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So how does this banner work with attached ICs?

It says:

In addition, all friendly models with the Ravenwing special rule in the same unit as this banner automatically pass Initiative tests when attempting to Hit & Run and roll one additional dice when determining the distance of a Hit & Run move whilst the bearer is alive.

So say I have a ravenwing command squad with this, and attached is a wolf lord, does he autopass hit and run as well since the unit has?

all friendly models with the Ravenwing special rule

Does the Wolf Lord has Ravenwing special Rule? I don't think the banner affect him.

edit: Oh wait, ok now I see the question. Let me check my rulebook, I'll be back lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok. Now that I have double check, I would say yes, the unit would pass their Hit and Run test automatically.

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule that is locked in combat can choose to leave close combat at the end of any Assault phase. If the unit wishes to do so, it must take an Initiative test.

Considering it only take 1 model with the special rule Hit&Run to do it, it means you could join a dude without hit&run and still sucessfully do it. With that in mind, the Banner affect every model but the Wolf, but he doesn't need to have the benefit since he's not ''required'' for the Hit&Run to occur. He will follow the unit he is attached to.

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

And that confirm that he is part of the unit when attempting the Hit&Run test.

I thought so thank you for the reply

The wold lord does not benefit from the banner. The wolf lord is not a model with the ravenwing special ability in the same unit.

The wolf lord does not have the ravenwing special ability. The banner ability also specifies it affects models in the unit with the ravenwing specual rule, and not just models in the unit like hit and run/stealth/stubborn/etc

The unit would be limited by the wolf lord who cannot auto hit and run, and as part of the unit cannot leave, the unit cannot benefit from automatically passing hit and run if the wolf lord, who does not have the ravenwing special ability is attached.

Here we go again.

This rule as quoted specifies models. Ravenwing models automatically pass hit and run. Only one model needs to have hit and run for an entire unit to be able to use hit and run. They would automatically pass hit and run with or without any attatched ICs, it makes no difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
The wold lord does not benefit from the banner. The wolf lord is not a model with the ravenwing special ability in the same unit.

The wolf lord does not have the ravenwing special ability. The banner ability also specifies it affects models in the unit with the ravenwing specual rule, and not just models in the unit like hit and run/stealth/stubborn/etc

The unit would be limited by the wolf lord who cannot auto hit and run, and as part of the unit cannot leave, the unit cannot benefit from automatically passing hit and run if the wolf lord, who does not have the ravenwing special ability is attached.

About what I'd expect from you.

Exactly - it is obvious he is extremely biased and makes no significant contributions other than spamming his negativity.

Guys please keep in mind that Rule One is Be Polite. Thanks!

I was actually thinking that, RAW, models don't take H&R tests. Units do.

I agree that the intention seems clear, but the way the rule is written is terrible.
Why specify models when the unit takes the test? especially considering that the unit cannot have the banner and not have H&R

You only need 1 model with Hit&Run to pass the test. (as specified in the rule I linked earlier).

Extanding that, it's normal to think that you only need 1 model with auto pass Hit&Run to pass the test, since he could be with all non Hit&Run unit and still be able to do it.

Then, I'm pretty positive that the banner make the unit auto pass hit&Run, even with IC attached to it, whatever they are.

As above. Nothing requiers all models in the unit to have the rule, simply as soon as one has the rule, H&R is automatically passed.

I think the problem is that the rule says "models" with the rule pass h&r tests, but models dont take h&r tests, units do. This obviously doesnt matter when the entire unit is made up of rw models, but when you throw in a model that doesnt have any of the relevant rules in question, nothing tells us how this should work. Yes the unit can hit and run bc the sr requires only one model in the unit to have the rule, but since the IC counts as the unit for all rules purposes, read: for better or worse, you no longer have a model with ravenwing trying to perform a h&r. So why is he allowed to auto pass, when the IC rules even specify he doesnt benefit from the units SRs? We literally have no RAW to know how this works as its a bungled mess (mainly bc the rules for ICs were written by an apparently hammered toddler).

