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 Yaraton wrote:
Has anyone actually seen in real life a Tau Manta assembled and painted? It seems like one of those legendary kits, like the former Imperial Walls that look good on the FW website but when you imagine paying for it, putting it together and painting you probably going to say "no, thanks".

A guy in our local club bought one a few years ago. He let someone else assemble it for him. Just the amount of Resin dust after he was finished was.... EPIC

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I love how Perturabo solved his personal protection needs by having a bunch of big robots follow him around with shields and hammers.

Both a) great in and of itself and b) a great illustration of how he really only has one method to solve problems -- throw tonnage at it.

I really like seeing how much some of the fallen Primarchs' fates seem tied to them being ill-fitting tools of war, but the reality is almost none of the Primarchs are particularly warlords first.

deadairis wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I love how Perturabo solved his personal protection needs by having a bunch of big robots follow him around with shields and hammers.

Both a) great in and of itself and b) a great illustration of how he really only has one method to solve problems -- throw tonnage at it.

I really like seeing how much some of the fallen Primarchs' fates seem tied to them being ill-fitting tools of war, but the reality is almost none of the Primarchs are particularly warlords first.

I don't think Perturabo only has one method to solve problems. In fact, I'd say the one real depiction we have of him in the Horus Heresy novels is that he's arguably one of the most brilliant of the Primarchs at actual warfare. I'd agree with Primarchs not being warlords first. In his case he's a craftsman. He applies that same methodology to warfare as he does to creating his mind boggling tech.

But yes, it's awesome that he created robot bodyguards because he cant' trust anyone. Boy do those primarchs have trust issues.

I disagree - I think that most of the Primarchs are in fact Warlords first, but that's not all they are.

Maybe Lorgar wasn't?

And maybe...er...

...that's it?

Magnus?

I think it is more that different primarchs need dirrerent sorts of protections based on their fighting styles. Angron is a berzerker, so he needs warriors that get in close with him. Guilliman is more a strategist, so he needs a mix of advisors. Alpharius needs spymasters. And Pertuabo is a siegemaster, so he needs bodyguards who can protect him from heavy artillery shells if need-be.

 Hulksmash wrote:


But yes, it's awesome that he created robot bodyguards because he cant' trust anyone. Boy do those primarchs have trust issues.

They were described as also being "gifts" to Pertuabo's commanders. While it's useful to have a giant robot bodyguard, they are still slaved to Pertuabo, not the commander and serve as a watchman as well as a bodyguard.

Magnus seemed like the Primarch with the least trust issues

I can't wait to see what the Arlatax will look like. Love the mech stuff they already released.

 Hulksmash wrote:

deadairis wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I love how Perturabo solved his personal protection needs by having a bunch of big robots follow him around with shields and hammers.

Both a) great in and of itself and b) a great illustration of how he really only has one method to solve problems -- throw tonnage at it.

I really like seeing how much some of the fallen Primarchs' fates seem tied to them being ill-fitting tools of war, but the reality is almost none of the Primarchs are particularly warlords first.

I don't think Perturabo only has one method to solve problems. In fact, I'd say the one real depiction we have of him in the Horus Heresy novels is that he's arguably one of the most brilliant of the Primarchs at actual warfare. I'd agree with Primarchs not being warlords first. In his case he's a craftsman. He applies that same methodology to warfare as he does to creating his mind boggling tech.

But yes, it's awesome that he created robot bodyguards because he cant' trust anyone. Boy do those primarchs have trust issues.

I love the idea of Perturabo being a craftsman first, but it's hard to believe that if that was really his dream it woudn't have been done. Guilliman built an empire. Lorgar before his fall couldn't restrain his zeal (or after, but I'm trying to stay within the 'not fallen' range of behavior). I think if Perturabo had taken all those mock-ups and actually built them, if he had applied that sense of delicate but precise craftsmanship to his warfare, I'd buy into him being a craftsman. He's really not, though. There's no one stopping him from building these things, no one telling him how to wage war. He's a craftsman as much as a lawyer who has dozens of unsubmitted scripts is a tv writer -- he's not.
And the bodyguards just illustrate the same method that, as far as we know, he applies to warfare -- throw shells, bodies, and iron at something until it breaks. Even before his fall he treats his own men as disposably as he treats shells or steel; making his most trusted cadre of guardians literally replaceable steel shells only drives the point home. Dorn is no less crazily comitted to how he does things -- see Sigismund and Dorn's relationship -- but Dorn is fundamentally results, not process, orientated. He'd rather be wrong about method and improve than be right and stagnate; Perturabo would rather make slave robots to defend himself than address the fact that as a Primarch he still doesn't have a cadre of his own gene-sons whom he truly trusts.


