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chaos0xomega wrote:

Dont have to run if you have a fortified compound, do you? Supplies could be an issue, but we have emergency stockpiles of those dotting the country for just this sort of reason. Hell, you wouldnt even need to drive outside the walls thanks to things like helicopters.

That alone shows how naive you are if you think that a walled off section of suburbia has the logistics to maintain a helicopter... sorry mate but thats just not how it works. For every hour of flight time you need multiple hours on the ground for repairs and such, logistics take up the bulk of resources and time, and without a constant, steady supply, these things break down quite quickly. Sending out guys 4-10 at a time per chopper to get supplies also isnt as foolproof as you think... especially in a world where if you dont have ready open road access from the farm, to the processing plant, to the __________, to the super market and enough semi trucks to ship it all then almost no one gets to eat. There are not random stores of supplies dotted through out every county in the amounts needed to keep even a fraction alive for any amount of time. I wish there was, but there simply is not.

The scenario you mention, which is basically day of the living dead, where the cast is in an underground bunker, has a helicopter, supplies, trained staff, protection ect ect. Their supplies while greater then 99.9% of the population are *finate*, their number are *finate* while Z's have *infinate* time and #'s to get to them. This super fortification, made with more resources then 99% of everything else, is running out of what it needs to keep the chopper/people going pretty quickly.

Again, that is a small infinitesimal % of the population who will find themselves in the most secure, well stocked, bunker available. Everyone else is dead.

Having walls and 20+ years of supplies means nothing when 20 years later the same Z's are clawing outside.

Also, you mention that in TWD they only react to sound, which is not the case, they smell the living, or did you skip the "we're gonna need more guts!" episode?

How can all the zombies be inside, yet everyone is safe if they also "just stay inside their suburban homes and live off the years of stockpiles/helicopters everyone must have"?

You vastly over estimate the resources the military has, and vastly under estimate how much logistics it takes to keep them running, and how fragile that logistical chain is.


The only reason zombies wouldnt work, is because they are made up magic that doesnt exist.

 easysauce wrote:
That alone shows how naive you are if you think that a walled off section of suburbia has the logistics to maintain a helicopter... sorry mate but thats just not how it works. For every hour of flight time you need multiple hours on the ground for repairs and such, logistics take up the bulk of resources and time, and without a constant, steady supply, these things break down quite quickly.

If we can set up the logistics infrastructure to maintain helos, including supply runs to remote outposts, in a remote, mountainous, 3rd world country full of angry people with guns, rpgs, a major chip on their shoulder, and a desire to kill us, then we can set up that same logistical network in the US, yes, including suburbia. In fact, it would probably be easier considering that we have actual bases here to support most of that sort of work.

Sending out guys 4-10 at a time per chopper to get supplies also isnt as foolproof as you think... especially in a world where if you dont have ready open road access from the farm, to the processing plant, to the __________, to the super market and enough semi trucks to ship it all then almost no one gets to eat. There are not random stores of supplies dotted through out every county in the amounts needed to keep even a fraction alive for any amount of time. I wish there was, but there simply is not.

I should have clarified, that I was referring to a world in which the still living population of the US can be measured in the 6-7 figure range (at most), scattered across the country within a series of fortified safezones and military installations. Probably would run out of stored fuel in a 3-6 month time frame assuming careful use, food in 1-2. That is, unless, the surviving military forces were intelligent about where and what they focused their attention on "liberating".

Also, you mention that in TWD they only react to sound, which is not the case, they smell the living, or did you skip the "we're gonna need more guts!" episode?

No I remember that one too, though I chose to ignore it since it seemed more like they used smell to determine what *wasnt* prey, rather than use it to determine/find what was. I could be wrong in that analysis, but from what I recall, throughout the series the zombies were only ever alerted to their presence via sound, even when a non-gut-covered human, who likely reeked from not having showered in x many days was standing in what should have been smellable range.

chaos0xomega wrote:

If we can set up the logistics infrastructure to maintain helos, including supply runs to remote outposts, in a remote, mountainous, 3rd world country full of angry people with guns, rpgs, a major chip on their shoulder, and a desire to kill us, then we can set up that same logistical network in the US, yes, including suburbia. In fact, it would probably be easier considering that we have actual bases here to support most of that sort of work.

Yes, they can do that because they have *time* to do it. Afghanistan was not planned and executed in under a week. Even an operation on the continental US it would take more then a week to deploy in the organized manner we saw in Afghanistan due to the sheer scale of the country, the spread out/reproductive nature of zombies, and the fact that as they speak the infrastructure they need to do this is already breaking down.

