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nkelsch wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Glad you keep that racial bias rocking. Keep it classy. The thread title could just as well read:

"Repeated mentally ill law offender found dead in cell"

First of all, a theft is a theft. Period. It's a crime and a crime you can go to jail for. In his case, it wasn't the first time he broke the law, but rather the third...or more. He declined to eat which most likely is the primary death cause given that his body was in a very weakened state. That "poor guy" is a criminal. Hands down.

But in america...

*White kid shoplifts, police call the parents, give him a stern talk and sent him home with mom and dad, no charges filed, no trip down town.
*Black kid enters a store, is followed around simply for being black, shoplifts, police throw the book at them, charge them with a crime, book them, neglect to allow the child to call parents for hours, abuse rights and give the kid a 'record' which leads to future abuse.

*White homeless person shoplifts, police pay for the snack and take him down to the local shelter to get him help.
*Black homeless shoplifts, they tackle him to the ground, put him in cuffs, give him a strip search, book him and let the system eat him.

I work with community children and homeless support groups and it is like night and day the difference in treatment people get. Some people are given benefit of the doubt and are seen as someone who needs help, and others are scum-sucking criminals... And sadly it is done along racial lines many times.

This story stinks... no one should be in JAIL for 4 months for a minor crime. It is not defensible or justifiable.

This is why everyone (including themselves) look down on America.
ffs I thought racial bias ended 20 years ago.

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
This is why everyone (including themselves) look down on America.

I don't think everyone looks down on us. I mean, I don't, but I still recognize that we aren't perfect (but who is?)

ffs I thought racial bias ended 20 years ago.

Uh, racism and prejudice was still very much a thing in 1995.

 Hordini wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
The Justice system in America has some serious problems.

I agree with you, but that article makes me think that New York has some serious problems, at least in that particular case.

Oh does it ever. Our justice system is horrible, especially in NYC. The NYPD has a lot of problems.

Although there have been some moves to try reform, so there is hope.

He was a thief. Where's the downside?

 Frazzled wrote:
He was a thief. Where's the downside?

You know frazzled, usually your inane comments are entertaining. This is not one of those times. I sincerely hope this is a bad joke.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
He was a thief. Where's the downside?

You know frazzled, usually your inane comments are entertaining. This is not one of those times. I sincerely hope this is a bad joke.

I had my sense of humor surgically removed when I was 30.

Whats the issue. he was a thief. He's a waste of skin. Quit being a thief and harming others.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
He was a thief. Where's the downside?

You know frazzled, usually your inane comments are entertaining. This is not one of those times. I sincerely hope this is a bad joke.

I had my sense of humor surgically removed when I was 30.

Whats the issue. he was a thief. He's a waste of skin. Quit being a thief and harming others.

...

Sometimes I have to wonder if you are being serious or not.

Was he a thief?

Did he serve his time and then was a productive member of society?

If the answers are yes and no then he's worthless and does nothing but harm others. Have compassion for his victims.

Oh, yes. The only way for him to repay stealing $5 worth of groceries is his death.

Not only that, he was held in that jail for 4 months, and had still not gone to trial. Over $5.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have been arrested or anything, but is human life really that cheap to you. That he should die, just because he stole stuff worse less the clothes I am wearing now (and I do not buy expensive clothes).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Oh, yes. The only way for him to repay stealing $5 worth of groceries is his death.

Not only that, he was held in that jail for 4 months, and had still not gone to trial. Over $5.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have been arrested or anything, but is human life really that cheap to you. That he should die, just because he stole stuff worse less the clothes I am wearing now (and I do not buy expensive clothes).

Not that he should die, but that he's an absolute waste and not worthy of resources.
Again feelcompassion for his victims. help ex cons who are trying to rehabilitate. Criminals, until they reform themselves,are only worthy of being dog food.

Quit feeling for the bad guys already.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Oh, yes. The only way for him to repay stealing $5 worth of groceries is his death.

Not only that, he was held in that jail for 4 months, and had still not gone to trial. Over $5.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have been arrested or anything, but is human life really that cheap to you. That he should die, just because he stole stuff worse less the clothes I am wearing now (and I do not buy expensive clothes).

Not that he should die, but that he's an absolute waste and not worthy of resources.
Again feelcompassion for his victims. help ex cons who are trying to rehabilitate. Criminals, until they reform themselves,are only worthy of being dog food.

