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Hey guys, I've been looking at the Eldar formations and the Guardian Host in particular seems a little high in unnecessary units. Three Guardian squads is doable, although one more than I would normally go with. Vypers, War Walkers and Support Weapons is where I begin to question it. This is basically an entire army under the old method of building. All three of these units are ones I hadn't even considered buying (surprise surprise, that's obviously what it's for) and now I may be stuck with them.

Compounding this is my neurotic impulse to fill out the squads. I NEED one of each, but realistically I'll buy 3 of each so it "feels" right. I'm already including Guardians so it doesn't seem like I'm just spamming the amazing units, is the Windrider formation just a better choice?

Daemonkin would like a word with you about unnecessary tax units.

If you want to make the most "optimal" Eldar list, just take a CAD and any formations you want. However, I feel that the benefit of the 6" run with the Warhost is worth it for the right list. Making the Guardian host work is about getting the most mileage out of all the other units.

Three units of Guardians gives you three good-size scoring units that put out a lot of firepower at close range.

War Walkers are great support weapon platforms. Kit them out for Anti-Tank with Bright Lances or Bright Lance+EML and they can do solid work.

Vypers are underrated. Keep them relatively cheap and use them to flank with masses S6 firepower.

Vaul's Wrath is a harder sell, but they are fortunately very cheap. Two Shadow Weavers are just 60 points for barrage artillery with monofilament goodness.

You don't take the Warhost because you want the best Eldar list possible. You do it because you want to be fluffy or to support your infantry-focused Aspect Warriors.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
If you want to make the most "optimal" Eldar list, just take a CAD and any formations you want. However, I feel that the benefit of the 6" run with the Warhost is worth it for the right list. Making the Guardian host work is about getting the most mileage out of all the other units.

Three units of Guardians gives you three good-size scoring units that put out a lot of firepower at close range.

War Walkers are great support weapon platforms. Kit them out for Anti-Tank with Bright Lances or Bright Lance+EML and they can do solid work.

Vypers are underrated. Keep them relatively cheap and use them to flank with masses S6 firepower.

Vaul's Wrath is a harder sell, but they are fortunately very cheap. Two Shadow Weavers are just 60 points for barrage artillery with monofilament goodness.

You don't take the Warhost because you want the best Eldar list possible. You do it because you want to be fluffy or to support your infantry-focused Aspect Warriors.

I agree with a lot of this. You're going to want an Avatar, that's the secret sauce for the warhost. If you have the models and the points, max out the guardians and give each squad a warlock. Most places the primary terrain is ruins, so after you slide in a farseer (preferably Eldrad) then the bad guys are looking at facing 60, 8ppm guys with rending guns and a 2++ rerollable coversave. Yeowza.

For the batteries I'd take the D-cannon. It gives you a decent chance against armor and very durable stuff like Wraiths that otherwise can get into assault with your dudes.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Daemonkin would like a word with you about unnecessary tax units.

Deamonkin has no taxes, they have sacrficial pawns.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
If you want to make the most "optimal" Eldar list, just take a CAD and any formations you want. However, I feel that the benefit of the 6" run with the Warhost is worth it for the right list. Making the Guardian host work is about getting the most mileage out of all the other units.

Three units of Guardians gives you three good-size scoring units that put out a lot of firepower at close range.

War Walkers are great support weapon platforms. Kit them out for Anti-Tank with Bright Lances or Bright Lance+EML and they can do solid work.

Vypers are underrated. Keep them relatively cheap and use them to flank with masses S6 firepower.

Vaul's Wrath is a harder sell, but they are fortunately very cheap. Two Shadow Weavers are just 60 points for barrage artillery with monofilament goodness.

You don't take the Warhost because you want the best Eldar list possible. You do it because you want to be fluffy or to support your infantry-focused Aspect Warriors.