A unit must be composed of models. You're over thinking it.

Overlord - the rules state he does not gain the rule. Not that he cannot benefit from someone else having the rule.

I pick basic model A with I4 to hit and run. They do so automaically. The unit now h&r. Done

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters

It make it clear to me that he can benefit from the banner.

The IC is definatly part of the unit, but the IC is not a model with the ravenwing rule.

the banner requires from its rules as written, that it affects the unit, but it is only affecting models in the unit with the ravenwing rule.

this banner benefits units, that are made of models with the ravenwing rule.

not units that contain models with the ravenwing rule.

IS the wolflord in the unit? Yes

Is the wolflord a model with the ravenwing rule? no

When joined to the unit is the wolf lord a model with the ravenwing rule? no.

In addition, all friendly models with the Ravenwing special rule in the same unit as this banner automatically pass Initiative tests when attempting to Hit & Run and roll one additional dice when determining the distance of a Hit & Run move whilst the bearer is alive.

the wolf lord absolutely rules as written, even with the IC rules gains no benefit from the above as it is not a model with the ravenwing rule, which is required by the rule. It does not say it benefits the unit if it contains models with ravenwing, the rule as written states it benefits MOEDLS with the ravenwing rule in the same unit as the banner. The Wolflord is not a MODEL with the RAVENWING rule in the same UNIT. It is a MODEL without the ravenwing rule in the same UNIT.

Whether or not an unit can auto pass hit and run if one of the models in the unit does not have a rule allowing it do so is a different rules question.

Whatever dude.

whatever dude, indeed.

It says models with the ravenwing rules benefit from the banner, correct

the h&r rules states if 1 model has h&r the whole unit does and if that one model passes the check the WHOLE unit passes. So all it needs is one model part of the unit with the ravenwing special rule to auto pass.

Youre wrong blaktoof. That's just as simple as that own up to it, doubt you will though

 namiel wrote:
It says models with the ravenwing rules benefit from the banner, correct

the h&r rules states if 1 model has h&r the whole unit does and if that one model passes the check the WHOLE unit passes. So all it needs is one model part of the unit with the ravenwing special rule to auto pass.

Youre wrong blaktoof. That's just as simple as that own up to it, doubt you will though

look...

you are not very good at reading.

I never said the unit could not benefit, I said the wolf lord does not benefit.

I even said

Whether or not an unit can auto pass hit and run if one of the models in the unit does not have a rule allowing it do so is a different rules question.

so yeah I am not saying the unit can't do it, I am just saying the wolflord doesn't get to auto pass.

If the unit can say "hey this one guy is auto passing so the unit hit and runs automatically" then it doesnt matter that the wolf lord does not have auto pass. I don't recall off the top of my head in this edition if you can pick a single model, or the best value for hit and run or if you have to pick the lowest value. In many editions you picked the lowest Value of I for hit and run for example.

Yeah hit and run says specificaly if 1 model has it the whole unit has it, but the whole unit does not have auto pass. So does hit and run say you get to pick any model to hit and run with, or the I test is taken at the best or lowest?

The wolf Lord does not auto pass. However, it is irrelevant if he auto passes or not, as once one model passes h&r the whole unit gets to make the h&r move.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The wolf Lord does not auto pass. However, it is irrelevant if he auto passes or not, as once one model passes h&r the whole unit gets to make the h&r move.

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule that is locked in combat can choose to leave close combat at the end of any Assault phase. If the unit wishes to do so, it must take an Initiative test. If the test is failed, nothing happens and the models remain locked in the fight.

I don't see anything in the hit and run rule that says you can pick a model, or use any value for the initiative test.

This is similar to jet pack units for example. Is a jet pack model in a unit of models without jetpack still a jetpack? Is an IC without a jetpack joined to models with jetpacks a jetpack unit?

