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 Filch wrote:
What are the negatives of the decurion and gladius formations? I need that kind of drawback to balance out 420pts of free rhinos.

The drawback is that you're still forced to use Tactical Marines. They're still garbage compared to basically everything else you can get.

So i should suggest
Steel Brethren Formation

6 Squads of CSM
3 squads of Havocs

Units in this formation get free rhinos but additional upgrades are not free.

New LR variant.

FELLRAIDER

So, this is just wishlisting, right?

- Doom Siren as a wargear option.
- Noisemarines that do something noisy even when they aren't equipped with Sonic Weapons.
- Icons that affect warping onto the battlefield.
- A Chaos United/Undivided mark of some type.
- A better boon table and reworked Champion of Chaos.
- Thousand Sons with Aura and Mark of Tzeentch giving reroll failed saves of 1. (Give Tzeentch daemons the +1 to their daemon save instead.)
- Full Chaos Power tables (6+Primaris) with the Tzeentch table actually working to buff KSons, or attack/debuff the types of targets KSons come across.
- If Aspiring Sorceror is alive in KSon unit, they have Relentless instead of Slow and Purposeful.
- Landraider variants equipped with the new Tech of the Warp (Hades Cannons, Ectoplasma).
- I'd be good with some sort of new warp tech weapon too (or heresy tech that is still used)
- Reworked Apostles and Warpsmiths that are actually useful.
- Chosen with upgradable veteran skills to represent TEN FREAKING THOUSAND YEARS OF WAR like they used to up until the last codex.
- Mutlators that aren't Slow and Purposeful or come in larger units.
- Possessed that have a stronger base before the random abilities, so they have a purpose in an army.
- Vehicle Possession being a viable and flavourful choice.

I'm fine with completely ignoring the new renegades/red corsairs/more modern equipment aspect of things. There should be supplement that blends some chaos gear and options with more loyalist equipment later.

And if I had to list new models, we'd be here the rest of the night...

One thing that everyone seems to gloss over because it's been so terrible for so long is the following:


Chaos Defiler - 220 points
WS4 BS3 S8 AV[12/12/12] I3 A4 HP6

Type: Super-Heavy Walker
Unit Composition: 1 Chaos Defiler

Wargear:
Two Power Fists
Warpcannon
Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer
Reaper Autocannon
Smoke Launchers
Searchlight

Warpcannon: Range 36" Str8 AP3 Type: Heavy 1, Ordnance Barrage, Plasma Wave (Models must re-roll successful cover saves taken against wounds from this model)

Special Rules:
Daemon
Daemonforge
Fleet
Siege Crawler
It Will Not Die


Options:
May replace the Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer with one of the following:
Havoc Launcher: 5 pts
Power Scourge: 15 pts

May replace the Reaper Autocannon with one of the following:
Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Free
Power Scourge: 5 pts
Twin-Linked Lascannon: 15 pts

May take items from the Chaos Vehicle Equipment List

 Quintinus wrote:
One thing that everyone seems to gloss over because it's been so terrible for so long is the following:


Chaos Defiler - 220 points
WS4 BS3 S8 AV[12/12/12] I3 A4 HP6

Type: Super-Heavy Walker
Unit Composition: 1 Chaos Defiler

Wargear:
Two Power Fists
Warpcannon
Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer
Reaper Autocannon
Smoke Launchers
Searchlight

Warpcannon: Range 36" Str8 AP3 Type: Heavy 1, Ordnance Barrage, Plasma Wave (Models must re-roll successful cover saves taken against wounds from this model)

Special Rules:
Daemon
Daemonforge
Fleet
Siege Crawler
It Will Not Die


Options:
May replace the Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer with one of the following:
Havoc Launcher: 5 pts
Power Scourge: 15 pts

May replace the Reaper Autocannon with one of the following:
Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Free
Power Scourge: 5 pts
Twin-Linked Lascannon: 15 pts

May take items from the Chaos Vehicle Equipment List

yeah six hull points for 220 points not slightly ridiculous

Kharn The Bae Slayer wrote:

 Quintinus wrote:

Spoiler:

One thing that everyone seems to gloss over because it's been so terrible for so long is the following:


Chaos Defiler - 220 points
WS4 BS3 S8 AV[12/12/12] I3 A4 HP6

Type: Super-Heavy Walker
Unit Composition: 1 Chaos Defiler

Wargear:
Two Power Fists
Warpcannon
Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer
Reaper Autocannon
Smoke Launchers
Searchlight