Quit feeling for the bad guys already.

Then I hope police lock up all speeders and abuse their rights until they die. I mean they are criminals and speeding harms way more people than petty shoplifting. People actually die from extenuating circumstances of aggressive driving and speeding... I can't find a google article where someone ever died due to shoplifting.

Anyone who speeds for any reason should have their life taken away from them and turned into food for animals.

Am I doing it right now?

 Frazzled wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Oh, yes. The only way for him to repay stealing $5 worth of groceries is his death.

Not only that, he was held in that jail for 4 months, and had still not gone to trial. Over $5.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have been arrested or anything, but is human life really that cheap to you. That he should die, just because he stole stuff worse less the clothes I am wearing now (and I do not buy expensive clothes).

Not that he should die, but that he's an absolute waste and not worthy of resources.
Again feelcompassion for his victims. help ex cons who are trying to rehabilitate. Criminals, until they reform themselves,are only worthy of being dog food.

Quit feeling for the bad guys already.

I kind of agree, he shouldn't have died but I wouldn't feel sorry for the guy.

Everyone is pointing out how small the amount is but it is surprisingly common for people to steal small amounts of goods. In NZ it is common for people to sneak extra produce or take a can of food try avoid paying for it through various means. Individually this seems like little, but collectively the problem gets larger. Even where I work, in a boat store, we get thefts ranging from whole boats to fishing hooks. It all adds up during the stock take (for the ones we don't catch).

When something is stolen, you then need to sell other items to cover that loss, and the items you sell to cover that loss aren't making money. This harms a companies ability to:
Buy more product to sell which supports other businesses.
Harms a companies ability to pay it's employees.
Harms the owner of the shop by directly reducing his income (which isn't always as large as you'd think)
Wastes police time which costs all of us money
and there is probably more.

Imagine this one guys stealing $5, then multiply it buy however many people steal a day in various amounts and it becomes a huge problem. I would not hold people in high regard who are actively detrimental to society. Stealing has negatively impacted a lot of people in my life and probably will continue to do so. I remember when my fathers business went downhill after a few clients refused to pay him for his work and if he went out of business I can't imagine how my life would have bee shaken up. It doesn't matter who is doing the stealing, rich, poor, kids, adults or anyone, it is almost always harmful beyond the dollar value.Now there is one less person on the street doing it. They just need to chuck more of them into cells.

As for speeders, there definitely needs to be a harsher punishment too, I work next to the main road of NZ and there are very frequently crashes that end in fatalities and major injuries. It also holds up traffic big time and has many other issues. Again, speeding alone sounds harmless, but it all adds up when you look at the bigger picture. I would not feel sympathy for those whose speed being treated harshly.

I don't think death is the penalty for smaller crimes (or any crime) but I certainly think these people do not need sympathy.

What do you think the penalty should be then? How long of a jail or prison sentence is long enough? Just long enough to ensure that the rest of their life is ruined by being unable to get a decent job, making them more likely re-offend and be a burden on society for the rest of their lives?

 Frazzled wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Oh, yes. The only way for him to repay stealing $5 worth of groceries is his death.

Not only that, he was held in that jail for 4 months, and had still not gone to trial. Over $5.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have been arrested or anything, but is human life really that cheap to you. That he should die, just because he stole stuff worse less the clothes I am wearing now (and I do not buy expensive clothes).

Not that he should die, but that he's an absolute waste and not worthy of resources.
Again feelcompassion for his victims. help ex cons who are trying to rehabilitate. Criminals, until they reform themselves,are only worthy of being dog food.

Quit feeling for the bad guys already.

Think on the worst thing you've ever done Frazzled, something you've felt guilty about. I'm sure you haven't lived a perfect life, none of us have. At some point you did somebody wrong, and I want you think about what that worst thing is. Do you think it was worse than taking $5.00 from them? If so shut up.

In fact just shut up in general. You speak of compassion but the persona you've built here is consistently incapable of it. I just really hope this is the internet tough guy trolling it seems like. Either way it certainly is an illustration of the attitudes I outlined in my previous post in this thread.

Is it normal to lock someone up for 4 months without trail over a $5 theft? Justice system needs to act a bit quicker than that.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Is it normal to lock someone up for 4 months without trail over a $5 theft? Justice system needs to act a bit quicker than that.

In New York maybe. It's definitely not normal where I'm from.