I agree with a lot of this. You're going to want an Avatar, that's the secret sauce for the warhost. If you have the models and the points, max out the guardians and give each squad a warlock. Most places the primary terrain is ruins, so after you slide in a farseer (preferably Eldrad) then the bad guys are looking at facing 60, 8ppm guys with rending guns and a 2++ rerollable coversave. Yeowza.

For the batteries I'd take the D-cannon. It gives you a decent chance against armor and very durable stuff like Wraiths that otherwise can get into assault with your dudes.

except so many of the competitive lists use support platforms.... also EML on warwalkers is imo the biggest waste. scatter lasers imo and get other AA

I've had no issues with the 1 vyper, 1 war walker, and 1 support platform I've been forced into.

The 6" run is absolutely worth that. In the mean time, I've found ways of using those things which have been at least reasonable.

The worst tax in Guardian hosts is the 1 Warlock Conclave in the Windrider host. That thing is basically useless. You don't want a unit of Warlocks for only 1 Farseer, that's not enough Farseer powers to be useful. So if you want psychic shenanigans, you need more Farseers anyway, which will come from a CAD or a Seer Council. Either way, your Farseer isn't going with that Warlock Conclave.

Warlock Conclaves on jetbikes are never worth their cost.

However, the Windrider host is the least likely to actually want the Warhost benefit, as bikes can't run. If you want to feature a lot of jetbikes, you're better off with a CAD.

I turn the vaul's support battery from a tax into an expensive but worthwhile choice, and get 3 D-cannons.

2x Shuriken Cannon Vyper is actually very points efficient - not a unit I'd normally take but hardly a rough tax

Ditto for 2x Brightlance on my Walker

I think it's important to not just take the vanilla load out - that's a tax. But it's also important to not load up on expensive vehicle upgrades - that's a waste.

Required units are one of GW's way to sell models that no one buys. Very few people played possessed before Slaughtercult. I'm guessing the is same was true of Vypers, War Walkers and Support Weapons. What units are required for Decurion?

eosgreen wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
If you want to make the most "optimal" Eldar list, just take a CAD and any formations you want. However, I feel that the benefit of the 6" run with the Warhost is worth it for the right list. Making the Guardian host work is about getting the most mileage out of all the other units.

Three units of Guardians gives you three good-size scoring units that put out a lot of firepower at close range.

War Walkers are great support weapon platforms. Kit them out for Anti-Tank with Bright Lances or Bright Lance+EML and they can do solid work.

Vypers are underrated. Keep them relatively cheap and use them to flank with masses S6 firepower.

Vaul's Wrath is a harder sell, but they are fortunately very cheap. Two Shadow Weavers are just 60 points for barrage artillery with monofilament goodness.

You don't take the Warhost because you want the best Eldar list possible. You do it because you want to be fluffy or to support your infantry-focused Aspect Warriors.

I agree with a lot of this. You're going to want an Avatar, that's the secret sauce for the warhost. If you have the models and the points, max out the guardians and give each squad a warlock. Most places the primary terrain is ruins, so after you slide in a farseer (preferably Eldrad) then the bad guys are looking at facing 60, 8ppm guys with rending guns and a 2++ rerollable coversave. Yeowza.

For the batteries I'd take the D-cannon. It gives you a decent chance against armor and very durable stuff like Wraiths that otherwise can get into assault with your dudes.

except so many of the competitive lists use support platforms.... also EML on warwalkers is imo the biggest waste. scatter lasers imo and get other AA

Who said to take EML on the warwalkers? Definitely take EML on the guardians, where they are free. That's another reason to max out the guardians, you'll have 6 free EMLs, which is a considerable amount of AAA or AT, or even anti-light or medium infantry. Plus the larger squads can make more use of mysterious objectives and psychic powers like forewarning, etc. I'd agree scatters are pretty good on the walkers.

 Silverthorne wrote:

Who said to take EML on the warwalkers? Definitely take EML on the guardians, where they are free. That's another reason to max out the guardians, you'll have 6 free EMLs, which is a considerable amount of AAA or AT, or even anti-light or medium infantry. Plus the larger squads can make more use of mysterious objectives and psychic powers like forewarning, etc. I'd agree scatters are pretty good on the walkers.