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 Alpharius wrote:
I disagree - I think that most of the Primarchs are in fact Warlords first, but that's not all they are.

Maybe Lorgar wasn't?

And maybe...er...

...that's it?

I'll go through how I see them:

The Lion: Knight Errant. Almost pure Warlord, but lacking in the real rubber-to-road personal skills that you really need for that (takes after Dad). Arguably the best straight-up 'take this world/system and move on' of the Primarchs, depending on author.
Fulgrim: Bon vivant.
Perturabo: Craftsman.
The Khan: Warlord.
Leman Russ: Raider.
Rogal Dorn: Architect.
Konrad Curze: Prophet.
Sanguinus: 1:1 fighter.
Ferrus Mannus: Tribal elder.
Angron: Gladiator.
Roboute Guilliman: Politician.
Magnus the Red: Scholar.
Horus: Warlord.
Lorgar: Philosopher.
Vulkan: Wise man.
Corax: Assassin.
Alpharius: Spy/secret police/spy.

I think each of them would have been happier (or at least less likely to fall) in those roles. Few if any of them really are born to and cherish warfare except as a means to an end.

Perturabo built his own bodyguard mainly because of his paranoia and distrust of his own legion.

deadairis wrote:

I'll go through how I see them:

The Lion: Knight Errant. Almost pure Warlord, but lacking in the real rubber-to-road personal skills that you really need for that (takes after Dad). Arguably the best straight-up 'take this world/system and move on' of the Primarchs, depending on author.
Fulgrim: Bon vivant.
Perturabo: Craftsman.
The Khan: Warlord.
Leman Russ: Raider.
Rogal Dorn: Architect.
Konrad Curze: Prophet.
Sanguinus: 1:1 fighter.
Ferrus Mannus: Tribal elder.
Angron: Gladiator.
Roboute Guilliman: Politician.
Magnus the Red: Scholar.
Horus: Warlord.
Lorgar: Philosopher.
Vulkan: Wise man.
Corax: Assassin.
Alpharius: Spy/secret police/spy.

I think each of them would have been happier (or at least less likely to fall) in those roles. Few if any of them really are born to and cherish warfare except as a means to an end.

How on earth did you manage to get Lorgar down as 'philosopher', but Night Haunter as 'prophet'?

Lorgar should be a "Theologian".

Konrad as a 'prophet' makes a certain amount of sense, doesn't it?

I think so!

I was going to say "vigilante." Or maybe just "murderer." The prophetic part is a little toned down by the FW narrative.

It was certainly a big part of his 'older' background - be a shame if it is gone now...

deadairis wrote:
And the bodyguards just illustrate the same method that, as far as we know, he applies to warfare -- throw shells, bodies, and iron at something until it breaks.

If that's the most efficient solution then why not? Perturabo saw war as a mathematical problem to solved. In essence it was a maximization problem - how to achieve the objective for the minimum expenditure of resources. In his calculus he would have measured the value of his men's lives using the same metrics as any other resource and would have weighed this against other finite resources - ammunition, equipment, fuel, time.

deadairis wrote:
Even before his fall he treats his own men as disposably as he treats shells or steel; making his most trusted cadre of guardians literally replaceable steel shells only drives the point home.

That's because his own men were disposable. Iron Warriors geneseed had one of the lowest rejection rates of any of the legions and so they were able to replace losses faster. The rate of attrition vs the rate of replacement would have entered into Perturabo's unsentimental calculus - he expended the lives of his men at a faster rate than other legions because he could afford to do so. To him, the less costly they were to produce, the less their lives were worth.

 Alpharius wrote:
It was certainly a big part of his 'older' background - be a shame if it is gone now...

It's not gone, he still has visions of the future, but they're very personal to him, he doesn't really share them like a prophet would.

I'm fairly certain that Perturabo HAD a bodyguard made up of marines until his flagship the Ironblood was boarded by Imperial fists who made it all the way to his personal chambers, at which point he personally wiped the IFs out. He did trust his sons to guard him until they failed so horribly it almost cost him his flagship and life. Granted by this point he's already been declared a traitor by the imperium, wiped out his homeorld, was was already paranoid to top it all off. I couldn't really blame him at that point for implementing the iron circle.