Warpcannon: Range 36" Str8 AP3 Type: Heavy 1, Ordnance Barrage, Plasma Wave (Models must re-roll successful cover saves taken against wounds from this model)

Special Rules:
Daemon
Daemonforge
Fleet
Siege Crawler
It Will Not Die


Options:
May replace the Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer with one of the following:
Havoc Launcher: 5 pts
Power Scourge: 15 pts

May replace the Reaper Autocannon with one of the following:
Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Free
Power Scourge: 5 pts
Twin-Linked Lascannon: 15 pts

May take items from the Chaos Vehicle Equipment List

yeah six hull points for 220 points not slightly ridiculous

With the amount of S6 shooting in the game and it only being AV12, i don't think its enough hull points personally.

If I had a perfect world, I'd just finally fuse the Daemon Codex with Chaos Marines and just call it Forces of Chaos.

But if we are to just stick with CSM overall, then I'd really like them to work on Marks and things to really make them worth taking and not so much a crutch. As a Slaanesh player, I constantly find myself selecting other marks that will properly benefit the unit I'm using, though merely CALL it a Slaanesh mark. As much as I wish I could play strict Slaanesh all the way through like that, it's a handicap.

I'd like to see point drops across the board as almost everything is over costed.

I'd like our Daemon Engines to get a look at as well.

Speaking of Marks, they need to change. Basically, Marks need to be tweaked to be different for whatever unit is taking them. The global 'they do this' for everything is not good design. Slaanesh marks for example would be good for your close combat groups if you wish to swing first...but having +1 initiative on a non CC unit is pretty stupid and lazy rules writing.

If they allowed 2 spec guns in squads of 5 for tacs like the plague marines and gave us something like a razorback or a half priced rhino with half the troop capacity of 5 models. That be great.

Then I can has so many MSU with 2 special guns.

That or just make havocs into troops.

Legion formations that are filled with lots of units but have special rules that are fluffy and strong:

Thousand Sons: all shooting attacks made against thousand sons units in this formation have the "get's hot" special rule
Iron Warriors: All fortifications purchased in this formation (1-3 slots) get +1 to their armor value and cover save. In addition, any fortification may purchase a demolisher cannon for 20 points.
Alpha Legion: all units part of this formation have the infiltrate, scout, and objective secured special rules
Black Legion: Hatred and Preferred enemy (Space Marines). Gain an extra victory point for each space marine unit killed in a turn.
Death Guard: all bolter weapons (bolters, heavy bolters, etc.) have the fleshbane special rule.
Emperor's children: all to hit rolls of 6 with sonic blasters are treated as being destroyer strength rather than normal.
Night lords: all enemy units within 6" must take a morale check in order to do any action (falling back if it fails).
Word bearers: as long as the dark apostle from this formation is alive, All Daemon allies have a -4 modifier to all daemonic instability rolls.
World Eaters: All units have a 4+ invulnerable save against all shooting attacks.

Add a Honsou independent character.
Give Fabulous Bill AP:2 and fleshbane on his instant death pimpin cane.

Kharn The Bae Slayer wrote:

yeah six hull points for 220 points not slightly ridiculous

You do realize that for 75 points more, an Eldar player can get a Wraithknight? Also this model extremely large so you're not likely going to be getting cover.

Nah, this model is pretty balanced and could use some testing but otherwise, it's pretty decent.

Things that would make CSM OP imba

1) Terminators allowed to swap storm bolters for twinlinked plasma guns for 15pts, twinlinked melta for 10pts. Double flamers (not twinlinked) for 7pts. Allowing terminators to carry plasma cannons would be great. Hell, allow each terminator to carry a heavy or special weapon like op imba scatbikers.

2.) introduce a weapon called an ectoplasma flamer where its a flame template str8 ap2 ignores cover, gets hot! to put on predators, fiends, helbrutes, defilers, attack bikes if we had any, rhinos but reduce troop cap to 6.

3) upgrade all Tsons to have heavy bolters so they can shoot inferno bolters at str5 ap3 at 36".

4) Allow 3 basic marines to carry special or heavy weapons at 5 men. Ok maybe too op. 2 special or 2 heavy.

5) A gun similar to grav.

