Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Has there been any talk of the N-1 star fighter or the J-type diplomatic barge for consideration in the game? I've found some nice proxy ships on shape ways so may just make home brew rules for now.

 jdamaso111 wrote:
Has there been any talk of the N-1 star fighter or the J-type diplomatic barge for consideration in the game? I've found some nice proxy ships on shape ways so may just make home brew rules for now.

No.

FFG has made it explicitly clear that this game takes place in the Rebellion Era (and now beyond). Do not expect to ever see an Prequel-era ships in X-Wing. The closest we will probably ever come is the upcoming Gozanti-class cruiser, which had a brief cameo in The Phantom Menace and can be seen in The Clone Wars TV show. I think it's safe to say that it made it into X-WIng because it has been featured in Rebels, which takes place a couple years before A New Hope.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 jdamaso111 wrote:
Has there been any talk of the N-1 star fighter or the J-type diplomatic barge for consideration in the game? I've found some nice proxy ships on shape ways so may just make home brew rules for now.

No.

FFG has made it explicitly clear that this game takes place in the Rebellion Era (and now beyond). Do not expect to ever see an Prequel-era ships in X-Wing. The closest we will probably ever come is the upcoming Gozanti-class cruiser, which had a brief cameo in The Phantom Menace and can be seen in The Clone Wars TV show. I think it's safe to say that it made it into X-WIng because it has been featured in Rebels, which takes place a couple years before A New Hope.

That's a huge bummer.

That is indeed a cool cruiser, but I was hoping for this one.
:(

I'm going to buy a few of the N-1 3D minis and run them with the stats of the X-Wing rookie pilot.

 jdamaso111 wrote:
I'm going to buy a few of the N-1 3D minis and run them with the stats of the X-Wing rookie pilot.

The N-1 was actually closer to the Headhunter in terms of performance (but worse).

Consider the Z95 at 2222 and TIE at 2330 are 2-3 decades beyond the N1...your looking at a ship likely to be 1111 in performance. Not much room down their for older ships to occupy.

It was just a quick idea I had, I will end up dropping 1 shield value and a hull point off it but it's just for fun for me to play with a ship I like. I'm not looking to be too groundbreaking with it.

dkellyj wrote:
Consider the Z95 at 2222 and TIE at 2330 are 2-3 decades beyond the N1...your looking at a ship likely to be 1111 in performance. Not much room down their for older ships to occupy.

The Z-95 was around before the Clone Wars, it's a fairly old design.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
Consider the Z95 at 2222 and TIE at 2330 are 2-3 decades beyond the N1...your looking at a ship likely to be 1111 in performance. Not much room down their for older ships to occupy.

The Z-95 was around before the Clone Wars, it's a fairly old design.

I'd think it would have the same stats as a Z-95 but the upgrades of an X-wing (ie astromech and torps)

 jdamaso111 wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 jdamaso111 wrote:
Has there been any talk of the N-1 star fighter or the J-type diplomatic barge for consideration in the game? I've found some nice proxy ships on shape ways so may just make home brew rules for now.

No.

FFG has made it explicitly clear that this game takes place in the Rebellion Era (and now beyond). Do not expect to ever see an Prequel-era ships in X-Wing. The closest we will probably ever come is the upcoming Gozanti-class cruiser, which had a brief cameo in The Phantom Menace and can be seen in The Clone Wars TV show. I think it's safe to say that it made it into X-WIng because it has been featured in Rebels, which takes place a couple years before A New Hope.

That's a huge bummer.

The now officially canon Marvel comics series has pretty consistently been showing the use of Prequel era ships still in use during the original trilogy era, so I would say its only a matter of time. Also worth mentioning that the upcoming Armada Wave 2 squadron pack includes a Scurrg H-6 Havoc Bomber (presumably Nyms ship), which is a definite prequel era vessel flown by a prequel era character, so I'd say its more a matter of time on how long it takes FFG to run out of good ideas for non-prequel based original trilogy era ships (which IMO is a line theyve already crossed with Wave 8... seriously, the Punishing One? At least revise the friggin design to look less early 90s), keeping in mind that thsu far all the other ships shown in that pack have been released for X-Wing.

Consider the Z95 at 2222 and TIE at 2330 are 2-3 decades beyond the N1...your looking at a ship likely to be 1111 in performance. Not much room down their for older ships to occupy.

False. I'm not going to go into the technical reasons why thats a faulty assumption, but I'll suggest you pay attention to what is released this Friday and realize that it has 30+ years of technological development on the T-65 X-wing and TIE/LN fighter currently in the game. Also keep in mind that the Z-95 itself predates the Clone Wars (and the N-1) by about 20-30 years.

It's unclear how fast technology advances in the Star Wars universe.