Perturabo wanted to be a statesman and build (which he's been shown to be very good at!), but ultimately he was the best at tearing things down. I honestly think if the fist and IW had been reversed in roles during the heresy, that the fist wouldn't have been able to crack the imperial palace and the traitors would have paid a much higher price. My 2 cent

All that aside, my IW are definitely getting some of this awesome Iron circle action. The models are just too nice to not get atleast one. The only thing that concerns me is the long thin shaft of the thunder hammer, it look so liable to break.

It would be nice if GW opening a store in your state meant that you could do things like order FW products and have them shipped free to the store, rather than just "We have a storefront in the state, so now we have to charge you sales tax on top of our own VAT

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

deadairis wrote:
And the bodyguards just illustrate the same method that, as far as we know, he applies to warfare -- throw shells, bodies, and iron at something until it breaks.

If that's the most efficient solution then why not? Perturabo saw war as a mathematical problem to solved. In essence it was a maximization problem - how to achieve the objective for the minimum expenditure of resources. In his calculus he would have measured the value of his men's lives using the same metrics as any other resource and would have weighed this against other finite resources - ammunition, equipment, fuel, time.

deadairis wrote:
Even before his fall he treats his own men as disposably as he treats shells or steel; making his most trusted cadre of guardians literally replaceable steel shells only drives the point home.

That's because his own men were disposable. Iron Warriors geneseed had one of the lowest rejection rates of any of the legions and so they were able to replace losses faster. The rate of attrition vs the rate of replacement would have entered into Perturabo's unsentimental calculus - he expended the lives of his men at a faster rate than other legions because he could afford to do so. To him, the less costly they were to produce, the less their lives were worth.

I think you've got the long and short of it 100% right. I was at least attempting not to call Perturabo's way right or wrong, and I think you did a better job describing what I see as 'his way' than I did. If he really intended to be a craftsman, than he would have had to have taken the more subtle realities of, well, craftsmanship into account in how he waged war. Instead he was a master bean counter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It was certainly a big part of his 'older' background - be a shame if it is gone now...

It's not gone, he still has visions of the future, but they're very personal to him, he doesn't really share them like a prophet would.

Yeah, especially as of Unremembered Empire.


I would note that I mean Prophet more in the Mad Prophet/Man on the Mountain sense than I do the potentially implied cult leader of Prophet of (X). Someone else called out already how what KC does flows from those prophecies, that's what I was aiming at. He's a vigilante as much as he's a warlord -- that is to say, tremendously skilled at it by dint of blood and power, but I don't think that's the crux of him. I don't think that's his "word" or what defines him when all else is stripped away. If he lived in a universe where no one did anything wrong to anyone else, I don't know that the KC would see the need for, well, himself.

Whereas as much as I love the tragic epic of Sangunius, if there was no one for him to slay I think he would be lost. Although chewing on it I think that there's something to be said for Sangunius as ... I don't know, primitive faith healer? That might just be because we don't really see the horrors the Red Angels reap on screen very often, just hear them compared to legions such as the World Eaters in terms of sheer brutality.

@Nicocrx --I certainly wouldn't shoot down Lorgar as Theologian. Taking a few seconds to read definitions I think you're more right than I was with Philosopher. If he found out he lived in a world where there was no divinity I think he'd be torn apart.

@deadiris

The idea that Perturabo wasn't a master craftsman because he never built anything (one of your earlier posts) is factually incorrect. The amphitheater that hosted the Council of Nikea was constructed by Perturabo and was intended as a place of cultural significance and learning but, like most things regarding Perty and his Legion, was misused by the Imperium. It is routinely described as a monumental architectural achievement. Furthermore, he was responsible for the development of all kinds of weapons, buildings and other technologies in his early years on Olympia - and here's a quote on that latter topic; "....the boy plying his way both as a fighter for hire and as an artisan of phenomenal talent despite his great youth....." One of the great ironies of Perturabo's character is that he designed so many things that would have been supremely beneficial to the Imperium culturally - the words of authors from GW and FW basically - but his superiors only ever saw him as a tool for destruction. The books pretty much flat out state that the Battle for Terra would have gone differently if Perturabo had been the one to fortify the Imperial Palace, so much so that it would have been a massacre and a clear Imperial victory. He was forced into destroying and whatever he did build was used for the wrong purpose - Perturabo was disgusted that the aforementioned amphitheater was used to trial one of the few Primarchs he called friend (Magnus) rather than what it was intended for. Ergo, he was a master craftsman and that was tied with learning as his greatest pleasures, and unlike some Primarchs (namely Angron) he actually would have had a proper place in the Imperium post Crusade as a result. As an aside, here's another quote from Book 3 regarding the subject; "...even from the beginning was his genius noted not simply for war, but also invention....from his chambers a constant stream of blueprints and discoveries sprung, encompassing everything from revolutionary new machines, to treatises on architecture and production methods, and even ground-breaking works on medicine and astronomy..."

