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 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
Wargamescon and BAO were won by a list which laughs off melta and laughs off grav, but has a healthy respect for plasma, Daemons.

I've had good success running Spawn stars in the current meta. I laugh off melta and grav shots with ease, but my hardest matchup is plasmaguns on bikes.

I like Plasma-Guns on Bike, they even work with my Swiftclaws.

I think it also depends on how much Plasma is out there too. My Plasma SPAM list as 33+ Plasma Weapons on it. Not many armies I have encountered do well against it.

That's significantly less firepower than I take on week in and week out. I think I'd be fine.

I though Blood Angles were crap?

Yeah, they are crap. But 33 plasmas on various platforms is a thing I've seen on and off since 5th ed. I don't particularly fear plasma cannons, and plasma guns aren't efficient outside 12". There are so many more scary things.

Melta is usually the more common pick.

Plasma is better vs heavy infantry only, which is a role which can often be filled with other choices (grav, battle/thermal cannons, heldrakes, for example).

Melta on the other hand is still king of popping tanks (well, besides D weapons, but nobody except eldar have those en mass).

If your squad has the delivery method or maneuverability to effectively use meltaguns, then they are usually the better pick.

Slower infantry might be better with plasma, but then again they are 5 points more per weapon, and potentially cook your own guys.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Melta is usually the more common pick.

Plasma is better vs heavy infantry only, which is a role which can often be filled with other choices (grav, battle/thermal cannons, heldrakes, for example).

Melta on the other hand is still king of popping tanks (well, besides D weapons, but nobody except eldar have those en mass).

If your squad has the delivery method or maneuverability to effectively use meltaguns, then they are usually the better pick.

Slower infantry might be better with plasma, but then again they are 5 points more per weapon, and potentially cook your own guys.

I don't fear the gets hot! But grav has extra 6" with an extra shot. And is fully functional vs WKs. Plasma sucks vs WKs.

I still use a few plasma guns/combi-plasmas in my lists, but they are always outnumbered by grav/melta. And yes, Daemons are a bad matchup for me, but they are bad for BA no matter what anyway.

Gun to my head, I would go melta. Melta can hurt vehicles, heavy infantry, and MCs with a good chance of instakilling two of those. Plasma is somewhat better against MCs and heavy infantry due to number of shots, but doesn't have the same level of effectiveness against vehicles.

I don't think that grav has made plasma obsolete. Grav is more expensive and more specialized against MCs and heavy infantry. Against vehicles, plasma wins out. If you're planning on being mobile and don't have relentless, plasma wins out again. It's also comforting to know that your gun still works against something that doesn't rely on a high armour save to survive.

"Against vehicles, plasma wins out."

Not AV 13/14. That's actually pretty important.Especially if there are grav amps involved. Then it extends down to AV 12.

Against vehicles, plasma wins out.

Wut?

Plasma is terrible vs vehicles. Only AV10/11 are really in any danger. Grav on the other hand takes down any 3HP vehicle in 2 successful shots, regardless of AV value.

I agree with the other poster, grav has made plasmaguns obsolete 99% of the time.

I don't see much point in mentioning grav weapons in this thread, given that the OP is trying to figure what to arm his Scions with.

Anyway, the advantage of melta over plasma is that it can threaten almost everything in the game; the disadvantage is the shorter range and only one shot.

To me, it depends on the unit that is taking the weapon and what you want that unit to accomplish most of the time.

Martel732 wrote:"Against vehicles, plasma wins out."

Not AV 13/14. That's actually pretty important.Especially if there are grav amps involved. Then it extends down to AV 12.

This is true. I means to say against light vehicles and medium vehicles (up to AV12) plasma wins out.

Big Blind Bill wrote:

Against vehicles, plasma wins out.

Wut?

Plasma is terrible vs vehicles. Only AV10/11 are really in any danger. Grav on the other hand takes down any 3HP vehicle in 2 successful shots, regardless of AV value.

I agree with the other poster, grav has made plasmaguns obsolete 99% of the time.

Grav only takes down a 3HP vehicle on two rolls of a 6. Unless you have a grav cannon with a grav amp, melta is much more reliable.

I don't think grav has made plasma obsolete. Plasma is the more TAC choice, while grav only works against units with good armour saves.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Against vehicles, plasma wins out.

Wut?

Plasma is terrible vs vehicles. Only AV10/11 are really in any danger. Grav on the other hand takes down any 3HP vehicle in 2 successful shots, regardless of AV value.

I agree with the other poster, grav has made plasmaguns obsolete 99% of the time.

Most Vehicles out there are only AV11/10 on the rear and sides.
I usually have little issue pull that off with either Drop Pods/Stormravens/Outflanking Wolf Scouts.

Who let's that happen, or at least without massive reprisals? Sure, come blow up my Rhino and Predator, and then I kill your list.

The only vehicles that you would LIKELY get your points back on w/ outflanking plasma or drop-podding plasma are...