If you look at our universe, fighters from the mid 30s, with a very small handful of exceptions, were grossly obsolete by 1941 or 1942. Niche ships held on longer (most famously the fairie Swordfish), but as fighter engine horsepower rose dramatically, so did performance. To give an idea of how rapid this evolution was, a late war Mustang had a better chance against an early jet fighter in Korea, than early WWII fighters had against the Mustang!

On the flip side, current fighters have remained in service for decades, while bombers can stay in service a half century or more!

The closest canon explanation is that with a long period of relative peace, arms development stagnated prior to the Clone wars/Rebellion. The Rebels made more use of starfighters than any other force, and thus drove starfighter development rapidly.

Resulting in the only moderately better T-70 X-wing and TIE/FO fighters 30 years later, neither of which are notably superior to other fighters that coexisted with its predecessor (assuming that the E-Wing & TIE Defender are remaining in canon, which is a grey area since they would have technically been released post-Disney)?

Personally I am a proponent of the theory that technology has basically reached a pinnacle of development within the Star Wars setting, and rather than new technologies and more advanced designs what you instead see is shifts in design paradigms and existing technologies being utilized in combined in new ways to achieve the desired design specifications while operating within imposed design limitations (such as size, weight, cost, etc.).

chaos0xomega wrote:
Resulting in the only moderately better T-70 X-wing and TIE/FO fighters 30 years later, neither of which are notably superior to other fighters that coexisted with its predecessor (assuming that the E-Wing & TIE Defender are remaining in canon, which is a grey area since they would have technically been released post-Disney)?

Personally I am a proponent of the theory that technology has basically reached a pinnacle of development within the Star Wars setting, and rather than new technologies and more advanced designs what you instead see is shifts in design paradigms and existing technologies being utilized in combined in new ways to achieve the desired design specifications while operating within imposed design limitations (such as size, weight, cost, etc.).

Not this again? Look, you can keep your pet theory if you like, but I think it's pretty clear that technology progresses. Lets look at the three ships in the X-wing family (Z-95, T-65, T-70) that FFG has created stats for. In the first changeover, from Z-95 to T-65, we see increases in armour, weapon loadout, and crew compliment, without significant changes in speed and maneuverability. Given that the X-wing would be a much heavier ship (due to the extra armour, guns and droid), we can see that the Engines must either have gotten better, or materials got lighter. Both should count as tech progression. Then, with the next generation of X-wing, they get faster, more maneuverable, more heavily shielded, and get a "Tech" upgrade to specifically to show that they are higher tech. Not only have the engines gotten more powerful yet again, but something between the powerplant and the shield generator has improved, as we have 50% more shields.

Now, I'm sure that you are going to have a rebutle for this, so here are a few generic counter-counterpoints I have:

1) FFG uses a very coarse scale for all of their ships. A T-65 should be massively more maneuverable than a B-wing, but in-game there is not much of a functional difference. This also applies to the Z-95 which is actually supposed to be slower than the X-wing, but FFG couldn't make that happen within their framework, since that would have made it bomber slow. So hose small changes we see in the T-70 are actually pretty massive.
2) You can talk about "Design Philosophy" all you want, but as the Headhunter and T-65 share the same roll, they would have been designed with the same goal in mind. So, the fact that the T-65 has better engines doesn't represent someone saying "Hey, lets actually use good engines on our fighters", but instead engines actually improving. If tech did not progress, all fighters in the same roll would eventually become equal.

So, although we probably are seeing tech progression on the level of today's fighters rather than WW2, tech is progressing.

Star Wars definitely seems to have rather stagnant technical development - seems like for every advancement and refinement that is made, something else is forgotten or regresses. I always got the impression that technology was basically at the pinnacle of what could be accomplished by intelligent beings. The engineers in the Star Wars universe seem to be aware of and have the know-how to build really far-out stuff - but it is perhaps simply not economical do so (all the crazy super-weapons that the Empire builds are often regarded as extravagant more than technically amazing).

Naboo's engineering is certainly shiny, and Watto seems to think that it's high-quality stuff, so I would imagine that the N-1 is a nice high-performance ship. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's a practical combat ship - it may be way too expensive, or have inadequate shielding, or meager offensive capabilities, or maintenance issues, or it only takes premium gas.

If Disney every does a theater re-release of the prequels, then maybe we might see some prequel stuff in the miniatures game. It's all about getting product synergy, and releasing a Naboo Starfighter expansion in 2016 does not drive sales the way that Force Awakens or Rebels stuff does.

There's plenty of evidence of tech increases in Star Wars, even in the movies alone.

In the prequels, Starfighters needed a docking ring to go into hyperspace. By ANH, they could jump with Astromeches on board. By Jedi, the newer ships could jump with on board computers instead of droids.

