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I've read that in one of the recent Horus Heresy novels, it's mentioned that his usual backstory is a fabrication, and he was in fact just a Perpetual from the Dark Age of Technology who managed to strike a deal with Chaos Gods for his powers, and then went back on it.

Is this presented as fact, speculation or information from an unreliable narrator?

I'll be honest - it kind of sucks if that's his official backstory now. It turns him from the utlimate archetype of humanity (including his all too-human flaws) into a regular dude (albiet an immortal one) who picked a God's pocket. He goes from King Arthur to Prometheus.

Rather than an equal, the Emperor becomes a rebellious puppet. It makes the foundation of the Imperium less a triumph of human will, and more the product of someone having chanced their luck. If turns the current crumbling of Humanity from a colossal tragedy to a resetting of the natural state of affairs, which fundamentally damages the scenario in my opinion.

I would say check the source on that. Sounds like heretical lies to me.

I Highly doubt this is the case, as he is seen as anathema to the Daemon. you should really check the source-

and by the way- there is only one True God-

(Reality Check)- DONE!

Though I haven't read it, the information apparently comes from the 2014 Horus Heresy novel Vengeful Spirit.

What I wanted to know was, is this presented in the book as a potentially unreliable account, or official canon?

I didn't get any of that from Vengeful Spirit. Please can you provide a page number and quote?

From what I remember, the Emperor was born around the time of Jesus' death because 8 shamans (Read: Psykers) sacrificed their souls to create the Ultimate Human, the result; Emps. He would observe, sometimes intervene but never directly control.

It wasnt until the end of Age of Strife did Emps do something.

Mellow wrote:
I didn't get any of that from Vengeful Spirit. Please can you provide a page number and quote?

I'm purely going from the wiki, which lists Vengeful Spirit as a reference for the information.

Here's the section - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind#Conflicting_Origins

The emperor made a deal with the gods to get More power. He was already pretty powerful before. He used the gained power to create the astronomicon and the primarchs, which were needed to end the age of strife.

Try and ignore whenever the Horus Heresy series changes anything.
Perhaps we can look back and sort things out when it's all over, but until then they seem more confused about whats going on than anyone else.

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
From what I remember, the Emperor was born around the time of Jesus' death because 8 shamans (Read: Psykers) sacrificed their souls to create the Ultimate Human, the result; Emps. He would observe, sometimes intervene but never directly control.

It wasnt until the end of Age of Strife did Emps do something.

He was born far before the time of Jesus in his original origin story, something to the tune of ~8000BC if I remember correctly.

Weird, this was always my pet theory.

Knowing what you do about his personality, 'Well intentioned psyker jerkass learns to absorb and compound warp power' makes way more sense than "I've been around forever but never did much notable. I possess all knowledge but have to chase STC around to build gubbins. I'm a gestalt human soul but display the empathy and emotional intelligence of Chris Chan."

It's the new story put forward by Vengeful Spirit. Like it or lump it. The Emperor's backstory hasn't been mentioned again since the 90's. The Shaman thing is long dead.

That wasn't the question though. The question was: Is this new information presented ambiguously or not?

Where does it originate? From an unreliable narrator? Are we left with enough wiggle room to be able to disregard it, or is it pretty objectively stated to be factual?

Venheful Spirit is a novel, not a Codex. Information provided comes from characters with motivations, not an impartial, omniscient narrator. Unless there's a scene where the Emperor himself confirms it, then it's canonicity is only as strong as how reliable the person giving the information is.

The information is provided by 2 characters: Alivia Sureka (a Perpetual who accompanied the Emperor to Molech when he gained his abilities) and Horus who seeks the same gateway to gain those abilities (and succeeds).

From the point of view of the heresy series , the events of Vengeful Spirit are entirely Canon.

They are however presesnted with some level of ambiguity, and I certainly don't think the conclusions reached in the first post are correct.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
From the point of view of the heresy series , the events of Vengeful Spirit are entirely Canon.

They are however presesnted with some level of ambiguity, and I certainly don't think the conclusions reached in the first post are correct.

If the source of the Emperor's power is Chaos, then the entire Imperium owes its existence to Chaos. Its fall no longer tragic, and more a case of its true landlords coming to collect. It fundamentally alters the nature of the scenario, and for the worse.

The Emperor becomes less of a King Arthur figure, and more a Prometheus. He didn't defy the Gods, he tricked them. His fate is no longer that of a martyr, but one of hubris. It's less of a tragedy and more of a parable. It makes Chaos the fundamental story driver, rather than the Imperium. It makes the universe less grimdark as the current Imperium is a net gain for Humanity (it should never have existed, yet still endures) instead of a net loss (Humanity's ultimate potential laid low by treachery and spite).

The Emperor's origins and his fate are the crux of the Imperium, and the Imperium is the crux of the scenario. Mess with that, and it recontextualises everything.

