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Can someone please help me determine the value at which a TWC model will need to roll for toughness?

The profile they have are flat-out T5, right?

Tyty!


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(I mean specifically the Fast Attack choice)

Characteristic tests are always against the "modified" value, unless they specifically state otherwise.
There used to be several that were against unmodified, but now I can't think of any that are current.

TWC are always T5 unless another effect is in affect - we could 'guess' at their previous toughness, but it's irrelevant.
If a character on a bike was forced to take a toughness test, that would also be against the modified (T5) stat.

If a model/unit has an item in their wargear that modifies a stat the modifier is always already included.

But that may not even matter, i am away from my current books but at least the last book did not have a thunderwolf mount in the twc entry(iirc they still do not) so none of the twolf mount wargear rules apply anyways.

Thunderwolf Cavalry most certainly do have a Thunderwolf Mount listed in their wargear.

It says, "thunderwolf mount" under "Wargear" section within the Roster Entry...

I admit I was actually trying to better understand how it seems the TWC have BASE Stats of 5 Strength & Toughness, and isn't a purchaseable option...

Such as an IC would.


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I mean, seriously, there's not a single type of unit with 3 base attacks In the codex.... yet the "argument" is that it is an upgrade aka modified unit.

=\

I don't think I really understand your difficulty (or if you still actually have one!) - is there something else that confuses you?

Well, thunderhammers are said to be according to RAW: s9, not s10 (the argument being S4+1 == S4x2+1, instead of what seems to be a BASE s5 statline w/ x2 == S10).

Been reading all over themz interwebs and that is the motivation behind this OP, really....


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Sorry if I went astray....

Yeah, I think starting this thread by asking about how Thunderwolf Cavalry should be tested against in terms of their Toughness (which for something like Instant Death is calculated against modified Toughness, i.e. T5) when wanting to find out whether they should be S9 or S10 with a Thunder Hammer (for which the doubling of Strength should be done for the unmodified stat, with other modifiers coming after) sort of does lead one astray

What you're asking though has been discussed to death several times on this forum and others. I would recommend searching, reading each side of the argument and coming to your own conclusion.

Personally I think the argument for S10 Thunder Hammers requires ignoring the rules for the unit's wargear.

Ah yes the t-hammer issue...

Oh before I get to that; like I said, away from my books at the moment and wasn't sure about the wargear.

Now the hammers/fists. There is no "ignoring the rules of the wargear" the model has a S5. The t-hammer/p-fist strikes at S10.

But should it? There are 3 ways to look at that:
1 the bonuses are already added to the profile, the S5 was an oversight it should be S4(5) with a caveat to use the base and add 1 when doubling/halving -or- should be written as S4+1.
2 the bonuses are not already included(will doublecheck the mount entry when I get home for caveat about units/models that start with it) and therefore gets to add the bonuses again(making it a moot point with the hammer/fist they can only go to 10 anyways.
3 The old debate that had FAQs going both ways; the S bonus for the mount is to the profile and a permanent bonus even to characters that take the mount(so alway S5, 10 for doubling)

From Codex Space Wolves:

In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).

Yeah.

I was beginning this (and hoped to end it there) in questioning instant death or toughness tests, to seek other ways to understand the deeper truth behind this... in the attempt to not trigger this already -beat the dead horse- argument.

I don't mean to recreate the argument so as to make this a bad thing lolol I mean it haha!

To me, it seems the unit is a unique unit, one that has man & beast as one entity.

Unlike purchasing an option.

Hiwev, space marine bikes of old could get instant death at S8 not S10... which showed that tho the bike adds a sense of resilience, the man riding it is still essentially the dame human.

Similarly, the mans arm doesn't get larger - it's the general -effect- of man&beast vs opposer that FEELS like s5 (Logan Grimnars vehicle offers its own attacks, even at their own initiative value and rending too.

Le sigh... I just talked myself into a sad place of s9 twc.

As a space wolves player, it is a sad day haha


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(R which the toughness tests and instant death, here in 7th doesn't even matter lol!)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Now the hammers/fists. There is no "ignoring the rules of the wargear" the model has a S5. The t-hammer/p-fist strikes at S10.

That's only if you stop at the point of looking at the profile, either as a result of genuine unknowing or wilful ignorance.

As players we know (or should) the entirety of the rules, and that the strength value we refer to has had an increase of 1 applied to it.

But should it? There are 3 ways to look at that:
1 the bonuses are already added to the profile, the S5 was an oversight it should be S4(5) with a caveat to use the base and add 1 when doubling/halving -or- should be written as S4+1.
2 the bonuses are not already included(will doublecheck the mount entry when I get home for caveat about units/models that start with it) and therefore gets to add the bonuses again(making it a moot point with the hammer/fist they can only go to 10 anyways.
3 The old debate that had FAQs going both ways; the S bonus for the mount is to the profile and a permanent bonus even to characters that take the mount(so alway S5, 10 for doubling)

We are explicitly told the bonus is included in the profile for models with a Thunderwolf Mount as standard, so irrespective of how it is shown in the profile, in reading the rules for Thunderwolf Mount we know the model's Strength value has been modified.

=,(

The Roster Entry states "Wargear: Thunderwolf Mount"

If GW were saying, 'this model has a wolf that the SW rides' it'd be obvious as the picture (and purchaseable box) make it so.

To mention "Wargear: Thunderwolf Mount" is to state, 'look at the rules for this' as well....


Man, I really wish it weren't so.


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¿Guess I should be grateful for the 3A base SW infantry?

lul

It's silly to hash it out on here, yet again, since the vocal advocates will never come to a consensus, and especially since all major event organizer declare it as Str 10 and that usually trickles down to the FLGS level.

Agreed. didn't want to start this up again.


Type "s9 thunderwolf" in Google and find endless debate.

I hope some understanding was gleaned from this (beyond lil ol me)

Okay then let it go.

The debate about strength modifiers on ICs using thunderwolves is here.

In the case of toughness tests, I think you're always using the modified T value anyhow, so there's not really any ambiguity - they are simply T5 and that's that.