As for how he wages war, Book 3 has the following to say; "....none could fault his ability to deconstruct any campaign and plot the most direct course to victory regardless of the cost..."
Also; "(the Emperor) in Perturabo he found a new weapon for the arsenal of the Great Crusade; a warlord and general whose savage might was only eclipsed by his razor-keen intellect. To Perturabo each battle and each campaign was no more than a problem to be objectified, deconstructed and overcome...."
And; "(Perturabo) Having observed the unfolding battle, his superhuman intellect had discerned patterns and vulnerability amid the chaos and din of war, and had calculated the precise point at which to attack to the greatest effect."
As well as; "(Perturabo) Like a vengeful god he ploughed into the heart of them.....As the Black Judges reeled in shock and sought to realign their counter-attack against this new and terrible threat, the gears of Perturabo's plan turned and the elite heavy weapons support units of the 4th Legion.....advanced in precisely co-ordinated attack patterns that predicted their foes' response with preternatural accuracy."

He's far more than a "master bean counter" and I'm amazed that you would think otherwise. He's clearly a master strategist and tactician that simply did not care about what price he had to pay to attain victory, a mentality that greatly contributed to the disdain he and his Legion drew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for what's coming out tonight, I'm expecting it to be either Retribution or the updated red books - if we're lucky it will be both. I'm expecting the Mastodon and the Stormbird to both be in March at the earliest.

"Victory is won by the precise application of superior force at the point of maximum vulnerability. All else - deft manoeuvres, honour, glory, skill-at-arms -- all are worthless trivia in comparison, no matter what pretty lies my brothers may spout to the contrary." - Perturabo (Mechanicum - Taghmata army list)

Hmm... Mauleed was Perturabo. Who knew?

That pretty much just reinforces what I said. He coordinates his armies both on a local and global scale with incredible precision and he knows where and when to attack. I don't have the quote ready but Angel Exterminatus shows he has an almost unparalleled eye for detail when it comes to warfare, and he knows how to apply his genius to it. However, he's among the most ruthless Primarchs and he was willing to pay any price for total victory in any scenario even if the odds were stacked massively against his forces. Ergo, yes, when Dorn said "he throws bodies at walls" that does ring true to an extent, but saying he's just a "master bean counter" is objectively wrong as he's still counted among the most intelligent military minds of the Primarchs. It's kind of required if you are described as the unparalleled master of siege warfare.

Caederes wrote:
@deadiris

The idea that Perturabo wasn't a master craftsman because he never built anything (one of your earlier posts) is factually incorrect. The amphitheater that hosted the Council of Nikea was constructed by Perturabo and was intended as a place of cultural significance and learning but, like most things regarding Perty and his Legion, was misused by the Imperium. It is routinely described as a monumental architectural achievement. Furthermore, he was responsible for the development of all kinds of weapons, buildings and other technologies in his early years on Olympia - and here's a quote on that latter topic; "....the boy plying his way both as a fighter for hire and as an artisan of phenomenal talent despite his great youth....." One of the great ironies of Perturabo's character is that he designed so many things that would have been supremely beneficial to the Imperium culturally - the words of authors from GW and FW basically - but his superiors only ever saw him as a tool for destruction. The books pretty much flat out state that the Battle for Terra would have gone differently if Perturabo had been the one to fortify the Imperial Palace, so much so that it would have been a massacre and a clear Imperial victory. He was forced into destroying and whatever he did build was used for the wrong purpose - Perturabo was disgusted that the aforementioned amphitheater was used to trial one of the few Primarchs he called friend (Magnus) rather than what it was intended for. Ergo, he was a master craftsman and that was tied with learning as his greatest pleasures, and unlike some Primarchs (namely Angron) he actually would have had a proper place in the Imperium post Crusade as a result. As an aside, here's another quote from Book 3 regarding the subject; "...even from the beginning was his genius noted not simply for war, but also invention....from his chambers a constant stream of blueprints and discoveries sprung, encompassing everything from revolutionary new machines, to treatises on architecture and production methods, and even ground-breaking works on medicine and astronomy..."

