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I'm writing my own home made version of 40k and especially when I started writing down ideas for how to rework CSM, my first instinct was to give them more mobility. But it occurs to me that giving more mobility options to everyone was not the best idea. How will footslogging orks work?

So, now I'm looking for other peoples' thoughts on how to create an environment where slower assault units do not need mobility upgrades to be effective.

The reason they have to be fast is 1) because shooters are fast (fast skimmers, bikes, elder jetbikes, jet packs) and 2) most units can't take more than one or 2 turns of shooting from the kind of firepower that is common these days and still be effective or even alive in some cases.

To fix it, you have to reduce the speed of shooting units so they can be caught and reduce their firepower so the assaulters can make it to them.

I personally think that mobility options are very important in the game. Being able to move models (without it being to remove them as casualties) feels great, so being able to move in more phases (running/jet-thrusting) is a lot of fun, charging is excellent, and even piling in during an opponent's turn is cool. Moving around is what makes the game dynamic and gives a sense of "speed" to the gameplay.

Even if you cut model's actual movement rates down, but let them move more frequently, I think you'd still have a winning combination.

Footslogging is extremely unpopular, and I despise it with my Orks. It takes a long time to get anywhere and do anything. Sure when they do something they can be very effective (not much survives encounters with 30 boyz), but when it takes them all game to get into that position...

The only real way around this is to find ways for slower blobs of units to have more opportunities for player interaction other than "I need to remove more casualties". Maybe footsloggers can act in the psychic or assault phases in other, more unique ways? Maybe they can even act during an opponent's turn in some way?

I would suggest giving some benefit to infantry specifically. High movement is important, and its what wins games, but it also invalidates infantry which is sad.

Remove relentless from bikes for starters. I've been brewing this for awhile and once you look at each codices bike units you see it fixes quite a bit of the problems in the current meta.

Then I'd give CSM the option for assault rhinos at increased cost and with a restriction (disordered charge lets say) since they don't have pods and are largely combat oriented.

Having infantry act in the assault phase maybe similar to jetpack units is a good idea worth looking into further. Something to put them on equal footing in a game dominated by movement and shooting output.

Theres plenty of other ways you could go with this but thats a start.

I think one way to make footslogging or other slow units able to assault is to increase cover saves. Perhaps give a 4+ non-ignorable cover to any unit that runs.

That would solve almost all the issues with walkers as well.

Except that catching fast units is still difficult and high RoF access is so insane now due largely to relentless. Limiting that rule in general would be a huge boon to units like terminators.

Make going fast a negative.
just like vehicles.

Personally i would prefer a simpler everyone has a set movement. and people can double time (double move) for no shooting. (in place of rolling dice for random run distance.

high mobility vehicles like bikes should be able to turbo boost as well for say 3 moves with no turning. or 45 degree move ark.

and no shooting.

I think that there's a fundamental problem with movement modes in 40k. Namely, some movement modes are just almost entirely superior to others. There's nearly no drawback for being on a bike. The only drawbacks are that you take dangerous terrain tests (assuming you're not White Scars or Decurion), and you can't get in a transport. In exchange, you get Relentless, Turbo-Boosts, 12" regular move, Hammer of Wrath, and you aren't slowed by difficult terrain.

The problem isn't the points cost though. It's not that people aren't paying enough for these bonuses (though they probably aren't paying enough), it's that there's a tipping point where as soon as one is just fundamentally better than the other, then one is competitively always the "correct" option to take given points cost.

For example; Land Raiders vs Land Raider Crusaders. They're about the same cost, but the Crusader is simply better in most battlefield situations. Why would you take the Land Raider when the Crusader will do a better job? Eventually though, if you kept pushing down the points on the Land Raider, it'd be better choice because of efficiency.

Now, compare that to Space Marine tactical marines, and whether they should take a Plasma Gun or a Meltagun. Neither is objectively "better", because while the Meltagun is fantastic against vehicles at close range, and can be fired before assaulting, the Plasma Gun gets more shots and can be effective at longer ranges. Sure the Plasma Gun is a bit more expensive, but the two are very useful at very different things. It makes you want to have both. Even if Meltaguns were free, there would be times that you might pay the points for a Plasma Gun, just because it's so much better in the right situation.

That's not the case with infantry hordes. They're either worth it, or they're not, and there's very few situations where you want both. Anything infantry can do, bikes can do too. Often, the bikes do it even better. As such, they're a better choice to have. What can you give basic infantry that makes them better in specific situations to everyone else?

If cover slowed movement down to D3+3 instead of D6 movement so moving through ruins and the like didn't slow you down quite so much. Walkers just need to auto move 6" and run 6"

Things like bikers are fine in the rules department but they need to be better balanced in price. Gak like scatter lasers and grav guns need to be way more expensive given how powerful they are. If anything needs to be changed for the core rules then it would be to make it so bikes snap shoot when moving more than 6".

