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Hello everyone, Im not sure where this question would go and i apologuise if its in the wrong place.

I am returning to PLAYING 40k after a good, 3/4 years of a collecting spree with 0 gaming and i want to run a heavy assault Ork army, now, would it ever be possible to Assault Turn 1 (if youre first or second) or is it literally not possible without cheating (which spoils every game, no if, buts or coconuts)

Thanks and i would love to hear peoples thoughts about this.

Totally legal, but tricky to pull off, especially if going first.

Normal deployment leaves a gap of 24", and unless you use an electron microscope to measure, you're likely to be at least 24.1" from the nearest enemy.

Some units can charge that distance though. For example, there is a Warlord Trait that adds 1" to charge moves, so that combined with a 12" move (bike, jump pack or beast etc.) can charge turn 1 (although you'll usually only bluff an opponent into deploying right on his line once).

It's obviously very possible if your opponent Infiltrates or Scouts closer to you, or if you're going second and your opponent has moved towards you.

Note that there are several things which restrict a unit's ability to assault, including arriving from reserves that turn, Infiltrate and Scout.

It is hard, but I have done it. I went 2nd and managed to get off an Assault on Guard Chimera with Arjac's Shield Brothers and three Characters. It was brutal of not total overkill.

Also Orks' Boarding Plank adds 2" the turn you assault. You also get to reroll a single die for charges on non-Waaagh turns.

It's much harder turn 1 than in the past but with flat out moves its really easy to get a turn 2 charge. Also there is a 5 Battlewagon formation that allows you to Scout 12", thus denying turn 1 but guaranteeing a turn 2 Charge.

Necrons can do it quite easily.

1) Deploy a unit of scarabs on the deployment line.
2) Have a canoptek spyder nearby
3) Spawn a scarab base, it's end can be 3" out of your deployment zone (2" coherency + 1" scarab base)
4) The unit acts as normal so you move up 12" ignoring terrain. You're now 15" from your deployment zone.
5) Charge whatever is in range.

If you add more spyders, you can add more bases and increase the threat range.

Swooping hawks for eldar can do it even easier. 18" move then they only have a 7" charge with fleet if they set up directly opposite something.

 roflmajog wrote:
Swooping hawks for eldar can do it even easier. 18" move then they only have a 7" charge with fleet if they set up directly opposite something.

Swooping/Zooming Flyers can't charge nor being charged.
Neither can't charge the turn they change flying mode.

EDIT: Unless they have a special rule that I'm not aware of.

Also, Skyhammer can DS and charge on Turn1 (if you want an easy and specific, no general, way)

Wallur wrote:

 roflmajog wrote:
Swooping hawks for eldar can do it even easier. 18" move then they only have a 7" charge with fleet if they set up directly opposite something.

Swooping/Zooming Flyers can't charge nor being charged.
Neither can't charge the turn they change flying mode.

"Swooping Hawks" is a name of an Eldar unit of Jump Infantry that have a move of 18" (instead of the normal 12" for Jump), not a unit of Flying Monstrous Creatures called "Hawks" that are in "Swooping" flight mode.

 Quanar wrote:

Wallur wrote:

 roflmajog wrote:
Swooping hawks for eldar can do it even easier. 18" move then they only have a 7" charge with fleet if they set up directly opposite something.

Swooping/Zooming Flyers can't charge nor being charged.
Neither can't charge the turn they change flying mode.

"Swooping Hawks" is a name of an Eldar unit of Jump Infantry that have a move of 18" (instead of the normal 12" for Jump), not a unit of Flying Monstrous Creatures called "Hawks" that are in "Swooping" flight mode.

Oh, thank you, I'm kind of new don't know much about eldars.

DaPino wrote:
3) Spawn a scarab base, it's end can be 3" out of your deployment zone (2" coherency + 1" scarab base)

Note that the Canoptek Scarab base must also be placed within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder that created it.

Sammael can add 3" to the charge roll of a unit of bikes

It is, of course, much easier to assault on turn one if you go second!!

 Quanar wrote:
Totally legal, but tricky to pull off, especially if going first.

Normal deployment leaves a gap of 24", and unless you use an electron microscope to measure, you're likely to be at least 24.1" from the nearest enemy.

Some units can charge that distance though. For example, there is a Warlord Trait that adds 1" to charge moves, so that combined with a 12" move (bike, jump pack or beast etc.) can charge turn 1 (although you'll usually only bluff an opponent into deploying right on his line once).

It's obviously very possible if your opponent Infiltrates or Scouts closer to you, or if you're going second and your opponent has moved towards you.

Note that there are several things which restrict a unit's ability to assault, including arriving from reserves that turn, Infiltrate and Scout.

There is no rule prohibiting first turn charges, as has been stated. Deployment zones are EXACTLY 24"
Apart.

if the guy that I quoted wanted to deny me my 12 inch move and boxcar charge range, I would pack up and not play him. Him saying that I will likely 24.1 inches away at deployment is incorrect. I am just as likely to be 23.9 inches away at deployment. On top of that, if I did continue the game, I'd require that he never move his full movement values because he's human and can't possibly measure six inches correctly... See how stupid this train of thought gets when you start requiring PERFECT measurements, instead of using common sense .measuring?

... I think the point is that most players will not be right on the edge of the DZ, but rather an inch or more back, especially if you appear to be setting up for an ASAP Charge.

greytalon666 wrote:
There is no rule prohibiting first turn charges, as has been stated. Deployment zones are EXACTLY 24" Apart.

Independently, from standard Deployment and without any other interaction, correct.

