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Okay, so I just got into this game, and maybe that's the problem.

I went all in and picked up a good amount of stuff for scum and villainy while another member of the game group went ahead and picked up some imperials.

After deciding we liked the game well enough, he went deeper and picked up the Imperial Raider-class Corvette. We went over the rules, and while I am sure we did some things wrong just from the sheer number of differences with the epic game piece compared to the normal game pieces, I got completely rolled up and kicked by this thing.

We were playing 200 points, Doing this from memory so I apologize if I misremember an upgrade without the cards in front of me but I believe I was running the following-ish

Kath Scarlet (Firespray)
- Veteran Instincts
- K4 Security Droid
- Mangler Cannon (I think?)

Binayre Pirate (z-95 headhunter)
- Deadman Switch

Binayre Pirate (z-95 headhunter)
- Deadman Switch

Black Sun Soldier (z-95 headhunter)
- Deadman Switch

Black Sun Soldier (z-95 headhunter)
- Deadman Switch

IG-88C (Aggressor)
- IG-2000 Title
- Accuracy Corrector
- Mangler Cannon
- Inertial Dampeners
- Autothrusters

IG-88D (Aggressor)
- IG-2000 Title
- Accuracy Corrector
- Mangler Cannon
- Inertial Dampeners
- Autothrusters

Basically just a combination of the two 100 point fleets I have tried out so far.

My opponent was running the corvette with 40 points of upgrades, completely unknown to me outside of having Ion weapons, and a 60 point decimator, pretty sure it was fitted out for bomb dropping.

Now, tactics wise, I sent the IG-88s to deal with the decimator, which they did fairly well, especially with Kath getting in a lucky hit on turn two which caused a crit which cost him his upgrades and pilot ability. Sadly, they spent the rest of the match trying to finish off the flying tank, while the interceptor had it's way with me.

Now, I get that I think I should have focused the rear instead of the front arc due to lighter shielding and in the long run hurting it's energy supply, and I get that it can't maintain a full barrage for too long due to energy costs, but by the time it finally ran low on energy all I had left was two damaged IG-88s.

Was this just a bad game?

Is 200 points too small a game for these epic level ships?

Do you need an epic ship to fight an epic ship?

Any thoughts would e appreciated! Especially if they are scum/villainy related ideas on how to deal with this titan

From a battle report I saw on youtube, a bunch of TIE were able to cripple the aft section of a CR-90 corvette with deidcated fire, so I don't think you need an epic sized ship.

As I am learning as well, it comes down to your battle plan, mostly.

And sometimes the dice hate you. It happens.

If you can, get behind it, and stay there. The Raider has a blind spot at its back, where you can sit and shoot it, without any chance of being shot yourself

when fighting the huge ships, torpedos are your friend

 statu wrote:
If you can, get behind it, and stay there. The Raider has a blind spot at its back, where you can sit and shoot it, without any chance of being shot yourself

Indeed.

I had an A-wing get behind my Raider and just completely wreck it with a Proton Rocket.

Just like the computer games, then. The early ones at least, before X-Wing Alliance introduced the "engine wash" effect. Park up behind a Star Destroyer, put something heavy on the "fire" button and go away for a cup of tea.

Yeah, I tried to get kath scarlet in behind it but that range four made the flanking very difficult. Sounds like it was my execution of the plan rather than the plan itself then.

In that low of points, should I have just ignored the decimator and bum rushed it with kath and the IG88s to ensure I got to rear arc then?

I'm starting to get the impression that the model that can put out the most hurt is usually a good first target.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I'm starting to get the impression that the model that can put out the most hurt is usually a good first target.

That's usually not a bad strategy.

Yeah, my thinking was that with it's high durability and slow movement it would be worthwhile to try and deal with the decimator first.

Alright, so just bum rush the behemoth. Win big or lose big sounds to be the strategy of choice against it.

Split up and flank the corvette. Unlike a Tantive Corvette (which likes fighting broadside on) a Raider Corvette wants to point itself at the enemy. get on its flanks - ideally its rear flank quarter - and you can fire on whichever half isn't reinforced. Even Z-95s can rack up damage fast on a target without any agility at all, and any energy he pumps into recovering shields isn'tbeing used to fire quad lasers and ion cannons at you.

