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Hi all,

maybe silly question, but me and my friend just got argument today about first blood.

So if independent character is slain while joined to some unit that is obviously first blood right? I mean when i was search for answer to my question i found some arguments even about that.

But what if that unit is destroyed and only IC is left? Does that grant first blood? I think it does not as in IC rules it says IC count as part of the unit for all rules purposes

Also is it any different for any other victory point scenario in game? Like kill points or whatever?

Cheers for help.

Yes, you calculate first blood at the end of the game, and they are the first unit that was killed at that point.

At the end of the game the IC is not a member of the unit.

My instinct tells me that it's First Blood in both cases.

Case #1 (IC slain while in Unit):
The Independent Character is a unit in your army, but just so happens to be a unit that can form up with other units. Although we say that the IC's unit no longer exists, that's not quite true. Instead we're told that the IC counts as part of that unit for all intents and purposes, but that's not the same as saying that the IC's unit no longer exists. It exists, it's just not going to interact with the rules in any way. When slain though, the model in the unit has been slain, and one model from the unit the IC was a part of has been slain.

Case #2 (Unit slain while joined with IC):
Similar here, except that you're right - it's part of the unit. If it's 10 Ork Boyz and a Warboss, and 10 Ork Boyz die, then the unit technically still exists, and is composed of 1 Warboss. Now, here's where I'm uncertain. If the Independent Character immediately reverts to being an IC without a unit, then whoever slew the 10 Ork Boyz would immediately get the First Blood bonus. If, however, the IC only stops being part of the squad at the end of the next movement phase (when the Warboss is no longer within 2" of any other models of that unit), then technically the unit has been slain at that point. Even though this would result in First Blood for the same player the majority of the time, there's just enough wiggle room there for that to not be true (such as by using Vector Strike of flying monstrous creatures).

Hmmm so i probably lost yesterday after all

"If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."

Anyway it is pretty badly worded if you think about it, i mean yeah... unit of one model is unit of one model so what? But i can see the RAI i guess

ICs are their own unit. Even though join other units, they never stop counting as unit in their own right - specifically, an HQ choice unit.

So, yes, if an IC is the first to die, he counts as first blood to the enemy. Same goes for dedicated transports.

 Yarium wrote:
Case #1 (IC slain while in Unit):
The Independent Character is a unit in your army, but just so happens to be a unit that can form up with other units. Although we say that the IC's unit no longer exists, that's not quite true. Instead we're told that the IC counts as part of that unit for all intents and purposes, but that's not the same as saying that the IC's unit no longer exists. It exists, it's just not going to interact with the rules in any way. When slain though, the model in the unit has been slain, and one model from the unit the IC was a part of has been slain.

Correct up to a point. 1) There is a rule that actually addresses this and states that ICs are their own unit for this Victory Point. 2) If the IC is out of coherency at the end of a Movement Phase, then it is no longer part of the unit, and you can't get farther away than off the table.

 Yarium wrote:
Case #2 (Unit slain while joined with IC):
Similar here, except that you're right - it's part of the unit. If it's 10 Ork Boyz and a Warboss, and 10 Ork Boyz die, then the unit technically still exists, and is composed of 1 Warboss. Now, here's where I'm uncertain. If the Independent Character immediately reverts to being an IC without a unit, then whoever slew the 10 Ork Boyz would immediately get the First Blood bonus. If, however, the IC only stops being part of the squad at the end of the next movement phase (when the Warboss is no longer within 2" of any other models of that unit), then technically the unit has been slain at that point. Even though this would result in First Blood for the same player the majority of the time, there's just enough wiggle room there for that to not be true (such as by using Vector Strike of flying monstrous creatures).

ICs revert to their own unit at the start of the Phase after the unit joined was otherwise destroyed.

Where this one gets confusing is if you had a Wierdboy and a Warboss in the unit...

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
ICs are their own unit. Even though join other units, they never stop counting as unit in their own right - specifically, an HQ choice unit.

Not entirely true. If they never stop counting as a unit, than there is no point in joining. I can shoot out your ICs from your units without ever touching the rest of the unit, nor could they provide Look Out Sir! to the IC. Indeed, the phrasing of the rule regarding ICs and a dead joined unit state that they revert to being their own unit.

So, no. They do stop counting as their own unit when joined to another. It's just possible to separate them from the unit unlike the Sergeant/Nob/etc.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
ICs are their own unit. Even though join other units, they never stop counting as unit in their own right - specifically, an HQ choice unit.

So, yes, if an IC is the first to die, he counts as first blood to the enemy. Same goes for dedicated transports.

Oh yeah, this is very clear i think. It was just the part when unit dies and character stays that i wasnt sure about

I have always believed you get first blood in either of the scenarios you mentioned. I think the only people who might have an argument, and this is from bed without my codex, is in the case of Boss Snikrot. He is counted as a separate elite choice except when purchased and joined to a unit of commandos. He no longer takes up his own slot... But is he his own unit for either first blood scenario... Someone check their codex or I'll post back after the gym in the morning.

Snikrot is absolutely in all cases a separate unit and IC.

Not taking up an FOC slot really does not matter, guard platoons are at the very least 2 separate units and can be 19(I think) although they are all 1 FOC slot.

All DTs do not take up FOC slots, etc.

How about Meks? They are only characters that become permanently attached to a unit during deployment, but either cost an FOC or don't, and are an HQ.

Hadn't thought about meks.

It seems that while they are listed under HQs, they will never actually have that battlefield roll(unless you attach them to an HQ Infantry unit, that is also an IC, and now a permanent unit where 1 model is an IC and the other isn't and totally divides by zero when it comes to vps). They are never units on their own(post warlord trait selections), so would never count as a separate unit.

It falls into a rules-pit and should be discussed with your opponent(I would suggest a houserule on formations that lock units together like a seer council to not count those ICs/units separately either; but that is wholly HIWPI). RAW for Meks is not very clear, units at Army Selection do not often matter when it comes to units post deployment/during game(combat squads/combined platoons give vps for the actual units in play, not the purchased units: combat squads double and platoons reduce)