-Dreadnoughts
-DE Vehicles
-IG Vehicles
-Ork Vehicles

As you can see the list consists of mostly Codex/Units that people consider weak.

 Quickjager wrote:
The only vehicles that you would LIKELY get your points back on w/ outflanking plasma or drop-podding plasma are...

-Dreadnoughts
-DE Vehicles
-IG Vehicles
-Ork Vehicles

As you can see the list consists of mostly Codex/Units that people consider weak.

My short list of Vehicles I have trouble kill with Plasma Weapons.
Land Raiders, Monoliths.

As far as my opponents Letting me, I don't let them I force it.
Outflanking Units have an 18" Plasma Double Tap Threat Zone. So if they want to avoid my Outflanked they end up in a 36" wide area in the center of the table. Any that do not say 18" I can usually quickly take out.
Pods...I usually place their initial placement about 1" From my target and even with scatter it is easy to disembark and take my shots at the side if not the rear armor.

'Without Massive Reprisal'...fine take out my Wolf Scouts and ignore my Thunderwolves.
{We can play this tit-for-tat all day if you want, but I find it a waist of time as we can not put our forces on the table and see what would really happen. I am telling you how I use them and my experiences with Plasma}

".I usually place their initial placement about 1" From my target and even with scatter it is easy to disembark and take my shots at the side if not the rear armor. "

This can prevented with initial set up. I do it all the time.

Your plasma spam list has TWC as well?

Martel732 wrote:
".I usually place their initial placement about 1" From my target and even with scatter it is easy to disembark and take my shots at the side if not the rear armor. "

This can prevented with initial set up. I do it all the time.

Your plasma spam list has TWC as well?

My Wolf Scouts list does.

My Plasma SPAM Deep Penetration unit is my Sternguard in the Raven and usually a Dread with an Assault Cannon or Ironclad with paired Heavy Flamers.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:"Against vehicles, plasma wins out."

Not AV 13/14. That's actually pretty important.Especially if there are grav amps involved. Then it extends down to AV 12.

This is true. I means to say against light vehicles and medium vehicles (up to AV12) plasma wins out.

Big Blind Bill wrote:

Against vehicles, plasma wins out.

Wut?

Plasma is terrible vs vehicles. Only AV10/11 are really in any danger. Grav on the other hand takes down any 3HP vehicle in 2 successful shots, regardless of AV value.

I agree with the other poster, grav has made plasmaguns obsolete 99% of the time.

Grav only takes down a 3HP vehicle on two rolls of a 6. Unless you have a grav cannon with a grav amp, melta is much more reliable.

I don't think grav has made plasma obsolete. Plasma is the more TAC choice, while grav only works against units with good armour saves.

Totally agree. If I need hard anti tank then I take melta.

However my post was discussing plasma vs grav when used against vehicles. In which case I believe grav is the far stronger choice.

Most Vehicles out there are only AV11/10 on the rear and sides.
I usually have little issue pull that off with either Drop Pods/Stormravens/Outflanking Wolf Scouts.

Fine do it all you like, but doing so is less reliable than melta, and more difficult to do than grav - who can simply shoot a vehicle on its front armour for the same effect, which makes them much more difficult to counter.

I don't think grav has made plasma obsolete. Plasma is the more TAC choice, while grav only works against units with good armour saves.

If you do the maths and compare grav vs plasma, then you'd see the difference you are claiming isn't really evident until you are shooting units with a 5+ save. Until plasma gets into rapid fire range grav is still on average doing more damage vs 4+ save targets.

If you consider how many armies there are in the game that are MEQ, or use heavy vehicles, then you will realize that plasma might only be better vs daemons, orks, and possibly tyrannids. But then again, if you are shooting units with such bad saves, why even use your special weapons against them when bolters etc will have a similar effect.

To sum up: Plasmagun's share of the anti MEQ/ light vehicle market has been eaten into by many new additions.
Melta remains one of the strongest anti tank weapons in the game.

If forced to chose between the two, I'd take the melta, and take a plasma alternative somewhere else.
For example, I'd put the melta on the scions, but also have a plasma executioner somewhere on the table too.

For Scions, melta. Guard armies don't really struggle with heavy infantry, just need something to crack open the transports. Not really sure why people are discussing grav as if they're cracking some kind of Da Vinci code for everyone. Last time I checked Scions can't use grav.

MarsNZ wrote:
For Scions, melta. Guard armies don't really struggle with heavy infantry, just need something to crack open the transports. Not really sure why people are discussing grav as if they're cracking some kind of Da Vinci code for everyone. Last time I checked Scions can't use grav.

Thank you!

I mena yes, in theory the OP can go out and get some allied SMs and arm them with grav but that's not the question at hand.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
For Scions, melta. Guard armies don't really struggle with heavy infantry, just need something to crack open the transports. Not really sure why people are discussing grav as if they're cracking some kind of Da Vinci code for everyone. Last time I checked Scions can't use grav.