Do they get all heavy weapon platforms free or just one per Guardian unit? I thought the formation rules stated '..can take a heavy weapons platform..'?

Yeah the wording is "a heavy weapon platform", so I would play one free platform per unit.

The wording is 1 platform per 10 guardians, hence each full 20 man squad could have 2 platforms, so 6 total platforms if each is a full squad of 20. And yes deff take EML in the guardian squads. It gives them something to shoot each turn, lol. Also back toe the OP, I do nto think it is a heavy tax. I pretty much always run 3 war walkers with SL, guiding them is awesome. I also run 3 shadow weavers for 90 points, and it is a good way to hide a farseer in T7. And I normally only take 1 vyper, who honestly almost always survives because no one wants to shoot it, so it normally just kills infantry and tries to clain objectives, and for 50 points he almost always at least gets his points back. I do not have my guardians at full squads of 20 yet, to many other projects but that is my goal. And I always take an avatar with this list. So I dont really see it as a huge tax, it is not a tournement worthy list generally, but it is a fun flgs competative list that allows you to use a ton of Eldar units that you would normally not use.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Warlock Conclaves on jetbikes are never worth their cost.

I literally laughed out loud! This is the funniest thing I have seen today on the forum!

You have never faced a fully kitted council on bikes I take it... 10 of them with multiple seers and maybe baharroth...

that is no joke...

bluestang10 wrote:
The wording is 1 platform per 10 guardians, hence each full 20 man squad could have 2 platforms, so 6 total platforms if each is a full squad of 20. And yes deff take EML in the guardian squads. It gives them something to shoot each turn, lol. Also back toe the OP, I do nto think it is a heavy tax. I pretty much always run 3 war walkers with SL, guiding them is awesome. I also run 3 shadow weavers for 90 points, and it is a good way to hide a farseer in T7. And I normally only take 1 vyper, who honestly almost always survives because no one wants to shoot it, so it normally just kills infantry and tries to clain objectives, and for 50 points he almost always at least gets his points back. I do not have my guardians at full squads of 20 yet, to many other projects but that is my goal. And I always take an avatar with this list. So I dont really see it as a huge tax, it is not a tournement worthy list generally, but it is a fun flgs competative list that allows you to use a ton of Eldar units that you would normally not use.

The exact wording is:

Our time of need: Units of guardian defenders from this formation can take a heavy weapons platform (pg112) at no points cost instead of the points cost listed on their datasheet.

There is definitely no mention of 1 per 10 guardians. At first glance it may look like you can get multiple per squad, but due to the wording "a heavy weapons platform" you definitely only get one per squad.

 Massaen wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Warlock Conclaves on jetbikes are never worth their cost.

I literally laughed out loud! This is the funniest thing I have seen today on the forum!

You have never faced a fully kitted council on bikes I take it... 10 of them with multiple seers and maybe baharroth...

that is no joke...

He did mention that they are only worth it with more Farseers, which a guardian host can not get by default. You have to take a CAD to make the conclave useful. A Seer Council comes with it's own warlock conclave so that doesn't help the tax conclave from the guardian host.

 Dalek Sec wrote:
Required units are one of GW's way to sell models that no one buys. Very few people played possessed before Slaughtercult. I'm guessing the is same was true of Vypers, War Walkers and Support Weapons. What units are required for Decurion?

Lol, I actually ran all of the above even before daemonkin/ codex craftworld.
But I suck at competetive builds, and for the eldar I opted for a Ulthve list with focus on guardians and their warmachines.
That said, both Vypers and warwalkers has been really strong units for most of my games, and I would not likely build a list without them.
Really glad my standard list fit right into the guardian formation.

(posessed though, not wort their points, ever.)

I do think the warhost is a transparent attempt to sell more types of kits.