As for how he wages war, Book 3 has the following to say; "....none could fault his ability to deconstruct any campaign and plot the most direct course to victory regardless of the cost..."
Also; "(the Emperor) in Perturabo he found a new weapon for the arsenal of the Great Crusade; a warlord and general whose savage might was only eclipsed by his razor-keen intellect. To Perturabo each battle and each campaign was no more than a problem to be objectified, deconstructed and overcome...."
And; "(Perturabo) Having observed the unfolding battle, his superhuman intellect had discerned patterns and vulnerability amid the chaos and din of war, and had calculated the precise point at which to attack to the greatest effect."
As well as; "(Perturabo) Like a vengeful god he ploughed into the heart of them.....As the Black Judges reeled in shock and sought to realign their counter-attack against this new and terrible threat, the gears of Perturabo's plan turned and the elite heavy weapons support units of the 4th Legion.....advanced in precisely co-ordinated attack patterns that predicted their foes' response with preternatural accuracy."

He's far more than a "master bean counter" and I'm amazed that you would think otherwise. He's clearly a master strategist and tactician that simply did not care about what price he had to pay to attain victory, a mentality that greatly contributed to the disdain he and his Legion drew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for what's coming out tonight, I'm expecting it to be either Retribution or the updated red books - if we're lucky it will be both. I'm expecting the Mastodon and the Stormbird to both be in March at the earliest.

What book makes clear how the Imperial Palace would have gone with Perturabo on defense? Is it the mock-up battles he and his own legionnaires do? I don't recall, but I am fairly certain it's a much more open question. I don't disagree with any of your points about what Perturabo has the potential for, but when you get down to it, the ideas that someone is both a master strategist and tactician and doesn't care what price they have to pay for victory aren't able to live in peace with each other. That's why pyrrhic victories are different than 'real' victories. Each Primarch is one of a set of 20 of raw ability in the entire galaxy, so winning by huge margins is really the cost of admission. How they do so is -- and when your defining method is to win 'regardless of losses,' that's not really how one expects 'craftsmanship' to be described.

You could argue it just means 'skill in a particular craft,' but that doesn't really help here. All the Primarchs are 'craftsman' by that standard. I think any of us who are experts in our own fields at least feel they are craftsman even if their field is traditionally boring, and I'd include accounting/bean-counting in that. Well-done finance work is it's own beauty.

So what craftsman needs to mean to be useful here as a term distinct from competence is something more about artistry married with skill. While there is a particular artistry about finding one thing and just doing that one thing with all the force at your disposal, it's not a typical description. A more typical representation of pursing victory, even very competently, with no regard for the cost is madness, hubris, or just plain self-serving stupidity and arrogance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eowPka21BNc

There's a simple test to be done here: if Perturabo is the craftsman and what-not he saw himself as, why don't his conquered worlds reflect that? The extent of his 'superiors' for the majority of his existence are The Emperor and ... that's about it. Lorgar had time to build; Guilliman had time to build; even Angron had time to normalize a non-trivial piece of surgical work across his whole Legion. If what truly drove Perturabo was the craftsman that he was certainly technically capable of being, than he would have built. His compliant worlds would be works of, well, craftsmanship.

Do want to stress that it isn't that Perturabo is incompetent in what he does. Like all of the Primarchs, his hobbies are a normal beings lifelong apex skills. That noted, in a universe as morality-tale driven as 40k/30k can be, Perturabo's greatest enemy is himself. He can have as many awesome designs as he likes hidden in his non-Euclideanly-bound labyrinth lair, but who cares if he doesn't build them and foster them?

Russ didn't go rogue, or at least any roguer, because his ambitions were sharply limited. Dorn didn't go rogue because his sense of obedience and duty was structural to him. Guilliman didn't go rogue because the 500 worlds were the proof that he was better left free to run his own mini-Empire than made to dream smaller to ensure the Empire proper felt safe. Each of these three had to give up something, swallow some core value of their own, in order to both serve their own passions and serve the Emperor. The rogue Primarchs seemed to fail to be willing to give up anything, failed to be willing to swallow any pride or other value, and/or failed to be able to simultaneously understand how serving their own passions and the Emperor could be one path leading them forward, not two paths tearing them apart. That doesn't make it less sad, but it certainly makes it less tragic.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Book-Six-Retribution

Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh........

Excellent!