Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So other than a small 750pt game with some "special" campaign rules, I've never had to face the Eldar. Well I'm going up against them this weekend. I was hoping to get a couple questions answered.

1) what exactly is a scatter bike and why is it such a hot topic?

2) how are their airplanes? Primarily AV11 or AV12?

3) do they have their own psychic powers or do they only have what's in the BRB?

4) I'm fielding an 1850 Ravenwing Army, how hosed am I?

"what exactly is a scatter bike and why is it such a hot topic? "

It's a 27 pt troop T4 3+ save jetbike movement with a 36" gun that fires 4 S6 AP 6 shots. It burns down everything AV 12 or less as well as most MCs, and all meqs. Oh and it can move, shoot, move as well, so you don't even get LOS on it on your turn.

Crazy Jay wrote:
So other than a small 750pt game with some "special" campaign rules, I've never had to face the Eldar. Well I'm going up against them this weekend. I was hoping to get a couple questions answered.

1) what exactly is a scatter bike and why is it such a hot topic?

2) how are their airplanes? Primarily AV11 or AV12?

3) do they have their own psychic powers or do they only have what's in the BRB?

4) I'm fielding an 1850 Ravenwing Army, how hosed am I?

The Scatter Laser Jetbike ("Scatbike") is a S6 AP6 Heavy 4 36" gun mounted on an Eldar jetbike chassis for 27 points. If you don't think that's severely undercosted, you might have a bad understanding of math.

AV11/12? Hah! Eldar only have AV10. The Crimson Hunter is deadly against flyers and tanks, and the Hemlock Wraithfighter chews through everything else.

Eldar can take Divination, Telepathy, or the Runes of Fate a.k.a. the table of re-rolls. The primaris is like Prescience, but at 24", Warp Charge 1, and only works with shooting attacks.

How screwed your Ravenwing are depends on whether or not you brought a 2+ re-rollable cover save. If you didn't, and your Eldar opponent is going full cheddar, you don't stand a ghost of a chance (you don't stand much of a change against full-cheddar Eldar even if you do).

I've got an "against Eldar" question: running daemonkin, wouldn't Skull Cannons either rolling in from reserve or deep striking in be really strong against Eldar vehicles? 36" large blast ignores cover S8 AP5, seems like a pretty powerful tool to remove Eldar models from the table.

 andysonic1 wrote:
I've got an "against Eldar" question: running daemonkin, wouldn't Skull Cannons either rolling in from reserve or deep striking in be really strong against Eldar vehicles? 36" large blast ignores cover S8 AP5, seems like a pretty powerful tool to remove Eldar models from the table.

Against infantry, yes, It would put out sufficient wounds to kill most Eldar squads, aprt from those with 3+ saves. Jetbikes would be harder, as they have a 3+ save as well.

Against vehicles, no. The Wave Serpent has the Serpent Shield, which means you need to glance it down to kill it. All eldar tanks have the same armour as the Wave serpent, so you only have a 50% chance of penetrating.

I am saddened by this revelation. I really wanted to field a handful of skull cannons and have them be useful.

 andysonic1 wrote:
I am saddened by this revelation. I really wanted to field a handful of skull cannons and have them be useful.

They can be useful against infantry in most cases, as it would let your Daemons charge as though they had grenades. It's against vehicles that the Skull Cannon fares poorly, as it doesn't have the AP to oneshot vehicles or put the hurt on heavy infantry or MCs.

Good luck.

simple you arrive, tell him your not playing the elder army anymore and leave, never to return.

the eldar codex is broken broken broken with potentially the best units in pretty much every category out of every codex at their disposal (hq, troops, heavy, lord of war, and elite) you have no chance at all of beating them beyond blind luck or your opponent suddenly developing a brain injury that leaves him a vegetable.

its why i refuse to play them anymore; and would sooner forfeit the finals of a tournament than ever face them because its an exercise in futility

Lol, for sure the eldar codex is crazy good and the best book out there but in time you'll learn the best ways to fight them.

Just take a little extra time when fighting them to go through as many plays in your head as possible before committing to one.

Bring grav and good jink saves ( dark shroud)

Good luck dude!

Jetbikes are easy first blood. Take advantage of that!

 Wilson wrote:
Lol, for sure the eldar codex is crazy good and the best book out there but in time you'll learn the best ways to fight them.