But the CAD itself is better than ever, now that we can use Aspect Host formations to free up slots. Just take the minimal core choice of a windrider farseer + 2 squads of windriders, and you're free to build almost any conceivable Eldar force.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
I do think the warhost is a transparent attempt to sell more types of kits.

But the CAD itself is better than ever, now that we can use Aspect Host formations to free up slots. Just take the minimal core choice of a windrider farseer + 2 squads of windriders, and you're free to build almost any conceivable Eldar force.

The thing is, I feel like the Warhost's benefits are worth the tax of having to build your army in a certain way (that just so happens to be very lore-friendly and not OP). The automatic 6" Battle Focus can make Footdar a lot more powerful and mobile. Guardian squads are surprisingly durable due to their number of bodies, and they are cheap enough for MSU scoring shenanigans. None of the units in the guardian Battlehost are bad, just that there are better units to be found elsewhere. But thanks to the internal balance of the eldar codex, you can still take units like Vypers and Vaul's Wrath and make them work in an army.

Rant:
Poor poor Eldar, one of their formations is sub par. How dare they do such a thing to our delicate race!

Tyranids have 18 formations, one of which is playable, a second kinda looks like it could be worth it maybe and the rest make the army even worse than it already is.

/rant

Play your tax units and get free weapons or don't play them and don't get the free weapons. For me it is hard to see how a walker with battle focus and 2 scatter lasers for the price of the war walker is "a tax unit" but I guess with the rest of the eldar codex being what it is you might as well consider it.

Have no issues with the Guardian Battlehost; flexible and fun (and surprising too!). Paired with an Aspect Host and a Wraith Knight, it can do work. In fact, I won a string of local tourneys with those three elements. I only run one Vyper, but max out on artillery and war walkers.

Only 1 (one) weapon platform is free. If you want 2 in a 20-man unit, you pay for the second one.

Lately, I'm finding the Guardian Battlehost is well complimented by Crimson Hunter(s).

The Windrider Host is poorly implemented. I am not likely to ever play it.

The exact wording is:

Our time of need: Units of guardian defenders from this formation can take a heavy weapons platform (pg112) at no points cost instead of the points cost listed on their datasheet.

There is definitely no mention of 1 per 10 guardians. At first glance it may look like you can get multiple per squad, but due to the wording "a heavy weapons platform" you definitely only get one per squad.

 Massaen wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Warlock Conclaves on jetbikes are never worth their cost.

I literally laughed out loud! This is the funniest thing I have seen today on the forum!

You have never faced a fully kitted council on bikes I take it... 10 of them with multiple seers and maybe baharroth...

that is no joke...

Go ahead and re-read what I wrote since you clearly skipped most of it.

Or I'll just summarize here. The Warlock Conclave that comes with the Windrider Host is not optimal or desired as it will not provide you with all or even most of the necessary pieces to field a unit of Warlocks in a productive manner.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Rant:
Poor poor Eldar, one of their formations is sub par. How dare they do such a thing to our delicate race!

Tyranids have 18 formations, one of which is playable, a second kinda looks like it could be worth it maybe and the rest make the army even worse than it already is.

/rant

Play your tax units and get free weapons or don't play them and don't get the free weapons. For me it is hard to see how a walker with battle focus and 2 scatter lasers for the price of the war walker is "a tax unit" but I guess with the rest of the eldar codex being what it is you might as well consider it.

Well, I was bemoaning the monetary cost as much (or more) than anything else. I love the Guardian models, though I can't quite explain why. Just something about them even when I was younger is a big part of what drew me to 40K in the first place. I honestly have no clue why it took me this long to start playing Eldar.

War Walkers are a unit I've never intended on buying and never looked into. I kind of figured that they were similar to the Dreadnoughts, Sentinels or Deff Dreds of my other factions; pretty cool looking, but overall a bit of a dud. It appears that this isn't so, however. They are much faster and can put out much more ranged damage.

Anyway, I know bitching about Eldar in any way doesn't exactly win me any popularity contests. Then again why should I care about being popular with you?