What we see in the show, pockets of nat guard/mil deployed in a "martial law/fema" style which is the SOP for this kind of thing, the government has plans in place for these sorts of things precisely because they dont have time to make plans when emergencies happen.

No one even realizes whats happening until ~ a week into this scenario (already too late) so even *if* the chain of command still exists and can make up the plan you speak of on the spot, it has no time left to get it started, let alone to move the people/material needed to create a self sustaining anti zombie force able to defend everyone that is left, let alone wipe out all the zombies.

At best all it could do is protect isolated pockets of people, but with ever dwindling resources.

You also forgot to mention all those helicopters are getting nonstop replacement and repaired parts brought in from outside the area. This also assume the techs that work on the choppers have survived in enough number to work on them.

I think a real fortification would work. A castle or somewhere with thick concrete or brick walls with enough flat roof space and grounds to grow crops. It takes an acre to feed 10-15 people. Then you have water issues. One disease can wipe out that walled in community pretty easily so hygiene and sanitation would be of the utmost importance. Surviving the zombies is the easy part.

Why do you need thick concrete against zombies?

Because apparrently all zombies have superhuman strength and can bust down doors and tear holes through chain link fences with relative ease.

Not in this show's universe.

The usually use 'weight of numbers' though - so eventually they can push over some fences.

Characters are periodically shown 'culling the herd' and/or leading them away to avoid this.

I'm still somewhat amazed at how few zombies there are out and about in the greater LA area though - especially with what we 'know' happened in Atlanta.

And there's really no way they managed to stuff them all into that arena either.

Still - Drama for the Drama God, I suppose!

chaos0xomega wrote:
Because apparrently all zombies have superhuman strength and can bust down doors and tear holes through chain link fences with relative ease.

I was just thinking you would need a half decent wall capable of bearing some weight. Even the thousand + walker herds in the comics can physically only put so much weight to bear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Not in this show's universe.

The usually use 'weight of numbers' though - so eventually they can push over some fences.

Characters are periodically shown 'culling the herd' and/or leading them away to avoid this.

I'm still somewhat amazed at how few zombies there are out and about in the greater LA area though - especially with what we 'know' happened in Atlanta.

And there's really no way they managed to stuff them all into that arena either.

Still - Drama for the Drama God, I suppose!

That may be in the season finale. Alternatively that may be next season, showing us something a little different than TWD.

Well apparently at some point over the next 2 weeks or so someone goes around and opens all the doors to let the walkers out of hiding

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm still somewhat amazed at how few zombies there are out and about in the greater LA area though - especially with what we 'know' happened in Atlanta.

I think the idea is that most folks died in their homes/indoors and are stuck.

 pretre wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm still somewhat amazed at how few zombies there are out and about in the greater LA area though - especially with what we 'know' happened in Atlanta.

I think the idea is that most folks died in their homes/indoors and are stuck.

The greater Los Angeles area has a population of near 18 million.

They haven't really said that on the show have they - all the zombies are stuck indoors right now?

You get enough weight behind it, a fence is going to come down, be it just falling over, metal fatigue, or constant pushing back and forth loosening the braces or connections.Plus a brick wall provides a blockage of line of sight and sound(to a lesser extent) making the zombies less prone to horde around it and get agitated.

Then you have the other benefits of providing somewhat better security against human threats. Yeah a rope or ladder can climb it but at least any Joe Blow with a master key cant cut through it leaving a gap or repaired weak point for zombies. If its big and tall enough you can actually walk the perimeter of the wall as well.

Plus the fence set up in the show is likely very flimsy, I doubt they embedded the posts in concrete, it was likely hurriedly constructed by any trooper they could find and mostly used it as a speed bump until they themselves could get to it and fix the issue.

 Frazzled wrote:
Why do you need thick concrete against zombies?

Its a similar effect to metal fatigue, they are not strong enough to knock over/through things on the first go, but they keep pushing/pounding/bending/ect on things, and more zombies come to help, eventually it will break down whatever they are bashing on even if you can stay inside indefinitely. Even if you hand waive away their relentless assault, at some point the Z's pile up and they just climb over.

Of course *some* areas have fences or walls that will hold up, but most fences already have holes in them, or are not high enough, or sturdy enough. The fortifications that are needed are few and far between, in demand, and certainly not "in peoples houses" surrounded by at most a 5ft chain link fence and some press board walls. Most houses have huge windows in the front room, would be cake to get through with zombies. Even things like prisons will need modifications so that there are entry and exit points as you need/want to leave at some point.




and that is *just* for zombies.. people are a real threat in bad situations, always someone who wants what you have.