I'm sure the price of the grav gun is how many justify the price of the WK. Never mind lists that don't get grav guns (CSM) or the general brokenness of the WK as a whole package.

I can't get too far down on bikes until MCs are no longer king of the game.

I would say as a start just thinking about how bikers would work in real life:

-half movement in ruins/forests
- -1 to dangerous terrain tests
-can't go up and down levels
-should have to make a crash roll if they get hit (even if they make their save) similar to a flying monstrous creature having to roll to crash into the ground
-shouldn't be able to turn on a dime - maybe 90 degree turn at most similar to flyer since theyre moving so fast

Infantry should get +1 cover when in cover due to being able to duck/creep around (maybe if they don't run). Infantry should get a 'stand and shoot' ability where if they don't move they get +1BS since they are carefully aiming their gun

The OPs question highlights the poor game design ethos that 40k is written with.And it seems to effect the way lots of 40k players think about the game.

They ask.
How to nerf X?
How to boost Y?
How to stop Z being too important/over powering?

When GOOD game design would ask,' how to balance X,Y,and Z?'

To get the game play of 40k to be as good as it can be, you have to find a way of making mobility, firepower, assault and morale equally important/worthwhile.

IMO, that means making each one work in its own way to deliver results.And NOT letting any two compete for the same function.

Part of the problem though is that people want to be able to field all bikes, or all foot, or all tanks, or all terminators, or whatever else. So if the game is designed so different unit types have complementary specialties that don't overlap people's themed, one note armies don't work.

I'm not taking a position on whether all bikes, terminators or whatever should be a reasonably effective option, just pointing out a challenge in developing the rules. Someone will be upset no matter what you do.

 Powerfisting wrote:
I'm writing my own home made version of 40k and especially when I started writing down ideas for how to rework CSM, my first instinct was to give them more mobility. But it occurs to me that giving more mobility options to everyone was not the best idea. How will footslogging orks work?

So, now I'm looking for other peoples' thoughts on how to create an environment where slower assault units do not need mobility upgrades to be effective.

Personally, I like the idea of answering this differently with each army. Tyranids have venomthropes to give a decent cover save to everyone. Slaanesh has her run move bonus. Orks have weight of bodies. Come to think of it, most assault units already have some answer to the delivery system question. Orks and 'nids have a combination of cover, feel no pain, and numbers. Many assault units are already fast for a reason. Anything imperial can slam down in a drop pod to make sure they have a chance at assaulting stuff. Harlequins are moderately fast and have shadowseer support. Chaos marines are notoriously bad about delivery systems, but that's more a problem for them specifically. Letting things assault the turn they disembark from transports ala 5th edition would help many armies quite a bit. What units/armies are you having trouble with specifically? Those footslogging orks you mention work by sticking them with a painboy and/or making them part of a green tide, though the newest ork book isn't great in general.

I also kind of like the idea of having "commands" you can give to squads. Things like, "spread out" giving your squad a 5+ invul against blasts and templates for the duration of the enemy turn, but denying you the chance to run/shoot on the following turn. Sort of like weaker jinking for infantry.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Powerfisting wrote:
I'm writing my own home made version of 40k and especially when I started writing down ideas for how to rework CSM, my first instinct was to give them more mobility. But it occurs to me that giving more mobility options to everyone was not the best idea. How will footslogging orks work?

So, now I'm looking for other peoples' thoughts on how to create an environment where slower assault units do not need mobility upgrades to be effective.

Personally, I like the idea of answering this differently with each army. Tyranids have venomthropes to give a decent cover save to everyone. Slaanesh has her run move bonus. Orks have weight of bodies. Come to think of it, most assault units already have some answer to the delivery system question. Orks and 'nids have a combination of cover, feel no pain, and numbers. Many assault units are already fast for a reason. Anything imperial can slam down in a drop pod to make sure they have a chance at assaulting stuff. Harlequins are moderately fast and have shadowseer support. Chaos marines are notoriously bad about delivery systems, but that's more a problem for them specifically. Letting things assault the turn they disembark from transports ala 5th edition would help many armies quite a bit. What units/armies are you having trouble with specifically? Those footslogging orks you mention work by sticking them with a painboy and/or making them part of a green tide, though the newest ork book isn't great in general.

I also kind of like the idea of having "commands" you can give to squads. Things like, "spread out" giving your squad a 5+ invul against blasts and templates for the duration of the enemy turn, but denying you the chance to run/shoot on the following turn. Sort of like weaker jinking for infantry.

Well, I was reading a thread somewhere about the power creep these days and someone mentioned how in 3rd/ 4th ed, CSM were slow and that was their thematic draw back, but once they got into combat, they really performed, or something to that effect. while delivery options are neat, and I plan on incorporating different delivery options into my army lists, but I don't want to shoehorn random transports into every army list either. I think it would be cool and flavorful to have a marine army that isn't the fastest, but gets around that by totally dominating in assault.