 Polonius wrote:
There's plenty of evidence of tech increases in Star Wars, even in the movies alone.

In the prequels, Starfighters needed a docking ring to go into hyperspace. By ANH, they could jump with Astromeches on board. By Jedi, the newer ships could jump with on board computers instead of droids.

Military tech, sure. But civilian tech seems to have regressed. I'll betcha money that we see other forms of tech regression in Episode 7.

I would guess that Starfighters, as a weapon of war, go in and out of "fashion." In a relatively stagnant technology pool, I would imagine a rocks/scissors/paper theory dominates.

In a world where nobody has any defences against starfighers, they become very powerful. As soon as both sides of conflict figure out protections, they dwindle in value.

They also could be a weapon of war more suited for "bush wars" than for major battles of the line.

 Polonius wrote:
I would guess that Starfighters, as a weapon of war, go in and out of "fashion." In a relatively stagnant technology pool, I would imagine a rocks/scissors/paper theory dominates.

In a world where nobody has any defences against starfighers, they become very powerful. As soon as both sides of conflict figure out protections, they dwindle in value.

They also could be a weapon of war more suited for "bush wars" than for major battles of the line.

That's pretty much my take on it as well. By necessity, things plateaued a long (long) time ago and while there have technological advances that have been sprinkled throughout the Star Wars timeline, from KOTOR all the way through the Legacy era and beyond, have mostly been pretty small with the occasional cataclysmic event every now and again just so technology can be 'lost' ala 40k. What a military force uses at any given point in time is largely determined by the nature of the current conflict and practical things like resource and logistics. Just because a military ship of a given role is older does not mean it is significantly better or worse than a newer ship of the same role. All you can really say is that the newer ship had the opportunity to be designed with a new set of requirements in mind.

 Polonius wrote:
There's plenty of evidence of tech increases in Star Wars, even in the movies alone.

In the prequels, Starfighters needed a docking ring to go into hyperspace. By ANH, they could jump with Astromeches on board. By Jedi, the newer ships could jump with on board computers instead of droids.

Not really. Both the N-1 and Z-95, which predate the Jedi Starfighter, were equipped with onboard hyperdrives, let alone the other prequel era vessels that were likewise similarly equipped with their own hyperdrives. The concept of a hyperdrive ring, to my knowledge, did not exist within the Star Wars lore until Attack of the Clones was released, and considering how fleshed out the EU was at that point, thats a pretty considerable timeframe.

Not this again? Look, you can keep your pet theory if you like, but I think it's pretty clear that technology progresses. Lets look at the three ships in the X-wing family (Z-95, T-65, T-70) that FFG has created stats for. In the first changeover, from Z-95 to T-65, we see increases in armour, weapon loadout, and crew compliment, without significant changes in speed and maneuverability. Given that the X-wing would be a much heavier ship (due to the extra armour, guns and droid), we can see that the Engines must either have gotten better, or materials got lighter. Both should count as tech progression. Then, with the next generation of X-wing, they get faster, more maneuverable, more heavily shielded, and get a "Tech" upgrade to specifically to show that they are higher tech. Not only have the engines gotten more powerful yet again, but something between the powerplant and the shield generator has improved, as we have 50% more shields.

It could simply be that they needed to stick that higher end stuff into the frame of a fighter. What we know, mathematically, about the energy outputs of vehicles/vessels/weaponry in the star wars universe is that the amount of energy they are packing is beyond astronomically high. It simply wouldn't be scientifically possible for there to be a meaningful increase in power outputs of a vessel from the Z-95 to the T-70 without a T-70 being essentially capable of slagging a Clone Wars era capital ship in just a couple hits from its laser cannons.

Beyond that, keep in mind what the ships of each era are combating. A Z-95 didn't need to double down on laser cannons and engines to defeat ships that were also sporting dual weapons and dual engines. Does that mean that nobody was capable of building a 4 gunned 4 engined ship at the time? No. The Vulture Droid had 4 guns, for example. and if you go back far enough into the lore, as in 3000-4000 years BBY, you see starfighters armed remarkably similarly to X-Wings, Tie Fighters, etc. sporting 4 guns and 4 engines. Oh, and they're also equipped with Class 1 Hyperdrives, have top speeds as fast as A-Wings, etc. etc. etc. So, yeah, tell me again how technology progressed so much over a 4000 year period that by the battle of endor ships are: just as fast, just as maneuverable, just as capable of hyperspace jumps, similarly armed, etc. etc. etc.

Also keep in mind that the ARC-170 was a successor to the Z-95 and a predecessor to the X-Wing. The Z-95, despite being decades older, continues to be used alongside both the X-Wing and the ARC-170. If it was that terribly outclassed, it probably wouldn't be.

Ah, the ARC-170, my favourite example.

