for homosexual weddings, even if they don't want to, is completely bogus in my eyes.
"Interracial Marriages are against my religion."
That's cute, nice strawman, but I'll play along. Since when did being a dick become illegal?
Full Frontal Nerdity
2015/08/13 21:42:47
Subject: Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
djones520 wrote: Quit the job. When you are a government employee, you don't have the right to fall back on your beliefs as a guide. It's that damn simple.
Now, at the same time, the recent court ruling that a private bakery can be forced to bake cakes for homosexual weddings, even if they don't want to, is completely bogus in my eyes.
"Interracial Marriages are against my religion."
That's cute, nice strawman, but I'll play along. Since when did being a dick become illegal?
Pretty much, but it's the most obvious example. Being a dick is very legal (after all trump's not in jail), but discrimination is.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2015/08/13 21:43:57
Subject: Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
djones520 wrote: Quit the job. When you are a government employee, you don't have the right to fall back on your beliefs as a guide. It's that damn simple.
Now, at the same time, the recent court ruling that a private bakery can be forced to bake cakes for homosexual weddings, even if they don't want to, is completely bogus in my eyes.
that ruling wasn't as much about how private entities have to serve homosexuals as it was an interesting ruling on the nature of bespoke bakeries.
I think most people would think that a shop or restaurant denying service due to sexual orientation is probably wrong, or they'd at least see the merit of such laws. Baking is, in my opinion at least, less a "public accommodation" open to all, and more a semi-professional and creative service, which should allow for broader discretion in choosing jobs.
2015/08/13 21:46:13
Subject: Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
djones520 wrote: Quit the job. When you are a government employee, you don't have the right to fall back on your beliefs as a guide. It's that damn simple.
Now, at the same time, the recent court ruling that a private bakery can be forced to bake cakes for homosexual weddings, even if they don't want to, is completely bogus in my eyes.
"Interracial Marriages are against my religion."
That's cute, nice strawman, but I'll play along. Since when did being a dick become illegal?
Pretty much, but it's the most obvious example. Being a dick is very legal (after all trump's not in jail), but discrimination is.
djones520 wrote: Quit the job. When you are a government employee, you don't have the right to fall back on your beliefs as a guide. It's that damn simple.
Now, at the same time, the recent court ruling that a private bakery can be forced to bake cakes for homosexual weddings, even if they don't want to, is completely bogus in my eyes.
"Interracial Marriages are against my religion."
That's cute, nice strawman, but I'll play along. Since when did being a dick become illegal?
Pretty much, but it's the most obvious example. Being a dick is very legal (after all trump's not in jail), but discrimination is.
But, AFAIK, the kentuky case has nothing to do with discrimination, and more to do with them ignoring court orders. It's the other case that has to do with discrimination.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2015/08/13 21:58:22
Subject: Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
Spetulhu wrote: True, but in their case those head coverings and beards don't really infringe on the rights of other people. .
Sure they do. I don't believe people should have beards, and therefore all those people with beards are violating my belief.
Also, beards are scratchy, and children's faces are delicate. If someone with a beard kisses their child, they may be discomforted. And people may make fun of the children for having a parent who is a hipster. Won't someone think of the children?
I think that covers the main objections to same-sex marriage...
2015/08/13 22:21:18
Subject: Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
Spetulhu wrote: True, but in their case those head coverings and beards don't really infringe on the rights of other people. .
Sure they do. I don't believe people should have beards, and therefore all those people with beards are violating my belief. I think that covers the main objections to same-sex marriage...
Oh, that's wicked of you. And it sadly also points out what people in other parts of the world believe. In some places a beard is the only thing you should have, or at least a moustache. If you lack one you're just not trustworthy. But few of those places demand it either - it's just a cultural thing with no backing in law. Like India where a high-caste Hindu just can't take suggestions from a lower-caste or gods forbid a christian or muslim! No law on it, it's just how things are.