Kath should keep evading as long as she's in arc because she's an obvious easy target - important enough to kill (unlike the Z-95s), not agile enough to dodge capital guns (unlike the Aggressors).

I assure you you can kill an epic ship with relatively standard kit. A TIE fighter swarm ate the arse end of a covette in two turns in the last epic game I played in.

Another cool solution is to play more games.

You know, to perfect your skills. Your wife will understand.

 Amanax wrote:

Now, tactics wise, I sent the IG-88s to deal with the decimator, which they did fairly well, especially with Kath getting in a lucky hit on turn two which caused a crit which cost him his upgrades and pilot ability. Sadly, they spent the rest of the match trying to finish off the flying tank, while the interceptor had it's way with me.

I'm a little confused here - did your opponent have a TIE Interceptor in his list, or are you referring to the Decimator?

Now, I get that I think I should have focused the rear instead of the front arc due to lighter shielding and in the long run hurting it's energy supply, and I get that it can't maintain a full barrage for too long due to energy costs, but by the time it finally ran low on energy all I had left was two damaged IG-88s.

You do have to accept a certain number of losses - the big ships are quite strong if you simply joust them, so it wouldn't be suprising to lose 100pts worth of stuff to their shooting over the course of the game. He is paying ~150pts for it, so even heavy losses are an acceptable trade.

Was this just a bad game?

Yes. As you play more, you'll become more familiar with the capabilities of the Epic ships, and more easily avoid pitfalls (e.g., flying into range 2 of quad laser turrets). When fighting huge ships, it's important to think about the ranges of all the huge ship's weapons and special abilities. They're slow and ponderous, so you can dictate the flow of the game to an extent with your itty bitty ships. But you do need to play a few games before you really get a feel for what works and what doesn't.

Is 200 points too small a game for these epic level ships?

I think 300-400pts works better, otherwise one side has most of his points wrapped up in his huge ship.

Do you need an epic ship to fight an epic ship?

No, you can do just fine with regular ships. I think your list is fine. The main thing you would want to avoid is using the Z-95's to shoot the epic ship if he's performing the Reinforce action.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Amanax wrote:

Now, tactics wise, I sent the IG-88s to deal with the decimator, which they did fairly well, especially with Kath getting in a lucky hit on turn two which caused a crit which cost him his upgrades and pilot ability. Sadly, they spent the rest of the match trying to finish off the flying tank, while the interceptor had it's way with me.

I'm a little confused here - did your opponent have a TIE Interceptor in his list, or are you referring to the Decimator?.

Sorry, by Interceptor I was referring to the raider. Don't know why I put interceptor.

Now, I get that I think I should have focused the rear instead of the front arc due to lighter shielding and in the long run hurting it's energy supply, and I get that it can't maintain a full barrage for too long due to energy costs, but by the time it finally ran low on energy all I had left was two damaged IG-88s.
You do have to accept a certain number of losses - the big ships are quite strong if you simply joust them, so it wouldn't be suprising to lose 100pts worth of stuff to their shooting over the course of the game. He is paying ~150pts for it, so even heavy losses are an acceptable trade..

Yeah I have come to that conclusion. But wasn't quite sure if I would have enough fire power to deal with his remaining army after.

Was this just a bad game?
Yes. As you play more, you'll become more familiar with the capabilities of the Epic ships, and more easily avoid pitfalls (e.g., flying into range 2 of quad laser turrets). When fighting huge ships, it's important to think about the ranges of all the huge ship's weapons and special abilities. They're slow and ponderous, so you can dictate the flow of the game to an extent with your itty bitty ships. But you do need to play a few games before you really get a feel for what works and what doesn't..

ehhh, I don't see this one. other than getting behind it, there isn't a whole lot I can see to be done to "dictate" the fight. If I fight at range, he clearly has the advantage. Range 2 is by far the worst, as you have mentioned, and range 1 I have to pray I predicted his movement correctly or else my ships just vanish with only the hope of doing 1 or 2 attacks back depending on the size of what he just rammed.