In my mind, a superior ship to the T-65 if both were crewed by equally skilled pilots. So why where the Rebels not flying it? More to the point, why did the Empire not fill the hangar bays of each and every Star Destroyer with them?

Simple. It wasn't the right ship for the kind of fight both sides were gearing up for.

Beyond that, the Empire purposefully wanted to replace them with a less heavily armed, more lightly armored ship that didn't have a hyperdrive so as to minimize the damage that a defector or rebellion might have. To compensate, they made the replacement craft faster and more maneuverable, but also cheaper so that they could manufacture them in much greater quantities.

Even still, you could still find Outer Rim Warlords, Pirates, and Resistance movements breaking them out of storage when the need arose. The reason why they weren't commonly used are legion:
-attrition and losses due to war
-assembly line shutdown, either for political reasons or economic ones (a 2014 Dodge Challenger is just as good as a 2015, doesnt mean that Dodge is going to keep making the 2014 model, after all, people always want the latest and the greatest).
-maintainability, it simply might be too costly to upkeep and too much of a hangar queen. This isnt really a tech issue, its a design issue (although its worth noting that modern combat aircraft are much more maintenance intensive than their predecessors).
-Most importantly, wear & tear due to age. Nothing lasts forever (and space actually happens to be an extremely high wear and tear environment), eventually the spaceframes will hit their service lives and need to be retired.

 Siygess wrote:
Ah, the ARC-170, my favourite example.

In my mind, a superior ship to the T-65 if both were crewed by equally skilled pilots. So why where the Rebels not flying it? More to the point, why did the Empire not fill the hangar bays of each and every Star Destroyer with them?

Simple. It wasn't the right ship for the kind of fight both sides were gearing up for.

Another reason I believe the empire didn't use them, was due to greater proportions of them blowing up compared to the ETA-2 Actis Interceptor, so the empire based future ships on that design, neglecting the minor detail that fewer ETA-2 Actis interceptors blew up as they were piloted by Jedi

Dont forget the fact that - stock - you have to three trained crew just to get one ship in the air and performing at 100 percent. Thats fine if you are the Empire and can churn out pilots but for the Rebels it doesnt make sense to have all those precious eggs in one basket when you could have them flying three single-seat fighters in three different engagements. But hey, you aren't telling me anything I haven't already said to my fellow X-Wing players since it came out

Sadly - whether by choice or simply through licensing restrictions - FFG's attitude to the prequel films and time line is not unlike many fans.. e.g. they happened but we shall never speak of them again.

From what I have read about the N-1, it carried 12 proton torpedoes and had a shield generator as well as a hyperdrive. They functioned as great dog fighters but were mediocre as bombers.

Here is the link to the N-1 Minis if anyone is interested.

http://www.shapeways.com/product/A56MEAWXR/n-1-naboo-starfighter-1-270?optionId=8540502&li=ostatus

I was goping to say... I have some of the old ones if you want them. But since that's taken care of...

 jdamaso111 wrote:
From what I have read about the N-1, it carried 12 proton torpedoes and had a shield generator as well as a hyperdrive. They functioned as great dog fighters but were mediocre as bombers.

Here is the link to the N-1 Minis if anyone is interested.

http://www.shapeways.com/product/A56MEAWXR/n-1-naboo-starfighter-1-270?optionId=8540502&li=ostatus

Oooohhhh
This is very much appreciated.
I tend to think of the N1 as, not technically inferior, just much lighter on shields, weapons and durability than the X-Wing.

That seems like a lot of cleaning on fiddly parts. Then again, I never ordered through a 3D printing service, maybe it is super easy. I'd worry about breaking them.

If anyone wants my PVC ones, let me know. I think I have two.

Hope not!

 jdamaso111 wrote:
Has there been any talk of the N-1 star fighter or the J-type diplomatic barge for consideration in the game? I've found some nice proxy ships on shape ways so may just make home brew rules for now.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no! its not! It's quite a relief actually.

 jdamaso111 wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 jdamaso111 wrote:
Has there been any talk of the N-1 star fighter or the J-type diplomatic barge for consideration in the game? I've found some nice proxy ships on shape ways so may just make home brew rules for now.

No.

FFG has made it explicitly clear that this game takes place in the Rebellion Era (and now beyond). Do not expect to ever see an Prequel-era ships in X-Wing. The closest we will probably ever come is the upcoming Gozanti-class cruiser, which had a brief cameo in The Phantom Menace and can be seen in The Clone Wars TV show. I think it's safe to say that it made it into X-WIng because it has been featured in Rebels, which takes place a couple years before A New Hope.

That's a huge bummer.

I agree with jmad, its a bummer. I think the majority of the prequel era designs are better choices to add to the game than a lot of the stuff we've been getting over the past couple waves.