Do the rules for rolling Stat(initiative) tests for units say you get to pick the value? The rules for ICs clearly show that unless a special rule states it affects the unit (yes the unit has HnR, no the special rule from the banner does not affect the unit as it affects MODELS with the ravenwing rule- which the wolf lord IC is not) So yes the unit has Hit and Run, but no the unit does not have a rule that gives the unit automatic passes. Some of the models may, but the unit does not.

You cannot apply a model rule to a model that does not have the rule, and you cannot say the whole unit has a rule when by its own writing it does not apply to the unit, but to models with the ravenwing rule in the unit. Which is not a unit rule. it is a model rule that is limited to models with X in the unit with the banner, instead of models within x range, or a model with this item, etc.

The rules for characteristics tests in the basic rules only say "models sometimes will be called to make a characteristic test..." so there is no reference as to what to do when an unit makes a test.

That you can nominate a model in the unit to take the test, is 100% made up. There is no such rule, if you think there is please quote it.

Hit and Run requires the unit to test, there are no rules for making characteristic tests for units. And one of the models in this case does not get auto pass. Now are you limited by the model who can't auto pass or can you ignore it? I cannot find a rule saying you can ignore that the IC does not auto pass, and I cannot find this rule that you pick a model to make the hit and run test with- since you are told the unit tests. The unit does not have a unit rule that lets it auto pass, some of the models do, but it is not a unit rule.

If I have an IC that has EW, and join another IC to that IC, they do not both have EW by default of being in the same unit, because EW only affects the model with the rule, just like the banner only affects models with ravenwing.

Nope, let's keep it polite, motyak

Well, if anything, I would be biased toward the unit auto passing.

the fact is, blaktoof does make one good point. the H&R rule specifically states that the UNIT must take the test, but the rules for characteristic tests only tells you how a single model takes the test.

I'm guessing nosferatu's fix is to change the hit and run rule to allow a model to test, in line with the characteristic test rules.

I personally would do it the other way around and change the characteristic test rules to allow a unit to take a test.

How would that Rule change work if the different Models have different Initiatives?

This rule is proof positive that GW has people writing books who don't know the core rules. For example:

In addition, all friendly models with the Ravenwing special rule in the same unit as this banner...

Is there any way for there to be an enemy model in the unit that I'm missing somewhere? It can't be a joined allied Independent Character, since only Battle Brothers can join and they're already defined as 'friendly units' for all rules purposes. IMHO, this rule is FUBARed and honestly I wouldn't begin to try and claim I knew what their intentions were for this rule.

JinxDragon wrote:
How would that Rule change work if the different Models have different Initiatives?

I actually just noticed this

When a single test is required for the whole unit, use the highest relevant characteristic in the unit.

which to me suggests that, if we were to assume that the test is taken by a single model. it must be taken by the i5 Wolf Lord, and therefore cannot be auto passed anyway

Tell me why you're running 2 chapters who fething hate eachother in the same list, let alone a Wolf Lord rather than a better Wolves IC?

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
Tell me why you're running 2 chapters who fething hate eachother in the same list, let alone a Wolf Lord rather than a better Wolves IC?

He's probably not........

It's just an example

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
Tell me why you're running 2 chapters who fething hate eachother in the same list, let alone a Wolf Lord rather than a better Wolves IC?

Rules questions are often a "what if" scenario, to work out how to handle situations, rather than being only applyable to that specific instance - for example, the exact same question could occur by adding any other character to the unit, including a DA Interrogator Chaplain (who doesn't have the Ravenwing rule).

For once, I think I'm with Blaktoof on this, the rules for taking Initiative tests state you use the highest I value in the unit - the Wolf Lord is I5 compared to the I4 of the Black Knights, so you would use his I stat, which wouldn't auto-pass. I'd read it as still getting the extra distance though, as that appears a different condition relying only on the banner bearer being alive.

As Ghaz pointed out, the banner rule could be written in a much simpler / clearer format, so I'm not sure Which direction the RAI is.