Just take a little extra time when fighting them to go through as many plays in your head as possible before committing to one.

Bring grav and good jink saves ( dark shroud)

Good luck dude!

Jetbikes are easy first blood. Take advantage of that!

yes their also hopelessly boring as matches dont involve skill rather its a lot of math. eldar players often have things calculated down to raw statistics and if you dont favor well in the game of odds chances are hes going to math you to death.

The most easy way to face the eldar is ban they from the game. They have too much cheese to play against them and have fun at the same time. Wargames are made for having fun no matter if you play causal style or competitive style.

Angron-Khan wrote:
The most easy way to face the eldar is ban they from the game. They have too much cheese to play against them and have fun at the same time. Wargames are made for having fun no matter if you play causal style or competitive style.

You don't need to ban them man. It's clear they are the better book and therefore you are on the Backfoot but you can still pull out a win if you stick to cover and play conservatively. Smart play will reward you, just practice.

The tears in this thread are so delicious and funny.

Seriously, if you have your 2++ re-rollable you can hold your own easy BUT there is one thing that can screw you.

If he has a Farseer that rolls Perfect Timing. Kill that guy first. Absolutely first, put everything you have into that single guy.

Next kill the Reapers because they will munch through your bikes.

Third target is the Wraithknight if any. Don't sweat the D shots. Its only two shots and you have a cover save. Stay out of assault and wear it down.

Scatt bikes can hit hard with volume of fire but against a 2++ re-rollable? Not that scary. In assault they will die horribly.

The Crimson Hunter is a good flyer for sure but the Hemlock is scarier because it can kill units without firing. The Hemlock has D weapons but they are blasts. Every turn it jinks it can't fire. Exploit that if needed. The trick is the Hemlock is a psyker and has a -2LD bubble. Causing a squad that is too close to the edge to flee straight off the board is an easy way to bypass armor, cover, FnP and everything. Don't hug your table edge when the Hemlock is around.

Do not listen to the whiners and haters. They gave up instead of trying to think outside the box.

I play a Ravenwing player every now and then. They are always good matches.

Good luck.

Lots of good advice in this topic. I'll be running quite a bit 2+ re rollable jinks. I'd like to think I run a very stable strategy so while I can give the Eldar respect, I won't fear them. I wish I had a copy of their summery sheet. GW should make all summery sheets free online. It's not enough to run an army of off but it'd be nice if when someone says a unit and a gun, I could reference them myself.

2+ re-rollable jinks - meet template D weapons and Nightspinners.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
2+ re-rollable jinks - meet template D weapons and Nightspinners.

I've met very few guys who take nightspinners! DS wraithgaurd are an issue but only for one turn. Once they deploy and they aren't touching anything else so sensible separation of units is key.

 Wilson wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
2+ re-rollable jinks - meet template D weapons and Nightspinners.

I've met very few guys who take nightspinners! DS wraithgaurd are an issue but only for one turn. Once they deploy and they aren't touching anything else so sensible separation of units is key.

DS Wraithguard are actually a boon to fight, imo. I played against it once. They came in, obliterated a unit of Immortals, and were then swiftly executed by Destroyers. Did they make their points back? Possibly. Was it an overall effective strategy? No, not really.

As sad as it is for me to say this, most things in the Eldar codex are fairly balanced (internally and externally). The only things wrong are Scatbikes and Wraithknights, both of which have ruined that codex.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
2+ re-rollable jinks - meet template D weapons and Nightspinners.

Template D weapons will kill 1 unit before being killed. The unit they target is totally hosed but it will end there. Nightspinners are rending but even with ignore cover from the torrent firing mode, you get your armor save. If the nightspinner fails (and it will) it will be in charge range and die the following turn.

Wilson, krodarklorr, Erik_Morkai

@Wilson: I've face them often enough to consider them undervalued by most Eldar players. Given the nature of a 2+ re-rollable jink, the DA army must be clumped around a Darkshroud of two - so Wraithguard have a reasonable chance of threatening an army rather than a unit.

@krodarklorr: No offense - you play Necrons, and this was concerning Dark Angels Ravenwing. Specifically with 2+ re-rollable jink saves. Not Immortals with 3+/4+++.

@Erik_Morkai: Refer to response to Wilson.

Hey Crazy Jay!

