Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

From what we know, there is roughly one "good guy marine" per 1 imperial planet. And we can assume there are fewer chaos marines than that since they've been at constant war since the heresy and only some small fraction of marines go renegade.

We can probably assume the population of the average imperial world is around 7-10 billion given the existence of massive hive worlds that probably tip the average up. And military conscription in the imperium probably means that space marines are outnumbered a billion to one. And their Chaosified counterparts are outnumbered roughly infinity to one, because chaos.

That means space marines, the more numerous loyalist type, comprise .0000001% of the military might of the imperium. Even if space marines are worth a thousand guardsmen (debatable but sure well go with that) the rest of the imperium still does 99.999% of the work.

So how much do the lads with the shoulder pads really contribute ? If they all disappeared (leaving Mars to pick through their stuff and maybe authorize some of it for general use) would humanity be worse or better off? And as for chaos-would the gods even notice losing a couple thousand guys if they have the infinite might of the immaterium to draw from?

The IG take massive landslide victories, multiply in numbers and improve training to cover the Astartes losses, eliminate the Tau, then start focussing on taking out the other races in a more organised manner.

Reasoning: Without the CSM spearhead, the forces of chaos would be greatly weakened, and the IOM could divert more resources to everything else. They take out the Tau first, as it's the easiest and fastest-expanding target, and then continue as planned. The Imperial Marines only number ~1,000,000 possibly up to 1,500,000, so losing them is only an utterly tiny fraction of the Imperial Might.

30 Black Templars defeated 5000 cultists according to fluff. So 5000÷30=166 cultist vs 1 Marine.

Losing Imperial Space Marines is a large problem for the Imperium as they lose their best rapid reaction forces. Alpha striking would need to be undertaken by the inferior Tempestus Scions, but Imperium as a whole can still stand.

Reasoning: Space Marines, whilst being arguably the best single troops in the Imperium, are only effective as force multipliers.

Chaos, on the other hand, is pretty much crippled. Chaos were only able to become a galactic threat with the falling of the Legions, and their prowess allowed them to conquer and get more followers. Chaos have less cultists than the guard have trained Guardsmen, and daemonic incursions, whilst possible, are severely hamstrung by the lack of alpha legion operatives or Dark Apostles to spread the word of corruption. Chaos are driven back to the Eye of Terror definitively and the Imperium can now flourish again.

Reasoning: Chaos Marines make up a far larger proportion of Chaos forces than the Imperials, and Chao only spreads where there is already a chaos presence. Chaos Marines are the best way of spreading Chaos taint reliably, and their absence hurts chaos.

Yeah, its a net win for the Imperium. As Sgt_Smudge says the Imperium loses their best rapid response forces, but they gain back a very large portion of the forces that are stationed at Cadia to divert elsewhere.

Yup. The blow to the Imperium would be massive, but it could recover from it. For Chaos, the blow would be even larger, and without possibility of recovering. Chaos simply lacks the manpower to take on the Imperium without CSM.

GW has no real sense of scale, but that doesn't mean that the million Marines don't matter. It's not like every single planet in the entire Imperium is always under constant attack by enemy forces so powerful only Space Marines can handle them. Realistically, pick a few hundred important battles each year and send a bunch of Space Marines to each of those, and it can make a noticeable difference.

Or, y'know, bomb them from orbit instead of using ground forces...

 Selym wrote:
Or, y'know, bomb them from orbit instead of using ground forces...

I like to think of it as the Imperium lacking the technological finesse to control such things. They either completely wipe out the planet, or they send in ground forces

Orks take over. Ghazzy melts down the Golden Throne for scrap and sells it to Kaptin Badrukk. Mad Doc Grotznik uses the surviving 'umies for "experiments". Mars is given to the Meks. Every day at noon there's a parade of Killa Kans and Deff Dreads. Squigs develop fins and take over the oceans, eventually growing to enormous size. Rokkits filled with snotlings and gretchin are fired indiscriminately at systems known to contain Tau, Nids, or sometimes right into the Sun just to see what would happen. Wazzdakka can finally ride his bike across the universe unimpeded. Brain Boyz come back and restore order to Ork Kulture, mandating that all greenskins of Nob size and larger must wear top hats and monocles. Meanwhile the Eldar face-palm themselves so hard they are wiped out of existence.