 Alpharius wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm still somewhat amazed at how few zombies there are out and about in the greater LA area though - especially with what we 'know' happened in Atlanta.

I think the idea is that most folks died in their homes/indoors and are stuck.

The greater Los Angeles area has a population of near 18 million.

They haven't really said that on the show have they - all the zombies are stuck indoors right now?

That's my guess. Alternatively, all of them are stuck downtown. There may be small pockets of people attracting them.

Col. Dash wrote:


Plus the fence set up in the show is likely very flimsy, I doubt they embedded the posts in concrete, it was likely hurriedly constructed by any trooper they could find and mostly used it as a speed bump until they themselves could get to it and fix the issue.

LOL yeah its one of those "contruction instant set up" style fences... the kind I have seen blown over by the *wind* let alone zombies.

Regarding TWD, shouldn't there be about 200 million zombies on the East coast? I know the South is less populated but I'd think the walkers would be spreading out from the Northeast looking for fresh meat.

 Breotan wrote:
Regarding TWD, shouldn't there be about 200 million zombies on the East coast? I know the South is less populated but I'd think the walkers would be spreading out from the Northeast looking for fresh meat.

Population density map:

 Breotan wrote:
Regarding TWD, shouldn't there be about 200 million zombies on the East coast? I know the South is less populated but I'd think the walkers would be spreading out from the Northeast looking for fresh meat.

Well considering they only move towards sound, and in the post apocalyptic zombie world, most sound is the sound of zombies, they probably don't end up moving more than a few miles in any direction over their lif... err... deathtime....

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Regarding TWD, shouldn't there be about 200 million zombies on the East coast? I know the South is less populated but I'd think the walkers would be spreading out from the Northeast looking for fresh meat.

Well considering they only move towards sound, and in the post apocalyptic zombie world, most sound is the sound of zombies, they probably don't end up moving more than a few miles in any direction over their lif... err... deathtime....

The authors of the show disagree with you.

AMC's Zombie Rules for The Walking Dead, as Tweeted before the Season 1 premiere:

Zombie Rule #1: Ability to run is based on the amount of time a zombie has been undead, and how much decay has set in.

Zombie Rule #2: Zombies decay but at a much slower rate than humans, and it's still possible to differentiate between young and old zombies.

Zombie Rule #3: Zombies are like lions: if they've eaten, you can walk by them without fear, but a pack of hungry zombies will attack you.

Zombie Rule #4: The quickest speed of any zombie is a shambling run. see Night of the Living Dead. NO sprinters exist.

Zombie Rule #5: Zombies are not dexterous. They cannot pick up or use any items more complex than a rock or a stick.

Zombie Rule #6: Zombies have poor eyesight but they do have a strong sense of smell.

Zombie Rule #7: Zombies cannot speak but can communicate by pack mentality. The herd tends to move together if they sight food.

Zombie Rule #8: There is no overt recognition of people or places, there is a sense of familiarity that can dictate where a zombie moves.

Zombie Rule #9: There's no known cause of the zombie mutation, but it's suspected to be a virus or infection.

Zombie Rule #10: Once you're bitten you'll die and reanimate as a walker. How long it takes is related to the nature your bite.





Though there are some liberties taken in the series for dramatic purposes that the book is able to not have to take.

But they are generally consistent with romero zombies, slow-medium pace, but just as strong as normal.

The whole pack mentality thing means once they clear out an area of food they just shamble on to the next bit or aimlessly wander.

 easysauce wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Why do you need thick concrete against zombies?

Its a similar effect to metal fatigue, they are not strong enough to knock over/through things on the first go, but they keep pushing/pounding/bending/ect on things, and more zombies come to help, eventually it will break down whatever they are bashing on even if you can stay inside indefinitely. Even if you hand waive away their relentless assault, at some point the Z's pile up and they just climb over.

Of course *some* areas have fences or walls that will hold up, but most fences already have holes in them, or are not high enough, or sturdy enough. The fortifications that are needed are few and far between, in demand, and certainly not "in peoples houses" surrounded by at most a 5ft chain link fence and some press board walls. Most houses have huge windows in the front room, would be cake to get through with zombies. Even things like prisons will need modifications so that there are entry and exit points as you need/want to leave at some point.