2015/08/13 22:29:01
Subject: Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
Yes. Her workplace needs to accommodate reasonable religious requests. Her request is not reasonable and cannot be accomodated. Her refusal to let her subordinates issue them is not only absurd but the very definition of contempt in my opinion. I look forward to her gofundme and fox news appearances, as Polonius said.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/13 22:29:49
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2015/08/13 22:30:41
Subject: Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
The cake baking thing was about discrimination against customers being unacceptable when running a business as opposed to who you can prevent entering your home. Some will argue that a private business should be allowed to serve whoever who they want to or do not. The extension of that thinking is signs on the door saying 'no coloureds'. That clearly isn'r acceptable discrimination and the bakers fell the same side of that.
2015/08/13 22:34:15
Subject: Re:Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
DarkTraveler777 wrote: If one conflicts with the other it is on the adherent to figure out which wins, their faith or their occupation.
The employer also has a responsibility to respect and not discriminate against people based on their religion, where that is reasonable. I personally agree that her demands are unreasonable and that she should be out on her ass. But it's not my decision.
Remember, this isn't my argument, it is hers. I don't want to try and defend her stupid position. I was just trying to explain why it is a little more complicated than just "do it or get out", since you claimed you didn't understand.
I never said this was your argument, but I do not see the same complications you do, either. It is pretty black and white to me.
Respecting this woman's religion in terms of her position as County Clerk violates other citizens' rights. Therefore she should either ignore her religious beliefs or quit. No one is stopping her from following the tenets of her religion. She just can't impose those tenets on others if she wants to keep her job. How is that not fair for everyone?
2015/08/13 22:54:40
Subject: Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
Generally when you want elected officials 'fired' you just elect someone else next election, or someone with the granted legal authority holds them in contempt and removes them from their position.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: No one is stopping her from following the tenets of her religion. She just can't impose those tenets on others if she wants to keep her job.
This, exactly.
If her religion tells her that marriage should be strictly between a man and a woman, she can apply her religious freedom by choosing to not marry a woman.
But her freedom of religion doesn't grant her the right to dictate who anyone else should or shouldn't marry.
2015/08/13 23:30:46
Subject: Re:Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I never said this was your argument, but I do not see the same complications you do, either. It is pretty black and white to me.
Respecting this woman's religion in terms of her position as County Clerk violates other citizens' rights. Therefore she should either ignore her religious beliefs or quit. No one is stopping her from following the tenets of her religion. She just can't impose those tenets on others if she wants to keep her job. How is that not fair for everyone
I agree with you completely, and I hope that whoever is tasked with resolving this will come to the same conclusion. The only complication is that she is making a claim that her religious freedoms are being infringed. However much we might disagree with that, and find it ridiculous, she still has the right to due process of law. Even if it is pretty black and white (as you said).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/13 23:32:35
2015/08/14 00:17:38
Subject: Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
But they have to make a reasonable accommodation, not ANY accomodation. Her rights being infringed is a bit of a red herring. She is saying she literally can't do her job nor let a proxy do it on her behalf. That canot be accomodated.
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2015/08/14 00:29:34
Subject: Re:Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
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2015/08/14 00:32:28
Subject: Re:Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I never said this was your argument, but I do not see the same complications you do, either. It is pretty black and white to me.
Respecting this woman's religion in terms of her position as County Clerk violates other citizens' rights. Therefore she should either ignore her religious beliefs or quit. No one is stopping her from following the tenets of her religion. She just can't impose those tenets on others if she wants to keep her job. How is that not fair for everyone
I agree with you completely, and I hope that whoever is tasked with resolving this will come to the same conclusion. The only complication is that she is making a claim that her religious freedoms are being infringed. However much we might disagree with that, and find it ridiculous, she still has the right to due process of law. Even if it is pretty black and white (as you said).
The fact a court of law disagrees her 'religious freedoms' are being infringed on, she was allowed her due process is already and is now in contempt of multiple judgements.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/14 00:32:38
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2015/08/14 01:03:29
Subject: Re:Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
WrentheFaceless wrote: The fact a court of law disagrees her 'religious freedoms' are being infringed on, she was allowed her due process is already and is now in contempt of multiple judgements.