I agree, familiarity will help, but without further explanation, I don't get how you would possibly hope to dictate that monstrosity.

Is 200 points too small a game for these epic level ships?
I think 300-400pts works better, otherwise one side has most of his points wrapped up in his huge ship..

Good to know.

Do you need an epic ship to fight an epic ship?
No, you can do just fine with regular ships. I think your list is fine. The main thing you would want to avoid is using the Z-95's to shoot the epic ship if he's performing the Reinforce action.

Yeah, I did notice that their damage was pretty much worthless against him. if I were to do the same list again, I think I might just use them as a distraction for the decimator and use the big ships to try and flank and get behind it. Sadly he didn't show up this week to give me a chance to try out any new tactics.

 Amanax wrote:
[
ehhh, I don't see this one. other than getting behind it, there isn't a whole lot I can see to be done to "dictate" the fight. If I fight at range, he clearly has the advantage. Range 2 is by far the worst, as you have mentioned, and range 1 I have to pray I predicted his movement correctly or else my ships just vanish with only the hope of doing 1 or 2 attacks back depending on the size of what he just rammed. .

Playing with only 200pts is part of the problem - since the Raider is 3/4 of his list, anything you have that isn't good at killing the Raider is much less efficient.

Throw HLC on your IG-88's so you always have 4 shots. Also run B and C evasion plus re-rolls = better results.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 statu wrote:
If you can, get behind it, and stay there. The Raider has a blind spot at its back, where you can sit and shoot it, without any chance of being shot yourself

Indeed.

I had an A-wing get behind my Raider and just completely wreck it with a Proton Rocket.

This only works for targeting the Aft section. If you are directly behind the Raider, you will not be able to target the Fore section (which is by far the tougher section). Remember, with huge ships, you have to draw a line from your base post to the section you are targeting base post, and if you cross the blue line in the middle, you can't target that section. Now knocking out the Aft section will certainly cripple the Raider as its only generating small amounts of energy and it loses its broadsides, but to target the Fore section, you really have to get beside it near the middle to be able to draw your line of sight. You can still stay out of its firing arc if you position yourself well, but its much tougher to knock the Fore out because that's where the Reinforce and Shield Recovery actions are (unlike the Tantive).

In our 300 point game over the weekend, we specifically targeted the supporting ships first (he had a Punisher, Phantom, 1 stock TIE and 2 TIE/FOs). This strategy worked well because we still had a YV-666, Firespray, Khihraxx figher, HWK-290, and 3 Z-95s left to deal with the Raider. While we quickly took out the Aft section, we could not manage to do much to the Fore section. However, all the Raider was able to do was move 1 straight or 2 bank, and either recover shields or reinforce. Thanks to the reinforce action, we had a really hard time hurting it, taking it down to 0 shields just once only to have it recover 4 the next turn. The Z-95s couldn't land enough hits, and the YV-666 was reduced to another Z-95 before the Aft section went up. We basically just played chase the Raider for 5 turns, only for the Raider to accidentally move off the board (his back section was outside the play area after a 2 bank).

Of course, this game was the primary reason I'm not a fan of Epic games. They take too dang long, and it usually just ends up being a "chase the huge ship as it bleeds out" game for to many turns.

If that's the case, then I would suggest doing something other than just "line up and see who runs out of ships first". I don't know what the scenario(s) included on the Raider's rules booklet are like, but if they're no good you can always make something up.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 statu wrote:
If you can, get behind it, and stay there. The Raider has a blind spot at its back, where you can sit and shoot it, without any chance of being shot yourself

Indeed.

I had an A-wing get behind my Raider and just completely wreck it with a Proton Rocket.

This only works for targeting the Aft section. If you are directly behind the Raider, you will not be able to target the Fore section (which is by far the tougher section). Remember, with huge ships, you have to draw a line from your base post to the section you are targeting base post, and if you cross the blue line in the middle, you can't target that section. Now knocking out the Aft section will certainly cripple the Raider as its only generating small amounts of energy and it loses its broadsides, but to target the Fore section, you really have to get beside it near the middle to be able to draw your line of sight. You can still stay out of its firing arc if you position yourself well, but its much tougher to knock the Fore out because that's where the Reinforce and Shield Recovery actions are (unlike the Tantive).