There's a lot of ways your friend could be playing 1850 points of Eldar, and no single strategy that's going to answer all those ways. Eldar is one of the most customisable factions out there. If they're going "full cheddar", then you're pretty much just boned (I'm talking 5 Wraithknights here - which are the most under-costed Super Heavies in the game). But if they're getting together for fun, then there's just so many ways they can play out. Here's some tips based on a few situations:

#1 - Scatterbikes; As has already been mentioned in this thread, Scatterbikes are extremely mobile units, and each of them carries the Scatter Laser heavy weapon. Imagine if you took just Attack Bikes, and those Attack Bikes could move even faster, could move over difficult/dangerous terrain, and could move 2d6" in the assault phase if they didn't charge. The Scatter Laser is also a fantastic all-round weapon that shoots a ton a Strength 6 shots, perfect for dishing out lots of wounds or causing lots of glancing hits. This makes them both hard to avoid, hard to hit back, and you suffer lots of casualties in the meantime. Thankfully, they still have weaknesses. Scatterbikes are comparatively low toughness, and "only" have a 3+ save. By using your own bikes, you should hopefully be able to neutralize some of their mobility advantage. The moment you catch them, a single round of bolter-fire could neuter them. Additionally, they have a low Leadership value, so just a couple casualties (or even a single casualty) can cause them to spend a turn falling back!

#2 - Psychic Shenanigans; Eldar have long been considered to have the best psykers in the game. While that can be argued right now due to the Librarian-formation for Space Marines, that's a pretty specific formation, and the Eldar don't need to use that kind of stuff to field some dominant psykers. Generally speaking, because of how many more warp charges even a psychic-light Eldar force can bring, combined with a Farseer's ability to reroll for harnessing once per turn, expect some combination of buffs and debuffs. Eldar Psykers make their own shooting better, makes their armour saves better, or makes your armour worse. It's unlikely you'll be able to target a psyker out in the open, but if you can you go for it!

#3 - Flyers; Eldar flyers are easy to kill, but very nimble. They're only AV10, but the Crimson Hunter has lots of Lance shots and can pivot before and after moving - allowing it to stay on the battlefield if necessary and hit from unexpected vantage points. The Crimson Hunter is excellent at taking out other flyers, and the Hemlock Wraithfighter can two D-1 Strength blasts that will be very effective at taking out infantry or vehicles caught in the open. The Hemlock Wraithfighter also imposes some Ld debuffs, but since you're Stubborn as Dark Angels, you'll get to ignore this. Yay! While these flyers are deadly against your vehicles, your bikes are probably some of the worst targets for them due to your excellent jinking abilities, especially if you have Feel No Pain on them from an Apothecary.

#4 - Wave Serpents/Falcons; These are the primary Eldar transports. They're only AV12, but with the additional bonuses of jinking, and the Serpent Shield for the Wave Serpent (reduces penetrating hits to glancing hits on a 2+), you're going to have a rough time taking these things out. Best way to take out these transports is to charge them and use your Krak Grenades, since the shield and jinking can't be used against close combat attacks.

#5 - The stuff in the transports (Fire Dragons, Scorpions, Wraithguard); Pay close attention to what squad is in which transport, as each of these units plays very differently. Striking Scorpions are probably the least of your concerns, except for their Exarch, who has a fast-striking power fist! If you can blow up the Scorpions' transport with grenades in close combat, they won't be able to charge on their turn, giving you the benefit of shoot at them to kill off the Exarch with bolter-fire first, the engage the rest in close combat. Fire Dragons are nasty, and if he's got them in a Serpent, you can expect it to Deep Strike. The Dragons then come out and "Battle Focus" into position (all Eldar infantry can run and then still shoot, or shoot and then still run, and they can reroll their run distance - they very easily find your weak points!). Fire Dragons are the best anti-vehicle unit in the game (astonishing +3 to the vehicle damage table), but it's just a squad of meltas against everything else. Not bad versus your bikes either though, so take these guys out as soon as you can. Lastly, you have Wraithguard. Might not want to get too close to these guys, as they carry D-weapons, which will absolutely ruin your day. The only saving grace is that these guns only have a 12" range, but when you add their vehicle's 6" move, and their 6" disembark move, then you're more looking at a 24" range. Not only that, but they're very high toughness units with a good save, making them extremely resilient to your basic weapons. If you can force them to have to walk by taking out their transport early, you'll do yourself a huge favour. Once out of a transport, keeping out of their range shouldn't be difficult.