Where are you getting this from? There is discussion that she aught to be held in contempt for not issuing the licence. I can't find anything that says there has been a ruling, and there might still be an appeal, so it doesn't seem like the due process has concluded yet. Do you have a more up to date source?
I found a video online of her refusing a marriage. It's a bit boring but she appears at the end. Apparently, Kim Davis values the sanctity of marriage so highly, she's now been married 4 times.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/14 01:06:03
2015/08/14 01:04:33
Subject: Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
WrentheFaceless wrote: The fact a court of law disagrees her 'religious freedoms' are being infringed on, she was allowed her due process is already and is now in contempt of multiple judgements.
U.S. District Judge David L. Bunning said in his ruling Wednesday that Davis has likely violated the U.S. Constitution's protection against the establishment of a religion by "openly adopting a policy that promotes her own religious convictions at the expenses of others."
"Davis remains free to practice her Apostolic Christian beliefs. She may continue to attend church twice a week, participate in Bible Study and minister to female inmates at the Rowan County Jail. She is even free to believe that marriage is a union between one man and one woman, as many Americans do," Bunning wrote. "However, her religious convictions cannot excuse her from performing the duties that she took an oath to perform as Rowan County Clerk."
Multiple couples sued, judgement came back Wednesday saying that her reasoning isnt good eough, and even the Governor of the state has ordered her to issue licenses
Democratic Gov. Steve Beshear has told defiant clerks, who are elected, to issue licenses or resign.
She had her day in court so to speak and lost.
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2015/08/14 01:16:57
Subject: Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
This lady's gonna get canned and I wouldn't be surprised if she bankrupted her whole county in the inevitable civil suits to follow. And it serves them right for voting her in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/14 01:18:15
2015/08/14 01:19:30
Subject: Re:Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
I'm not sure that the county would be on the hook for any judgements that are inevitably going to be levied, because at this point I think it's pretty clear that she's acting outside the scope of her employment.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2015/08/14 01:23:24
Subject: Re:Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
Ouze wrote: I'm not sure that the county would be on the hook for any judgements that are inevitably going to be levied, because at this point I think it's pretty clear that she's acting outside the scope of her employment.
Maybe you're right.
I found this video from earlier last month of another Kentucky Clerk refusing to do his job on religious grounds. Not sure how this one resolved.
There's just so much wrong with this thinking that it makes me want to pull my hair out.
(P.S. sorry for exposing you all to Chris Hayes, but its a related subject)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/14 01:25:38
2015/08/14 01:26:14
Subject: Re:Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
WrentheFaceless wrote: judgement came back Wednesday saying that her reasoning isnt good eough, and even the Governor of the state has ordered her to issue licenses
Read your own source "Davis' attorneys have asked the judge for a stay, and Bunning has not yet ruled."
As I said, there hasn't been a ruling yet, and she hasn't been held in contempt (yet).
Hopefully soon.
2015/08/14 01:30:58
Subject: Re:Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
WrentheFaceless wrote: judgement came back Wednesday saying that her reasoning isnt good eough, and even the Governor of the state has ordered her to issue licenses
Read your own source "Davis' attorneys have asked the judge for a stay, and Bunning has not yet ruled."
As I said, there hasn't been a ruling yet, and she hasn't been held in contempt (yet).
Hopefully soon.
Yea it was a bit confusing, the opening said "In the judge's ruling" then said "No ruling had been made"
I think the reporter is confused themselves
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2015/08/14 01:42:54
Subject: Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
Yeah I noticed that too. I think by "ruling" he must just be referring to the stage in the process where everyone assembles for the judge's ruling, but apparently he granted a stay instead.
Though judging by his comments, I can't see them pulling anything out of the bag which will persuade him to rule in her favour. Maybe it's just more stalling to be difficult.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/14 01:43:58
2015/08/14 03:53:46
Subject: Kentucky Clerk’s Office Defies Court Order to Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses
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