 Swastakowey wrote:


I don't think death is the penalty for smaller crimes (or any crime) but I certainly think these people do not need sympathy.

So the homeless and mentally ill do not need sympathy? Especially when most of them are in the situation they are due to the greed and apathy of the rest of us?

Interesting world view.

 Hordini wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Is it normal to lock someone up for 4 months without trail over a $5 theft? Justice system needs to act a bit quicker than that.

In New York maybe. It's definitely not normal where I'm from.

Normal, no. But, as evidenced by this, it looks like it does happen.

 Hordini wrote:
What do you think the penalty should be then? How long of a jail or prison sentence is long enough? Just long enough to ensure that the rest of their life is ruined by being unable to get a decent job, making them more likely re-offend and be a burden on society for the rest of their lives?

I suppose this is the issue. They already are a burden on society, so the choices are keep them in prison (a burden the system is set up to take) or fine them (a portion of these people likely cannot afford the fine).

HOWEVER your assumption is based on the fact people who steal are poor or degenerates. I have not seen anything in my life to suggest stealing is from one group, in fact I have seen more stealing from people who are from average or above average homes etc. It sounds like you want to make punishments based around the assumption the person is poor, but then this only caters to a part of the group responsible.

I don't have a solution though I will admit. Either way the solution needs to remove the burden from a few people (the victims) and add the burden to everyone in a system designed to hold the burden (which right now, is prison or jail) but maybe something else needs to be put in place. I don't know the answer there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:


I don't think death is the penalty for smaller crimes (or any crime) but I certainly think these people do not need sympathy.

So the homeless and mentally ill do not need sympathy? Especially when most of them are in the situation they are due to the greed and apathy of the rest of us?

Interesting world view.

Assuming mentally ill and poor are the only ones who speed and steal. Also I doubt its my fault these people are poor. I have seen people who grew up poor and came out fine. Of course, it's not that simple, but if someone commits a crime, I would not have much sympathy for them no.

Also I hold sympathy for the poor (and donate to charities etc) but if they commit a crime then... sympathy gone. I have seen more well off people steal though, but that is my experience.

 Hordini wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Is it normal to lock someone up for 4 months without trail over a $5 theft? Justice system needs to act a bit quicker than that.

In New York maybe. It's definitely not normal where I'm from.

Would you even get 4 months inside for stealing $5 of goods? Even that seems questionable to me. It looks like the court system has been circumvented and he's had four months imprisonment when he should have had treatment and he's never had his day in court - which those saying 'he's just a thief' should try to remember.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Is it normal to lock someone up for 4 months without trail over a $5 theft? Justice system needs to act a bit quicker than that.

It's potentially a violation to the right to a fair and speedy trial so, no, not normal.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Is it normal to lock someone up for 4 months without trail over a $5 theft? Justice system needs to act a bit quicker than that.

It's potentially a violation to the right to a fair and speedy trial so, no, not normal.

Everyone knows that there is only one amendment that actually matters, and it sure as feth isn't the Sixth (or Eighth).

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
What do you think the penalty should be then? How long of a jail or prison sentence is long enough? Just long enough to ensure that the rest of their life is ruined by being unable to get a decent job, making them more likely re-offend and be a burden on society for the rest of their lives?

I suppose this is the issue. They already are a burden on society, so the choices are keep them in prison (a burden the system is set up to take) or fine them (a portion of these people likely cannot afford the fine).

Prisons are generally overcrowded in America. And there are other options.

http://www.nationofchange.org/utah-ending-homelessness-giving-people-homes-1390056183

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Is it normal to lock someone up for 4 months without trail over a $5 theft? Justice system needs to act a bit quicker than that.

It's potentially a violation to the right to a fair and speedy trial so, no, not normal.

Everyone knows that there is only one amendment that actually matters, and it sure as feth isn't the Sixth (or Eighth).

It is the most hotly contested. Most others people accept as settled, and do not often dispute the language. Every part of the Bill of Rights is important.

 Scrabb wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
What do you think the penalty should be then? How long of a jail or prison sentence is long enough? Just long enough to ensure that the rest of their life is ruined by being unable to get a decent job, making them more likely re-offend and be a burden on society for the rest of their lives?

I suppose this is the issue. They already are a burden on society, so the choices are keep them in prison (a burden the system is set up to take) or fine them (a portion of these people likely cannot afford the fine).