#6 - Wraithlords, and the dreaded Wraithknight; Wraithlords are the Eldar Dreadnaught, except tougher because they don't have a rear AV10 arc (they're just T8, which is pretty similar to AV12). Not very popular right now. Wraithknights are a whole other story. These guys are Super Heavies, can Jump (so difficult terrain does nothing to slow 'em down), and are lethal in close quarters. They can also have some very strong guns (potentially two 1-shot D-Weapons with long range), but the sword and shield ones are probably more evil (gives them an Inv save that can blind nearby units, and an Initiative 5 D-weapon in close combat). The solution to both these guys are Gravguns, since they'll have high rate of fire and will deal lots of wounds. Otherwise, run away if you can, or engage them in close combat only if you have absolute superiority - all it takes is one of their STOMP attacks at the end of close combat to kill hundreds of points of models!

#7 - Other Aspect Warriors & Vehicles; There are a few other units the Eldar have that can be tricky. Dark Reapers are dedicated Marine killers, with AP3 guns with lots of shots, but are more difficult for the Eldar player to place. Warwalkers can dish out a ton of firepower, but are only AV10 walkers, so you can take them down quickly (Warwalkers can Battlefocus too, so keep that in mind!). Vypers are their "Land Speeders", but have more options for their guns. Banshees, if he takes them, are not much of a threat to your bikers, as their power weapons are only Strength 3.


Overall, the Eldar are all about mobility and lethality. They take strong weapons and put them on mobile platforms so that they can take the best possible offensive and/or defensive positions. With the exception of the hard-as-nails units like the Wraithguard and Wraithknight though, if you can actually catch them, they will go down pretty easily. Since so many of their units are armed with the best stuff, each casualty they suffer will significantly decrease their offensive potential. Ultimately this means that you should try to play "cat & mouse" with the Eldar as much as possible, sacrificing a turn of shooting if you can make sure you're hitting them hard the next turn. Be very careful with such moves though! If you leave the Eldar player an "out", they will take it and you'll have just made a costly mistake.

As an Eldar/Harlequin player, I love it when my opponent plays "spread out". This means I can take a turn to reposition on one of his flanks, that way I only have to fight half of his army at a time with my entire force. Combined with my substantial offensive capabilities, I can often just work my way up his flank without any kind of significant counter-attack. However, that's just part of my build (lots of jetbikes, skyweavers, and skimmers), and not necessarily true of each Eldar force. My experience is that Eldar hate having to fight an army that's "castled" up, since attacking into that group often leaves them exposed to return fire - which can be far more costly to them.

One of the best games I've ever witnessed was a game between two friends; Tau vs Eldar. They both just danced around each other until Turn 4, with there only being a few Fire Warriors are casualties that whole time. When they did engage, it was sudden and decisive, and both forces were practically decimated at the end of Turn 5, with the Tau winning because he had Objective Secured units on the right objective points.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

@krodarklorr: No offense - you play Necrons, and this was concerning Dark Angels Ravenwing. Specifically with 2+ re-rollable jink saves. Not Immortals with 3+/4+++.

I know, I was simply reiterating the fact that D-scythe Wraithguard are a one-hit wonder, at most. There are ways to deny them being able to kill the good stuff, and once they're deep struck, they get eated pretty quickly.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

@krodarklorr: No offense - you play Necrons, and this was concerning Dark Angels Ravenwing. Specifically with 2+ re-rollable jink saves. Not Immortals with 3+/4+++.

I know, I was simply reiterating the fact that D-scythe Wraithguard are a one-hit wonder, at most. There are ways to deny them being able to kill the good stuff, and once they're deep struck, they get eated pretty quickly.

This is true to a degree. An army as described here must move as a single force, and depends on a single save type for ultimate survival. Wraithguard with D-Scythes are excellent at counteracting both aspects depended on. One hit may be all that is required.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

@krodarklorr: No offense - you play Necrons, and this was concerning Dark Angels Ravenwing. Specifically with 2+ re-rollable jink saves. Not Immortals with 3+/4+++.

I know, I was simply reiterating the fact that D-scythe Wraithguard are a one-hit wonder, at most. There are ways to deny them being able to kill the good stuff, and once they're deep struck, they get eated pretty quickly.