Oh, wait -- Realistically! OH! Nevermind.

Wouldn't the extent of any "rapid response" be ship combat? Ships in 40k generally move about as fast as one another, logically if you could get the space marines there you could get the navy there, and reflexes aside when it comes to space ships as big as 40k, only a thousand guys in a chapter is gonna SEVERELY limit your spaceship strength...

Also, I thought the primary way chaos got into the world was warp storms and popping out of psykers' foreheads? How is chaos reliant on a hundred thousand or so pointy dudes to advance their plans? If they're really that vital for the ol' sneaky spreading of the chaos taint, why are CSM allowed to be a military force at all, particularly when they're evidently super, super bad at it? At some point wouldn't at least Tzeentch say "alllllllllright boys I think the limitless hordes of demonic monstrosities can handle it from here I'm reassigning all y'all to evil space Jehovah's Witness duties full time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Or, y'know, bomb them from orbit instead of using ground forces...

I like to think of it as the Imperium lacking the technological finesse to control such things. They either completely wipe out the planet, or they send in ground forces

Generally speaking, the more you want to blow something up, the more technological finesse is needed. "Oh, sorry, if we want to bomb that we'd need to crack the whole planet in half and smoosh each and every person into jelly" is a bit suspect.

the_scotsman wrote:
Wouldn't the extent of any "rapid response" be ship combat? Ships in 40k generally move about as fast as one another, logically if you could get the space marines there you could get the navy there, and reflexes aside when it comes to space ships as big as 40k, only a thousand guys in a chapter is gonna SEVERELY limit your spaceship strength...

Also, I thought the primary way chaos got into the world was warp storms and popping out of psykers' foreheads? How is chaos reliant on a hundred thousand or so pointy dudes to advance their plans? If they're really that vital for the ol' sneaky spreading of the chaos taint, why are CSM allowed to be a military force at all, particularly when they're evidently super, super bad at it? At some point wouldn't at least Tzeentch say "alllllllllright boys I think the limitless hordes of demonic monstrosities can handle it from here I'm reassigning all y'all to evil space Jehovah's Witness duties full time.

-Because those "100,000 or so" dudes most likely are somewhere in the legion strength /per heretical legion/ and still recruiting.

-They cause most of the warp storms in 40k.

-They are man-for-man the biggest creators of daemon energy

-Wild psykers are usually small points on the warp-map, and are hard to find and exploit without either a really big daemon, or some help from the local heretics.

-CSM's are known for making those local heretics

-Abaddon is currently the major uniting force of Chaos, as are several other CSM characters. Without them, there is no organised offensive.

If they all disappeared?

Chaos and Man are SCREWED.

the_scotsman wrote:

Generally speaking, the more you want to blow something up, the more technological finesse is needed. "Oh, sorry, if we want to bomb that we'd need to crack the whole planet in half and smoosh each and every person into jelly" is a bit suspect.

It was a joke but yes that was exactly what I was saying, that they don't know how to shoot the planet and NOT blow it up.

the_scotsman wrote:
Wouldn't the extent of any "rapid response" be ship combat? Ships in 40k generally move about as fast as one another, logically if you could get the space marines there you could get the navy there, and reflexes aside when it comes to space ships as big as 40k, only a thousand guys in a chapter is gonna SEVERELY limit your spaceship strength...

The reason the Space Marines are the best rapid response for the Imperium is because the Imperium is a logistical nightmare. It takes days, weeks, even months to arrange a proper counterattack because of this. The Space Marines literally just get up and go, the only logistics they really need to concern themselves with is ammunition, which any Battle Barges or Striker Cruisers they have in orbit at the time are likely already fully loaded with. They simply get on board and they can leave, it is not such a simple process for the Imperial Guard/Navy.

As written? Nothing. There's too few to matter.

The Imperium of Man would have the resources to actually deal with the threats facing it on all sides, and would be able to take back half a Segmentum that they just lost (as of 999.M41)