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In general, are SM jump pack units fast enough to catch other units in assault reliably or do they suffer in comparison to bikes?

Bikes are basically better in every way.

Only a select few. For example, DC have FnP and a huge number of attacks to warrant selection over Bikes.

Skyhammer can assault out of DS, that's pretty fast lol.

In most cases, Bikes are better for assault. HoW, T5 and whatever CT your running.

Jump Pack Infantry can't turbo-boost, so they're slower. Bikes can charge just as far and are more durable to boot. The only thing Jump Pack units have going for them is the ability to Deep-Strike on the cheap.

They're fast enough, they're just not usually sturdy enough. They're no harder to kill than Tactical Marines (maybe even easier actually, since at least Tac Marines can hide in a Metal Box) and generally lack any hard hitting guns like Melta/Plasma to at least shoot at things on the way in.

Bikes are better in every way - sure you pay a bit more, but at least you get your points worth and then some.

 GoonBandito wrote:
They're fast enough, they're just not usually sturdy enough. They're no harder to kill than Tactical Marines (maybe even easier actually, since at least Tac Marines can hide in a Metal Box) and generally lack any hard hitting guns like Melta/Plasma to at least shoot at things on the way in.

Bikes are better in every way - sure you pay a bit more, but at least you get your points worth and then some.

Blood Angels and CSM can take double melta or plasma in a 5-man squad, and loyalists can take drop pods as well. Assault Marines are solid, just not for assaulting.

If Jumpacks had the jump move ability in the assault phase then they would be awesome. That means they can move. Shoot. then move again in the assault phase.

 Filch wrote:
If Jumpacks had the jump move ability in the assault phase then they would be awesome. That means they can move. Shoot. then move again in the assault phase.

That is jetpack infantry......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GoonBandito wrote:
They're fast enough, they're just not usually sturdy enough. They're no harder to kill than Tactical Marines (maybe even easier actually, since at least Tac Marines can hide in a Metal Box) and generally lack any hard hitting guns like Melta/Plasma to at least shoot at things on the way in.

Bikes are better in every way - sure you pay a bit more, but at least you get your points worth and then some.

In current meta, I think SM bikes is better used as grav weapon platform whenever possible. It is generally a waste to kit them as assault units barring the built of a CM smashfucker. So I think the option for fast assault is better be tooled up Vanguard Veterans accompanied by a JP Chaplain.

Jump packs are better only when there is lot of an impassable terrain.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Jump Pack Infantry can't turbo-boost, so they're slower. Bikes can charge just as far and are more durable to boot. The only thing Jump Pack units have going for them is the ability to Deep-Strike on the cheap.

And jump over impassable terrain if you play with it (or enemy units, so it's harder to screen against them), but these advantages are kind of outweighed by all the crazy stuff bikes get. Also, jump packs tend to be slightly cheaper, but not enough really.

Also, if the enemy has a lot of tightly packed units, jump units are more likely to be able to hit and run and then move into position to hit whatever target they want. Bikes either have to have enough movement to move around, or they have to assault them in the order the enemy put them in. Again, situational...

An an avid BA assault player, jump pack units are fast enough vs Necrons, pod lists, other assault armies. Against the shooty meta we are in bikes are superior due to turbo-boost and not receiving -2 on the charge, but you need an IC in the unit since bikes really lack punch.

Assault marines ARE fast enough.

But considering they got the same job as bikes, they are overcosted in all but the most multi-level heavy terrain out there, where they can get to the high levels with ease, while the bikes might not be able to.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Assault marines ARE fast enough.

But considering they got the same job as bikes, they are overcosted in all but the most multi-level heavy terrain out there, where they can get to the high levels with ease, while the bikes might not be able to.

The ability to fire the jump pack in both the Movement and Charge phases should be standard on all Jump Pack equipped Marines, not just the Raven Guard for the price that is paid for them. That or they should be able to assault out of deep strike. Then they might be on par with Bikes. A 5-man Bike Squad pays 30 pts for +1T, better movement, Relentless(for Grav Spam), TL Bolters, the ability to Jink, better weapon upgrades(Grav Spam, Melta Spam, and if all else fails, Plasma Spam), and the ability to Turboboost compared to an Assault Squad having, at best, +1A.

The day of the jump pack has been over for some time now.