If Humans are responsible for their own fate, then Chaos' actions add to a dark and threatening universe. If Chaos is responsible for Humanity's success, then any defiance against them trying to destroy that progress is inherently optimistic, as Humanity then become the plucky underdogs still defying the odds (they successfully cheated the Gods!), rather than the broken fighter past their prime, facing threats and usurpers from all sides. They're still on the upswing, not the downswing.

It genuinely ruins a core part of the scenario in my opinion, and shows how poor the writing is currently that they don't understand that.

I dunno, its been part of the story for as long as I can remember that the emperor bargained with chaos to make the primarchs . Then part of the price was that the gods got to pick which planet they were raised on.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I dunno, its been part of the story for as long as I can remember that the emperor bargained with chaos to make the primarchs . Then part of the price was that the gods got to pick which planet they were raised on.

Well, Vengeful Spirit only came out last year. Prior to that, there was no bargain with Chaos. Quite the reverse. The Emperor was created by the Shamen in order to defy Chaos. It's literally the opposite backstory, and as the Emperor is the Imperium's backstory, and the Imperium's rise is the backstory to the current scenario, it changes everything.

It's like saying Batman didn't witness his parents being killed, but killed them himself by accident. The new context would absolutely change how you would approach not just new, but existing stories, and it would be for the worse by far.

Also, as far as I'm aware, the Emperor striking deals regarding the Primarchs' origin planets has never been part of any story. I've certainly never read that anywhere.

There has never been any mention on The Emperors "payment" for the powers he took from the Chaos Gods. But to be fair, if he stole them then there is no payment.

The Vengeful Spirit novel clearly states during the age of strife the Emperor managed to create a starship that was a one way ticket to Molec.

He was already an awesome psyker and after his upgrade he travelled back to Terrs without a ship. We can logically conclude that he used the "immaterium sidestep" (x 10) featured in the Calth book used by Oll Person.

Hierophant wrote:
The Emperor becomes less of a King Arthur figure, and more a Prometheus. He didn't defy the Gods, he tricked them. His fate is no longer that of a martyr, but one of hubris. It's less of a tragedy and more of a parable. It makes Chaos the fundamental story driver, rather than the Imperium. It makes the universe less grimdark as the current Imperium is a net gain for Humanity (it should never have existed, yet still endures) instead of a net loss (Humanity's ultimate potential laid low by treachery and spite).

Promethius isn't a story of hubris, its a story of rebellion against a tyrant king. In this case instead of Zeus it's Chaos.
The Emperor on the Golden Throne can be equated to Promethius chained on the rock, forced to suffer.
Even by the end of the tale, when Heracles freed Prometheus and Zeus forgave him, it was Zeus who surrendered his vengeful spirit.
Prometheus never apologized for his actions, because he knew he was in the right.

I don't believe it lessens the grimdarkness of the current storyline, as humanity ceases to be the potentially beautiful utopia, interfered on by external forces.
It makes humanity a rat, scrounging up from obscurity to cheat and steal what little power they can from the universe.
Without being lying, cheating, and traitorus, they would have gotten exterminated years ago.
Humans are essentially Skavens of 40K.
It comes down to humans being rotten at their core. That the most 40K thing ever.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
From the point of view of the heresy series , the events of Vengeful Spirit are entirely Canon.

They are however presesnted with some level of ambiguity, and I certainly don't think the conclusions reached in the first post are correct.

exactly. just because some people in the novel say that this happen, it dosn't follow that this is anything more than their take on it, or what that character wants another character to think.

 Mantorok wrote:
Promethius isn't a story of hubris, its a story of rebellion against a tyrant king.

It makes humanity a rat, scrounging up from obscurity to cheat and steal what little power they can from the universe.
Without being lying, cheating, and traitorus, they would have gotten exterminated years ago.
Humans are essentially Skavens of 40K.
It comes down to humans being rotten at their core. That the most 40K thing ever.

1) I know Prometheus isn'y a story of hubris, I'm saying the Emperor's is a separate point. The key difference between him and Prometheus is that Prometheus stole power from the gods. The Emperor bartered for it and then went back on a deal in this new continuity. It then becomes a tale of hubris as he was brought back down to Earth and punished not just for his theft, but his ambition. In that sense, there's probably shades of Icarus too.

2) Making Humanity rats is not grimdark, it's thoroughly optimistic. Whatever edges they manages to create for themselves equate to one more victory against a universe that's fundamentally opposed to them. When the power they lost was of their own making, it made their fall more tragic, as it didn't have to be this way. If the current reality is true, then they're victims of inevitabilty still defiantly raging against the night rather than architects of their own destruction.

By making the Chaos gods the source of Humanity's power and the force that takes it back introduces a level of fatalism that has no place in the story. If nobody was ever able to truly influence their own fate, then the scenario doesn't rank as a tragedy anymore. It just is what it is. The universe is grim, because it really doesn't have to be, and that's the tragedy. Humans and Eldar fell from grace due to their own flaws. However, if there's genuinely no other way for the universe to be than dark, then any resistence to that, even in a token fashion, is optimsitic.

The Imperium becomes a beacon of light rather than a flickering candle.