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Hi all, quick question. Can Arkos the Faithless, Necrosius, and Zhufor be chosen as an HQ in a renegades and heretics army list?

I have gone back and forth while researching this, so consider me 'on the fence but leaning towards No.'

It may comes down to how you interpret this part of a Rule:
When selecting an allied contingent for an army using the Allies Matrix, a Renegade and Heretic army is considered identical to a standard Chaos Space Marine Army; save it may select an allied contingent from a Chaos Space Marine Faction....
Allies and Renegades and Heretics List

Does not outright state they are the same faction, most likely it informs us to use the 'Chaos Marine' faction on the allied table in the same way we use 'imperium of man,' however:
If they are the same faction nothing stops you from taking a 'Chaos Marine Army,' selecting the Head Quarter Units you are curious about for that army, and then putting Renegade and Heretic Units into it as well.
If they are not the same faction, then you will only be able to take the above mentioned Head Quarter Units in a 'Chaos Marine Detachment' and will need to ally in the Renegade and Heretic Units as their own detachment.

My advise would be to talk to your opponents and see if they believe they are the same faction, before fielding a detachment consisting of these Head Quarter choices and Renegade and Heretic Units.
Alternatively, you can bypass the problem by running multiple Detachments and simply ally in the Head Quarter Units you want, they are battle brothers after all.

If you look at the Purge and the other Detachment, they say 'Chaos Renegade' Faction. If anything else, I'd say the cements the fact these are a different Faction based on common sense, not actually RAW. The actual place where it says they are Faction Chaos Renegades is weirdly absent.

That is interesting, given the book has the following Rule:
The army list may be used in conjunction with any of the Force Organization Charts presented in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.
- Using Force Organization Charts

Not having access to The Purge Detachment I did a quick look on-line for discussions on it, seems the faction is "Renegades of Vraks" or Chaos Space Marines.
This is different then a Renegade and Heretic Army, which uses Rules that really appear to have been written for 6th edition... creating the usual problems.

NO

I'm pretty sure next to their entry it says they can only be taken in a Chaos Space Marine army. Only the two Daemon princes (I think) from IA5 2Ed where it says they can be selected as a HQ choice for Renegades.

Do the say they can be chosen as part of a Chaos Renegades faction army? Chaos Renegades is its own faction, like Dark Angels and Codex Space Marines. Can you take Space Marine characters as HQs in a DA army?

maceria wrote:
Do the say they can be chosen as part of a Chaos Renegades faction army? Chaos Renegades is its own faction, like Dark Angels and Codex Space Marines. Can you take Space Marine characters as HQs in a DA army?

Can you quote that one with a page number because it seems like me and Jinx can't find that.

Vraks book, Renegades of Vraks Armies (pg 236) section The Renegades of Vraks Army List, first para. "The Renegades of Vraks army list is considered to be a variant of the Renegades and Heretics... and is of the same faction."

That, and the note on the detachments, is the most concrete that I can find giving them any faction at all.

The specifying that they are exactly like, but totally not, CSM for allies chart (used in both books), along with the references to being their own faction while not outright saying it I feel make a very strong RAI argument that they are their own faction.

Lastly, I was fairly certain there some something in IA13 that specifically said Renegades faction, but I think IA13 might have been written before the term faction was in common usage in codexes. They are consistently called a Renegades army. I feel I may have retroactively filled that term into IA13 in my head.

Taken together they describe, and are treated for all rules purposes as, a single Army List Entry. When using such a codex, each unit’s Faction is the same as its codex title.
- Army List Entries, main Rulebook
In the case of older publications, the Faction of all the units described in a codex is the same as the codex’s title.
- Factions, main Rulebook

While Imperial Armour 13 was released after 7th Edition hit the shelves, the choice of words used within the book clearly mark it as a '6th edition' book. Not surprising, it was released only a few months afterwards so it wouldn't have been possible to scrap the book completely and update it to fit a new Rule-set. Given that it is detailing a completely separate 'Army List' within this part of the book, I propose that that whole section is actually a 'mini-codex' with the title of "Renegades and Heretics," thus creating a Renegades and Heretics faction as per the two above Rules.

The only thing people can argue is that Imperial Armour 13 is not a 'Codex' so the subject matter does not match that of the Rules, but I think this is close enough to show clear intent....