Vanguard vets are pretty good just because the weapons cost so little, standard assault marines though are only useful in a skyhammer though

Re-rolling charge ranges is a great buff, but for some inexplicable reason you lose it if you actually use your 12" jump move in the movement phase. Raven Guard are the only ones who can make decent use of them.

Although I love jump packs, they are rather lacklustre at times, and can feel slower than they should. I think 'using' them in the assault phase you give you 6"+D6 charge range to guarantee that distance and hammer of wrath. HoW on it's own is poor, especially when you have to give up jumping in the movement phase to do so.

D

That's about what I was expecting. It feels like bikes have so many advantages over jump packs that it's hard to take them unless you're supported by Raven Guard CTs or something similar.

T5 AND relentless? Come on.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Assault marines ARE fast enough.

But considering they got the same job as bikes, they are overcosted in all but the most multi-level heavy terrain out there, where they can get to the high levels with ease, while the bikes might not be able to.

The ability to fire the jump pack in both the Movement and Charge phases should be standard on all Jump Pack equipped Marines, not just the Raven Guard for the price that is paid for them. That or they should be able to assault out of deep strike. Then they might be on par with Bikes. A 5-man Bike Squad pays 30 pts for +1T, better movement, Relentless(for Grav Spam), TL Bolters, the ability to Jink, better weapon upgrades(Grav Spam, Melta Spam, and if all else fails, Plasma Spam), and the ability to Turboboost compared to an Assault Squad having, at best, +1A.

21 pts per bike.*

Its only good on a table with LOTS of terrain and areas that bikes cant get into.

Bikes need a nerfing. they are pretty fantastic.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Assault marines ARE fast enough.

But considering they got the same job as bikes, they are overcosted in all but the most multi-level heavy terrain out there, where they can get to the high levels with ease, while the bikes might not be able to.

The ability to fire the jump pack in both the Movement and Charge phases should be standard on all Jump Pack equipped Marines, not just the Raven Guard for the price that is paid for them. That or they should be able to assault out of deep strike. Then they might be on par with Bikes. A 5-man Bike Squad pays 30 pts for +1T, better movement, Relentless(for Grav Spam), TL Bolters, the ability to Jink, better weapon upgrades(Grav Spam, Melta Spam, and if all else fails, Plasma Spam), and the ability to Turboboost compared to an Assault Squad having, at best, +1A.

21 pts per bike.*

Crap, I fail at math. For TWENTY points, you get all the advantages of Bikes.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Assault marines ARE fast enough.

But considering they got the same job as bikes, they are overcosted in all but the most multi-level heavy terrain out there, where they can get to the high levels with ease, while the bikes might not be able to.

The ability to fire the jump pack in both the Movement and Charge phases should be standard on all Jump Pack equipped Marines, not just the Raven Guard for the price that is paid for them. That or they should be able to assault out of deep strike. Then they might be on par with Bikes. A 5-man Bike Squad pays 30 pts for +1T, better movement, Relentless(for Grav Spam), TL Bolters, the ability to Jink, better weapon upgrades(Grav Spam, Melta Spam, and if all else fails, Plasma Spam), and the ability to Turboboost compared to an Assault Squad having, at best, +1A.

The problem with that, is that makes them flat out better than jetpack units, by giving them the one ability that jetpack units have over them.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Assault marines ARE fast enough.

But considering they got the same job as bikes, they are overcosted in all but the most multi-level heavy terrain out there, where they can get to the high levels with ease, while the bikes might not be able to.

The ability to fire the jump pack in both the Movement and Charge phases should be standard on all Jump Pack equipped Marines, not just the Raven Guard for the price that is paid for them. That or they should be able to assault out of deep strike. Then they might be on par with Bikes. A 5-man Bike Squad pays 30 pts for +1T, better movement, Relentless(for Grav Spam), TL Bolters, the ability to Jink, better weapon upgrades(Grav Spam, Melta Spam, and if all else fails, Plasma Spam), and the ability to Turboboost compared to an Assault Squad having, at best, +1A.

The problem with that, is that makes them flat out better than jetpack units, by giving them the one ability that jetpack units have over them.

Here's a thought, combine Jump Pack and Jet Pack infantry into one thing.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Assault marines ARE fast enough.

But considering they got the same job as bikes, they are overcosted in all but the most multi-level heavy terrain out there, where they can get to the high levels with ease, while the bikes might not be able to.