Thank you!

I mena yes, in theory the OP can go out and get some allied SMs and arm them with grav but that's not the question at hand.

Although the OP stated they had scions in mind, the actual thread title is "Meltagun vs plasmagun."

Everything is relative, and grav is becoming more common as a replacement for plasma, so it is worth mentioning.

It might be worth pointing out that Imp. Armour Vol. 2 2nd Ed. has the Drop Pod upgrade Legacies of Glory: Isstvan V Dropsite Massacre, giving a Drop Pod a no-scatter rule for a reasonable fee. If have a Melta-weapon-heavy squad, this is a pretty solid way to make sure you're in Melta-SR range of whatever you want them to hit.

Distance for strength and AP
it depends on what you fight really. I go against Tau so I want the range of Plasma so I can rapid fire 6 inches closer because I move a unit of Chaos Space Marines with Plasma Guns in a rhino 18 inches flat out then if they survive being opened up, 12 more inches then disembark, my CSM can hit from a 6ft boards by round 2 taking out armour and Elites with relative ease. If I can get within 18 inches I can fire off 4 plasma attacks and 8 bolster attacks which I have used to take out crisis suits and even the odd broadside.

However if I take melta and use the same approach and survive getting within 12 inches I get 4 melta shots and 16 rapid fire bolter shots which I have used to take out xv104 riptides before

Q

Plasma is really not comparable to melts as it is not really used for the same thing.

Melta is really supposed to be an anti-vehicle weapon that excels at taking out high Av vehicles.

Plasma is really more suited to taking out tough infantry, and light Av targets. The reason why grav gets brought up is because of the fact that it also fills this same role, except with less drawbacks and for the same price.

Really though all of the negativity for plasma would be resolved if they went to 10pts instead of 15. Then people would take them again. I still use las-plas on my razorbacks and its because it is appropriately priced.

One of the limiting factors to melta in my opinion is that unless the rest of the squad has something similar then their firepower is not being used when your shooting a vehicle. Tac Marines in particular seem to have this issue where you get 1-2 melta shots and the rest of the unit twiddles their thumbs and maybe at most throws a krak grenade. Melta is a very powerful weapon but if you can only take a small number of the guns then it becomes less reliable. Full on drop melta squads (3-5 guys all with meltas) are just nasty and can fairly reliably delete an enemy vehicle in one round of shooting.

Plasma is generally your heavy infantry and MC killer which can also be hurt by lasgun or bolter fire (usually) which lets the entire squad utilize their firepower. It makes it more well rounded and have better synergy with standard loadout shooting focused infantry. It can even hurt some vehicles but generally best left to cutting down 2+ armor.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Plasma is really not comparable to melts as it is not really used for the same thing.

Melta is really supposed to be an anti-vehicle weapon that excels at taking out high Av vehicles.

Plasma is really more suited to taking out tough infantry, and light Av targets. The reason why grav gets brought up is because of the fact that it also fills this same role, except with less drawbacks and for the same price.

Really though all of the negativity for plasma would be resolved if they went to 10pts instead of 15. Then people would take them again. I still use las-plas on my razorbacks and its because it is appropriately priced.

Take them again? I never stopped using them even when they over heated on a 1-2 when you double tapped.

As an Ork player, please load up on as much Grav with amps as possible. Then take all the plasma you can. Forgot all about that AP1 Str 8-denying-FNP-to-T4-Models. Y'all don't need Str 8.

Heaven forbid you ever take Str 10. Total waste of points doubling out T5 models like TWC.

 PipeAlley wrote:
As an Ork player, please load up on as much Grav with amps as possible. Then take all the plasma you can. Forgot all about that AP1 Str 8-denying-FNP-to-T4-Models. Y'all don't need Str 8.

Heaven forbid you ever take Str 10. Total waste of points doubling out T5 models like TWC.

Heh. Obviously.

Also, while many of you are likely aware of it, it might be worth pointing out that Preferred Enemy can bring about a substantial reduction in Gets Hot! problems.

As many have said, it's down to what you need the squad to do.

I think it also depends if you're running these in an AM list or as scions from the MT codex, as your orders change quite a bit. You can give scions a preferred enemy rule, or you can give them rending. In both cases, plasma gets much better.

I'm curious why the volley gun is not on your list; 24" salvo 2/4 plus synergizes well with orders and the hot shots? Yes please.

Issue with the volley gun is that the turn they drop in they only get 12" with 2 shots and scions rarely live to fire a 2nd time. If they are shooting out of some vehicle then an argument could be made for them but for drop scions (what they are known for and what they seem to do the best at) salvo is a huge handicap.

I had to think about it for a moment wondering if you meant the damage type or the weapons. So I voted on the actual weapons. But if we're talking type I would take plasma, I just love plasma pistols...