6.) Make special rules for sonic blasters to be used in close combat that force a initiative test on enemy. If failed the enemy is ws1. Like blind.

7) Allow Defiler to swap out the battle cannon to be a Destroyer battering ram in melee combat. 1 hammer of wrath hit at Str D ap2. All remaining attacks are normal close combat Dreadnaught weapons. So maybe a free swap.

8.) Allow helbrutes to take 2 heavy guns for both arms.

9) Make Preds and Vindicators into squadrons.

10.) Allow Mutilators to ride spawns as mounts.

11.) Allow spawn mounts for Terminators, marines, cultists?

12.) allow Raptors to carry 2 heavy weapons at 5 men.

13.) Create a new troops, scavenger Marines with Scout stats and special rule to blink out of game and re-appear d6 when 1 scavenger marine dies.

Give terminators access to assault cannons, oblits got that already so the line has been crossed. Also make them waaaay cheaper than SM equivalents, no access to Storm Shields and ATSKNF should be evident in the cost of the unit.

Rework all the cult marines. They are the main reason to even go CSM instead of loyalists. Changes I would like to see:
> Berzerkers +3" run, option to upgrade their rhino to an open topped transport.
> Noise marines. 1 pt reduction on marine, 1 pt reduction on weapon, blastmaster is twin linked.
> Plague marines. 2 pt reduction per model.
> Thousand sons. 3+ invul (like legion of the damned do), cheaper sorcerer by 25 pts, ability to go ML(2), 2 pts cheaper per model. Sorcerer can sacrifice rubric marines to gain warp charges.

Rework all the demon engines. Dropping them to BS 3 and having them cost so much is ridiculous, and a 5++ / demonforge does not do it justice in the slightest. Make all demon engines gain twin linked if within 6" of a warpsmith. MAke them able to gain marks. And for heaven's sake, fix the Defiler!

Fix mutilators and possessed. Or disregard possessed, they have no idea what they are supposed to be doing anyways. No idea on how one could fix mutilators.

Predators/vindicator squadrons with added benefits at 3 models, like loyalists. Also make them cheaper than loyalist ones, machine spirit should not be free.

Chaos need their own unique weapon of mass destruction akin to the grav, or they need their own super heavy. I would go for the first one. Maybe a weapon that works vs leadership???? And get more effective when fighting loyalists??? No idea on specifics.

Several things I can envision:

Modular Chaos Daemon Engines: the Heldrake has one weapon option, ditto the Forgefiend. They should have options for customization, different abilities, etc.

Cultist Trucks.

Chaos Rhinos able to replace their initial combi-bolter with a twin-linked special weapon.

Warp Talons being AP 2/Hit and Run.

Gets Really Hot Plasma:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/645491.page

Champion Of Chaos
Must issue and accept challenges. When victorious in a challenge, roll on the chaos boon table and gain the "Fearless" special rule until next turn

Obliterators & Mutilators
S/T5, units of up to 5, Land Raider dedicated transport

Warp Talons
+1A, Gain Preferred enemy against a single enemy unit, enemies must snap-fire against them on the turn they deep strike, gain a S4, AP5, Concussive, Soulblaze template as a shooting attack that gives them assault grenades against a unit they shoot that turn.

Defiler
Becomes a Super-Heavy Walker. Gets moved to LoW. Battle Cannon is replaced with rapid-fire battle cannon

Forgefiends, Mauleriends, Helbrutes, Predators, Vindicators
May take in squadrons of up to 3

It would take a while to actually type out what I want from a good Chaos Marine Codex, so I'll just link everyone to the website I setup to facilitate a project to build a codex (Actually 3 codecies) that would fit my vision.


http://chaoscodex.mgc-projects.com/

I'd love to see a proper Legion focused book, individual and balanced chapter-tactic style rules to represent all 9 legions. 30k era tech, CSM characters and VotLW should be terrifying in power compared to Loyal marines seeing as our rank and file will never compete with the glory boys. The ultimate in wishful thinking here but I'd love to just be able to buy Codex: CSM and not have to downl... err buy** a bunch of DLC from FW or BL to make them playable.

Ditch the Renegade thing, either give them a separate book or do what they should have done all along: "Want to play renegades? see C:SM and add spikes to taste."

This probably will never happen, but I'd like to see Dreadclaws & Kharydbis assault claws be more included in the main codex, rather than being a Forge World add on