The ability to fire the jump pack in both the Movement and Charge phases should be standard on all Jump Pack equipped Marines, not just the Raven Guard for the price that is paid for them. That or they should be able to assault out of deep strike. Then they might be on par with Bikes. A 5-man Bike Squad pays 30 pts for +1T, better movement, Relentless(for Grav Spam), TL Bolters, the ability to Jink, better weapon upgrades(Grav Spam, Melta Spam, and if all else fails, Plasma Spam), and the ability to Turboboost compared to an Assault Squad having, at best, +1A.

The problem with that, is that makes them flat out better than jetpack units, by giving them the one ability that jetpack units have over them.

Here's a thought, combine Jump Pack and Jet Pack infantry into one thing.

Well, it would require some tweaking, but it would work.

Assault marines have more close combat attacks, make better use of combat doctrines, and are smaller and more flexible than bikes. I don't think they're better than bikes since the bikes' easy access to cover saves and grav guns makes them appealing against the more powerful sorts of armies, but the jump packers' nimbleness makes them appealing for certain army builds. I like to use them as flankers, a reserve, or a surprise attack element for my battleline of devastator and tactical squads.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Assault marines ARE fast enough.

But considering they got the same job as bikes, they are overcosted in all but the most multi-level heavy terrain out there, where they can get to the high levels with ease, while the bikes might not be able to.

The ability to fire the jump pack in both the Movement and Charge phases should be standard on all Jump Pack equipped Marines, not just the Raven Guard for the price that is paid for them. That or they should be able to assault out of deep strike. Then they might be on par with Bikes. A 5-man Bike Squad pays 30 pts for +1T, better movement, Relentless(for Grav Spam), TL Bolters, the ability to Jink, better weapon upgrades(Grav Spam, Melta Spam, and if all else fails, Plasma Spam), and the ability to Turboboost compared to an Assault Squad having, at best, +1A.

The problem with that, is that makes them flat out better than jetpack units, by giving them the one ability that jetpack units have over them.

Here's a thought, combine Jump Pack and Jet Pack infantry into one thing.

Well, it would require some tweaking, but it would work.

My farsight enclaves would approve of this

Then again...warp spiders and swooping hawks will be even more dominating.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Assault marines ARE fast enough.

But considering they got the same job as bikes, they are overcosted in all but the most multi-level heavy terrain out there, where they can get to the high levels with ease, while the bikes might not be able to.

The ability to fire the jump pack in both the Movement and Charge phases should be standard on all Jump Pack equipped Marines, not just the Raven Guard for the price that is paid for them. That or they should be able to assault out of deep strike. Then they might be on par with Bikes. A 5-man Bike Squad pays 30 pts for +1T, better movement, Relentless(for Grav Spam), TL Bolters, the ability to Jink, better weapon upgrades(Grav Spam, Melta Spam, and if all else fails, Plasma Spam), and the ability to Turboboost compared to an Assault Squad having, at best, +1A.

The problem with that, is that makes them flat out better than jetpack units, by giving them the one ability that jetpack units have over them.

Here's a thought, combine Jump Pack and Jet Pack infantry into one thing.

Jets Packs could still be better by allowing them to reroll all moves in the assault phase, you know, so the people who already have them don't feel too bad about the rest of us getting gneneric JSJ. My Orks would love this ability as it would make them very fast (and we already have a rule that allows them to reroll distance during assault).

Jump pack assault units have to be REALLY good at what they do to be worth it. Blood Angels assault marines taken in the Baal Strike Force FOC have str and init5 on the charge with a high number of attacks, but you never see them in more than 5 man squads because it is simply not enough. Sanguinary guard, on the other hand, have the added durability of artificer armor and a veterans statline to go with their power weapons, all for a reasonable price. Death Company are probably the gold standard for jump pack assault units, as they get a bucket of special rules for a marginal increase in cost over ASMs.

Jump pack speed IS fast enough for an assault unit. But that unit has to be REALLY good at what it does.

 th3maninblak wrote:


Jump pack speed IS fast enough for an assault unit. But that unit has to be REALLY good at what it does.

Do you consider SM Vanguard squads to be good enough?

Considering the amount of different builds you can get with them, I'd assume that at least a few loadouts would be truly competitive.