This is true to a degree. An army as described here must move as a single force, and depends on a single save type for ultimate survival. Wraithguard with D-Scythes are excellent at counteracting both aspects depended on. One hit may be all that is required.

I'm not too familiar with everything Dark Angels have, but do they have any reserve manipulation? One thing I've learned is, especially going second, is just keep your stuff in reserves if you're afraid of a Deep Striking counter. Let their stuff come in first, then have yours come in afterwards to mop up.

 krodarklorr wrote:
I'm not too familiar with everything Dark Angels have, but do they have any reserve manipulation? One thing I've learned is, especially going second, is just keep your stuff in reserves if you're afraid of a Deep Striking counter. Let their stuff come in first, then have yours come in afterwards to mop up.

They do, but it's rather all-or-nothing within the formations they field in that the formation itself either is deployed wholly or reserves wholly (and is guaranteed turn 2, iirc). Certainly an option, but risks being tabled before reserves enter by the nature of how much stuff must be reserved.

My only resort against eldar is deepstriking thallax.
The Interceptor rule is your biggest frined as a marine player - any chance you can take out those planes before they do any damage - take it. That goes for thier deepstriking units too
Take the interceptor shooting option every time you can because everything will start disappearing as soon as his reserves come in anyway.

Take any option you can to modify his reserve rolls - screw with thier stategy. But remember that the flyer which comes on last is the flyer which stays alive the end of the turn.

I can highly recommend using an 'anvillus pattern' drop pod if you can? the mechanic of having guys inside during the turn that they can't assault from it gives you thinking time and the S6 AP5 ignores cover heat blast attack bypasses thier tank's serpent shields and cover saves as well as striking the weakest armour value! legion marines can give the thing tank hunters for 15 points..

Beware the eldar player saying they will bring a 'fluffy' list - even the 'fluffy' eldar lists are a complete f*** -over.

I give. The temptation is just too great!

ionusx wrote:simple you arrive, tell him your not playing the elder army anymore and leave, never to return.

the eldar codex is broken broken broken with potentially the best units in pretty much every category out of every codex at their disposal (hq, troops, heavy, lord of war, and elite) you have no chance at all of beating them beyond blind luck or your opponent suddenly developing a brain injury that leaves him a vegetable.

its why i refuse to play them anymore; and would sooner forfeit the finals of a tournament than ever face them because its an exercise in futility

Yeah. Eldar don't play the game. They just deploy and the opponent loses. It's a special rule they have, which is why Eldar have been winning every tournament since their codex was released.

ionusx wrote:yes their also hopelessly boring as matches dont involve skill rather its a lot of math. eldar players often have things calculated down to raw statistics and if you dont favor well in the game of odds chances are hes going to math you to death.

Can confirm: the Eldar codex automatically gives you all the mathhammmer odds for every conceivable situation and dice roll. Your chances of winning: somewhere south of zero!

Angron-Khan wrote:The most easy way to face the eldar is ban they from the game. They have too much cheese to play against them and have fun at the same time. Wargames are made for having fun no matter if you play causal style or competitive style.

Oh yeah, Eldar have all the cards. Doesn't matter what list you bring, Eldar wins. It's a well-known fact that they have the only cheesy and OP units in the otherwise excellently balanced game of Warhammer 40k.

SirDonlad wrote:Beware the eldar player saying they will bring a 'fluffy' list - even the 'fluffy' eldar lists are a complete f*** -over.

Sarcasm Mode: Off.

This is to some extent true; all the Eldar formations are a very lore-friendly way of building an army, but also very powerful on the tabletop. The only saving grace is that a "fluffy" Eldar player might be willing to tone down certain OP units in their army.

Are these Super Heavy wraith things FW or do they come stock in the standard codex?

Crazy Jay wrote:
Are these Super Heavy wraith things FW or do they come stock in the standard codex?

Standard Codex. 295 points buys you a S10 T8 6-wound Jump Gargantuan Creature with two D-weapons. Can swap for free for a S6 AP2 3-shot blast weapon or a D-strenght sword, both granting a 5++ save.

Ironically, it's costed about where it should have been when it was a Monstrous Creature, had no D-weapons, and had to pay for the weapon swaps.

That is pretty insane