I'll echo what other's have said about breaking down movement based on different types of terrain. A lot of the general movement rules based on unit types in 40k seem ass backwards to me

Realistically, infantry on foot move about the same speed across pretty much any terrain (in the grand scheme, running full sprint is only a few mph faster than wading through snow), and so they should be the most consistent of all units, able to pick their way through dense rubble or buildings without needing to go around it. If anything, they should favor being in dense terrain as much as possible, thats their jam. Infantry in the open are dead infantry.

Things like bikes or cavalry and fast units on the other hand should excel is open terrain, but be absolutely flounder in dense terrain. It should either slow them down to at LEAST infantry speed, or be outright inaccessible altogether. 40k's only attempt in this aspect is the lame excuse that in dangerous terrain checks.

In most games their is a certain set of stats that each faction has and relies on. if you ever played any kind of online space empire game you know what im talking about There's 3 main categories: Speed, Dakka, Armor. Assigning a points value of 1-3 to each category you should never have a unit scoring 7 on this scale, have 1-2 that score a 6 and everyone else scoring 5s.

you have Super fast units with light dakka and little armor

average speed, average dakka average armor

Slow speed, heavy dakka, heavy armor

The current problem is that certain armies (IE Eldar) have way to many units scoring 6s and have some scoring 7s which makes them OP as hell.

Now don't get me wrong, Warhammer 40k is more complex then this, range, psychic phase, and the plethora of other rules and what not the point though remains valid.

Ok, so what I am getting is that the reason speed is important currently is because fast units happen to be fast and also have no drawbacks. Say, hypothetically in my own game, that I merged vehicle damage/ armor penetration into the same charts for damaging infantry so everything is on the same page. Now tanks and skimmers are on the same page as bikes and jet bikes and the like. I could potentially give bikes and jet bikes the same penalties for moving very fast as vehicles have. And then toning down relentless is another thing that was mentioned. I already had plans for reining in on who gets relentless, but would toning down the rule itself help? I fear that slow units like terminators/ oblits/ centurions kind of deserve full--on relentless and would be hurt a lot the main rule was changed.

Termies and such are fine with relentless, cent less so but they are expensive and need delivery.

Its literally bikes that need to lose the rule altogether. Give it to attack bikes maybe, thats it. Simple and accomplishes quite a bit for such a small change.

Now eldar have to diversify a bit although not much because scatdevs are still crazy good with option to turbo and jink.

Crons can't assault after firing but did they ever? Marines with grav/plas couldn't fire then assault either. Good. Orks unaffected, DE same and so on.

Its a good change.

you have Super fast units with light dakka and little armor

average speed, average dakka average armor

Slow speed, heavy dakka, heavy armor

This makes too much sense. It seems they tried to adhere to something resembling that with some armies then threw it out the window with a select few.

dominuschao wrote:
Termies and such are fine with relentless, cent less so but they are expensive and need delivery.

Its literally bikes that need to lose the rule altogether. Give it to attack bikes maybe, thats it. Simple and accomplishes quite a bit for such a small change.

Now eldar have to diversify a bit although not much because scatdevs are still crazy good with option to turbo and jink.

Crons can't assault after firing but did they ever? Marines with grav/plas couldn't fire then assault either. Good. Orks unaffected, DE same and so on.

Its a good change.

you have Super fast units with light dakka and little armor

average speed, average dakka average armor

Slow speed, heavy dakka, heavy armor

This makes too much sense. It seems they tried to adhere to something resembling that with some armies then threw it out the window with a select few.

Non-relentless bikes would just make it so cents and skyhammer devs are the only viable platform for grav. No thanks unless you get rid of Riptide and DK as well.

Non-relentless bikes would just make it so cents and skyhammer devs are the only viable platform for grav. No thanks unless you get rid of Riptide and DK as well.

Only viable? NO. But able to take full advantage while moving ya and as it should be. Plus it helps your constantly lamented scatbike problem. And DKs, please. Those things haven't been good for so long. Riptides are step up but still far from busted even in triplicate.

dominuschao wrote:

Non-relentless bikes would just make it so cents and skyhammer devs are the only viable platform for grav. No thanks unless you get rid of Riptide and DK as well.

Only viable? NO. But able to take full advantage while moving ya and as it should be. Plus it helps your constantly lamented scatbike problem. And DKs, please. Those things haven't been good for so long. Riptides are step up but still far from busted even in triplicate.

Scatbikes can just park and fire 36" if necessary, so it really hurts them far less than an 18" salve weapon. DKs become good against BA without grav bikers.

The main change to balance speed is not allowing bikes a 360 firing arc. They should be able to fire forward in a 45 degree arc w mounted guns. 180 arc for hand mounted guns. Generally for all models without tentacles or turrets should have that restriction. And non jetbikes and steeds shouldn't be able to reach upper levels without stairs. Isn't that an old rule they got rid of? Beasts can jump so they should be able to.