Spoiler:

even in the walking dead comics, once they get to alexandria which has extremely solid walls, they have to herd the large zombie groups away as they can easily over run the walls. Just hiding behind a wall and going "well, i am good, no way they can get me now!" is a bit naive.

and that is *just* for zombies.. people are a real threat in bad situations, always someone who wants what you have.

But again, even a slight wall was enough to keep them away until they herded them off. A nice wooden palisade would do nicely. Your stereotypical West US Fort would have been fine.

We're talking military units here. I don't think human attack is that kind of deal. Plus you don't want to build up for a human attack. Thats why castles got low after the boom juice was invented.

Yeah, places like the US, russia, china, and a few other places that could muster enough well equipped troops could establish bases and hold out for sure if thats the plan they came up with right off the bat on day one.

Its plausible that at least one or more countries would be able to pull it off, but its also plausible that they would break down before being able to put of a sustainable defense.

Personally I would love to see it depicted in the series or comic. A hold out military base would be as good a group of survivors as any if not a bit better equipped.

other survivor groups Id like to see:

large group of medieval re-enactors going... well medieval on the zombies.

some kind of tinker-er type guy who builds traps or army of darkness style autos to deal with the Z's

ninjas

 easysauce wrote:
Yeah, places like the US, russia, china, and a few other places that could muster enough well equipped troops could establish bases and hold out for sure if thats the plan they came up with right off the bat on day one.

Its plausible that at least one or more countries would be able to pull it off, but its also plausible that they would break down before being able to put of a sustainable defense.

Personally I would love to see it depicted in the series or comic. A hold out military base would be as good a group of survivors as any if not a bit better equipped.

Thats kiind of the WWZ situation. The US retreated to a defensible area: the Rockies, and counterattacked once they got back on their feet. For the walkers they just used rifles primarily. They saved the tanks etc for the people...

other survivor groups Id like to see:

large group of medieval re-enactors going... well medieval on the zombies.

some kind of tinker-er type guy who builds traps or army of darkness style autos to deal with the Z's

ninjas

Combine them! Lets lighten this up with a little Deux ex machina of our clan of wandering merry men/Ninjas/Ash saving Alexandria's bacon and then continue on to their epic pilgrimage to Renfair...

YES!

 easysauce wrote:

large group of medieval re-enactors going... well medieval on the zombies.

Someone call up Peter Dinklage....

 easysauce wrote:


some kind of tinker-er type guy who builds traps or army of darkness style autos to deal with the Z's

We had that guy already - Morgan had a couple of blocks all nicely trapped up!

 Alpharius wrote:

 easysauce wrote:


some kind of tinker-er type guy who builds traps or army of darkness style autos to deal with the Z's

We had that guy already - Morgan had a couple of blocks all nicely trapped up!

oh right! forget about him, his story is so different in the series that I forget, is he even still alive?


but, did he have a spinning beanie hat with a razor wire yo-yo on top?

cause whoever makes those first wins the z apocalypse.

 easysauce wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 easysauce wrote:


some kind of tinker-er type guy who builds traps or army of darkness style autos to deal with the Z's

We had that guy already - Morgan had a couple of blocks all nicely trapped up!

oh right! forget about him, his story is so different in the series that I forget, is he even still alive?

Not sure if serious watched last season at all?

 pretre wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Regarding TWD, shouldn't there be about 200 million zombies on the East coast? I know the South is less populated but I'd think the walkers would be spreading out from the Northeast looking for fresh meat.

Population density map:

Ya, looking at that map the whole Washington D.C. plot line should be a no-go. There's no way in hell they'd make it to D.C. even in MRAPs. In fact, they really need to increase the amount of walkers encountered the farther North the group goes. Also, what about these migration patterns that they've seen walkers do?

We should probably worry about that over in the "TWD" thread.

The LA area should be bad enough!

Though I suppose you can get out to the desert fast enough - maybe!

well given that walkers do decay, albeit at a slower rate, its possible that many of the walkers simply decayed too far and ceased to be animate/turned to dirt and bones(its been what? a few years since the collapse of civilization as of the most recent seasons of TWD?)

Alternatively, like in LA, most of the walkers are still trapped indoors and we simply dont see them because our heroes dont go into every last single building they see?

 Alpharius wrote:
We should probably worry about that over in the "TWD" thread.

The LA area should be bad enough!

Though I suppose you can get out to the desert fast enough - maybe!

Do-able. With the deserted conditions we've seen so far they could be the only people in seventy years to hit freeways without major traffic. They could be out of LA basin in under an hour. Ride up to Lake Arrowhead and live out the apocalypse resort style. Yea baby.