However, as already been stated, there are many ways to stop a First Turn Charge, such as Infiltrate, Scout, Deep Strike (not all Deep Striking is from Reserves) and entry from Reserves.

greytalon666 wrote:
There is no rule prohibiting first turn charges, as has been stated. Deployment zones are EXACTLY 24"
Apart.

if the guy that I quoted wanted to deny me my 12 inch move and boxcar charge range, I would pack up and not play him. Him saying that I will likely 24.1 inches away at deployment is incorrect. I am just as likely to be 23.9 inches away at deployment. On top of that, if I did continue the game, I'd require that he never move his full movement values because he's human and can't possibly measure six inches correctly... See how stupid this train of thought gets when you start requiring PERFECT measurements, instead of using common sense .measuring?

Common sense, though, means you can only come into base contact with a model which can't legally be less than 24" from you if: 1) you can move 24" (12" move + 12" charge, for example) and 2) the models were actually 24" from each other. Given that they can't legally be less than 24" from each other, they'd have to be exactly 24" from each other, something that's almost impossible to do, humanly.

Now, if you wanna "fudge" it to allow for the physical impossibility of measuring exactly 24", you'd need your opponent to say "these models here are supposed to be exactly at the deployment line", and you'd need to say the same of your models. Simply placing them at what you think is exactly the deployment line is not enough, since you (or your opponent) might actually want them slightly behind, maybe to prevent a first turn assault.

But under no circumstances should "common sense measuring" allow something that's impossible because of it not being legal. So "I am just as likely to be 23.9 inces away at deployment" is not a valid common sense argument... since while you just might be at 23.9", you're not legally supposed to be.

Toniork wrote:

greytalon666 wrote:
There is no rule prohibiting first turn charges, as has been stated. Deployment zones are EXACTLY 24"
Apart.

if the guy that I quoted wanted to deny me my 12 inch move and boxcar charge range, I would pack up and not play him. Him saying that I will likely 24.1 inches away at deployment is incorrect. I am just as likely to be 23.9 inches away at deployment. On top of that, if I did continue the game, I'd require that he never move his full movement values because he's human and can't possibly measure six inches correctly... See how stupid this train of thought gets when you start requiring PERFECT measurements, instead of using common sense .measuring?

Common sense, though, means you can only come into base contact with a model which can't legally be less than 24" from you if: 1) you can move 24" (12" move + 12" charge, for example) and 2) the models were actually 24" from each other. Given that they can't legally be less than 24" from each other, they'd have to be exactly 24" from each other, something that's almost impossible to do, humanly.

Now, if you wanna "fudge" it to allow for the physical impossibility of measuring exactly 24", you'd need your opponent to say "these models here are supposed to be exactly at the deployment line", and you'd need to say the same of your models. Simply placing them at what you think is exactly the deployment line is not enough, since you (or your opponent) might actually want them slightly behind, maybe to prevent a first turn assault.

But under no circumstances should "common sense measuring" allow something that's impossible because of it not being legal. So "I am just as likely to be 23.9 inces away at deployment" is not a valid common sense argument... since while you just might be at 23.9", you're not legally supposed to be.

If we ever played, I would never allow you to complete a charge. Its impossible to complete a charge, by what you have stated about measuring, because models can never be base to base because their [i]atoms[I] repel each other and prevent base to base contact.

Stop being a dick in your games, follow RAW and RAI and allow for human error, AND the golden rule.

Seriously, I don't understand how people in hour camp can't even allow for the possibility of being exactly x inches away happening "randomly by intention". IE being 24" apart, both exactly, and by total accident because "the human eye can not measure distances exactly".

Get off vassal and go play a real game with real people.

greytalon666 wrote:
If we ever played, I would never allow you to complete a charge. Its impossible to complete a charge, by what you have stated about measuring, because models can never be base to base because their [i]atoms[I] repel each other and prevent base to base contact.

Stop being a dick in your games, follow RAW and RAI and allow for human error, AND the golden rule.

Seriously, I don't understand how people in hour camp can't even allow for the possibility of being exactly x inches away happening "randomly by intention". IE being 24" apart, both exactly, and by total accident because "the human eye can not measure distances exactly".

Get off vassal and go play a real game with real people.

Go back and read what I wrote. "Randomly by intention" should never result in illegal situations. "Ok, we're supposed to be more than 24" inches apart, because there is no legal way for us to be placed within 24", but since we were loose about how we placed our models, we ended up within 24", so I complete my charge" is completely bogus. "I intended to be within 24" of you, and can do so legally, but ended up slightly over 24" because I'm not a human electron microscope, so I complete my charge" is fine.

Intention, should, should be stated if it can be contentious. If you intent to go for a turn 1 charge, and need the distance to be exactly 24" for it, and your opponent seems to have deployed right at the line... ask him. He might've intended to be right at the line, in which case great for you! But he might have intended to be just before the line, in which case there is no legal way (nevermind "perfect measuring") for you to close the distance, so you should not be able to complete your charge, regardless of what you roll or where you intended to deploy.

I'm NOT saying "measure it down to the atom... if there is but a single quark's width between the models, you can't complete the charge". I'm saying that in many cirucumstances, you can (maybe even should) measure not from where the models actually are, but from where they're supposed/intended to be, precisely to allow for human error and physical limitations.

If.my opponent measures out 12" and places them at what their tape measure says is 12", there is no need for them to declare intent. Their intent is clearly to set up as close to me as possible.

There is an ork bike build where you do not get a charge in turn 1 but you DO get a 2+ cover save and a 4++ invulnerable and a 5++ feel no pain save - basically the best save in the game on turn 1

this is the link showing a guy using this build (he has "dinosaur bikes" but other than that you can see it working)

https://youtu.be/uyyLmL9ooTM?t=1117

greytalon666 wrote:
If.my opponent measures out 12" and places them at what their tape measure says is 12", there is no need for them to declare intent. Their intent is clearly to set up as close to me as possible.

Yup, that would make it clear that was their intent, sure!