Prisons are generally overcrowded in America. And there are other options.

http://www.nationofchange.org/utah-ending-homelessness-giving-people-homes-1390056183

Yes but again you are assuming only the homeless steal or are only catering to homeless. When I said burden I meant criminals not homeless. Anybody can be a criminal.

As for over crowded prisons:

New Zealand has followed the pattern of many Western countries by locking up more and more of its citizens and the crime rate has fallen. The number of people in prison has been growing steadily for the last 50 years and since 2010

From Wikipedia, not sure how accurate this is but maybe people get locked up because it is more effective at stopping crime?

Im all for helping the homeless, just not keen feeling bad for criminals.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
It is the most hotly contested.

Not true.

Most others people accept as settled, and do not often dispute the language.

The number of Supreme Court cases involving every other Amendment of the Bill of Rights (save for the Third Amendment ) tends to disagree with your assessment.

Every part of the Bill of Rights is important.

Of course they are.

The thing I was highlighting is that obsession over the Second Amendment often correlates with not giving a feth about have anything else in the Constitution. Just look at any thread in the OT about constitutional rights being infringed and you'll see what I'm talking about.

In some country you lose a left hand, in some country you get caned a 100 time. I think we need to bring back caning
Give aid within first before given aid to some country that really doesn't like us

 Swastakowey wrote:


Imagine this one guys stealing $5, then multiply it buy however many people steal a day in various amounts and it becomes a huge problem.

You can't punish people for the actions of others which they have nothing to do with.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I would not hold people in high regard who are actively detrimental to society. Stealing has negatively impacted a lot of people in my life and probably will continue to do so. I remember when my fathers business went downhill after a few clients refused to pay him for his work and if he went out of business I can't imagine how my life would have bee shaken up. It doesn't matter who is doing the stealing, rich, poor, kids, adults or anyone, it is almost always harmful beyond the dollar value.Now there is one less person on the street doing it. They just need to chuck more of them into cells.

$5.
5 fething dollars. That might as well be nothing.

I sincerely hope you are joking. Saying that you should have no sympathy for a guy who stole $5 because they are detrimental to society is quite disturbing. By your logic, there is no one for whom you should have sympathy. I am pretty sure that pretty much everyone has damaged "society" for more than $5 at least once in their lifetime. (I know I did)
Tell me, why is stealing for 5 dollars such a heinous crime that we should completely disregard everything positive about that person and have no sympathy for him anymore?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:


Imagine this one guys stealing $5, then multiply it buy however many people steal a day in various amounts and it becomes a huge problem.

You can't punish people for the actions of others which they have nothing to do with.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I would not hold people in high regard who are actively detrimental to society. Stealing has negatively impacted a lot of people in my life and probably will continue to do so. I remember when my fathers business went downhill after a few clients refused to pay him for his work and if he went out of business I can't imagine how my life would have bee shaken up. It doesn't matter who is doing the stealing, rich, poor, kids, adults or anyone, it is almost always harmful beyond the dollar value.Now there is one less person on the street doing it. They just need to chuck more of them into cells.

$5.
5 fething dollars. That might as well be nothing.

I sincerely hope you are joking. Saying that you should have no sympathy for a guy who stole $5 because they are detrimental to society is quite disturbing. By your logic, there is no one for whom you should have sympathy. I am pretty sure that pretty much everyone has damaged "society" for more than $5 at least once in their lifetime. (I know I did)
Tell me, why is stealing for 5 dollars such a heinous crime that we should completely disregard everything positive about that person and have no sympathy for him anymore?

$5 alone may not be much, but when a lot of people do it, it all adds up. As I said, if you let people get away scott free over $5 theft then I think you are pretty much saying to people "it is ok to steal if it isn't much". But then when 200 people steal the total comes to $1000 (assuming they all steal the same amount). So no the person being punished for stealing $5 is not being punished for others, but he can't be just let go or anything because then it creates a bigger problem.

I have never stolen before either, even when hungry (never been starving though I will admit, because a bag of pasta is like 1 dollar and can feed me for days).

As for disregarding anything positive (can't be much if they steal) I merely said I won't be sympathetic. People are making out that this guy is a victim when if anything, the poor guy running the dairy trying to get buy is the victim, how often do these "petty $5 thefts happen" to him? Probably more than you'd think. I get the criminal may have had a bad upbringing, but that doesn't all of a sudden make what he does excusable.

No one here knows anything about this guy besides what is read from the article.