In our 300 point game over the weekend, we specifically targeted the supporting ships first (he had a Punisher, Phantom, 1 stock TIE and 2 TIE/FOs). This strategy worked well because we still had a YV-666, Firespray, Khihraxx figher, HWK-290, and 3 Z-95s left to deal with the Raider. While we quickly took out the Aft section, we could not manage to do much to the Fore section. However, all the Raider was able to do was move 1 straight or 2 bank, and either recover shields or reinforce. Thanks to the reinforce action, we had a really hard time hurting it, taking it down to 0 shields just once only to have it recover 4 the next turn. The Z-95s couldn't land enough hits, and the YV-666 was reduced to another Z-95 before the Aft section went up. We basically just played chase the Raider for 5 turns, only for the Raider to accidentally move off the board (his back section was outside the play area after a 2 bank).

Of course, this game was the primary reason I'm not a fan of Epic games. They take too dang long, and it usually just ends up being a "chase the huge ship as it bleeds out" game for to many turns.

Out of interest how was he getting 4 shields back? Once the back is crippled then the maximum energy it can generate a turn is one

That's a good point.

If the aft is crippled, it can only store one energy token. If it had all six when crippled, you loose five of them. I'm pretty sure that once you allocate energy tokens to an upgrade card, they have to stay there so you wouldn't be able to grab that energy to perform the Recover action.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
That's a good point.

If the aft is crippled, it can only store one energy token. If it had all six when crippled, you loose five of them. I'm pretty sure that once you allocate energy tokens to an upgrade card, they have to stay there so you wouldn't be able to grab that energy to perform the Recover action.

Not entirely sure, he was generating about 3-4 energy per turn after we crippled the Aft section. My knowledge about huge ship rules is limited, so I have no idea what allowed him to generate that much energy with just the Fore section. I did question the logic of being able to still generate that much energy without the main engines though.

I do have a question about target locks on huge ships....do you lock onto the whole ship or just a section? We couldn't find anything specific to this, but it was late and very likely we overlooked it.

The way it works is you gain the energy from the maneuver and place it on your ship card (in this case, the aft). You then allocate where you would like that energy to go (like to your weapons). You then spend that energy (if able). The crippled aft of a Raider can only store one energy token, meaning at maximum you can only have one token per activation to allocate or use to perform the Recover action.

You have to declare which section you intend to target lock.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
The way it works is you gain the energy from the maneuver and place it on your ship card (in this case, the aft). You then allocate where you would like that energy to go (like to your weapons). You then spend that energy (if able). The crippled aft of a Raider can only store one energy token, meaning at maximum you can only have one token per activation to allocate or use to perform the Recover action.

You have to declare which section you intend to target lock.

Okay, so he was spending the energy to recover shields prior to the storing step. Would that not be allowed? I'm guessing its upgrades that actually spend the energy by your description, and that actions are taken AFTER the storing energy step.

So, it may be a little off topic, but I actually just compared the Tantive and the Raider. I'd have to say, unless I'm missing something, the Raider is directly better, for the same cost. Has anyone else noticed this?

Sorry that's a little off topic, but I figured I'd ask.

The Raider does have better base stats, but the CR-90 does have that turret primary (which is a big help).

Isn't the corvette 90 points for front and back, and the raider 100?

 statu wrote:
Isn't the corvette 90 points for front and back, and the raider 100?

Oh, you're right.

Well still. It seems that 10 points gets you quite a bit more with the Raider.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
The way it works is you gain the energy from the maneuver and place it on your ship card (in this case, the aft). You then allocate where you would like that energy to go (like to your weapons). You then spend that energy (if able). The crippled aft of a Raider can only store one energy token, meaning at maximum you can only have one token per activation to allocate or use to perform the Recover action.

You have to declare which section you intend to target lock.

Okay, so he was spending the energy to recover shields prior to the storing step. Would that not be allowed? I'm guessing its upgrades that actually spend the energy by your description, and that actions are taken AFTER the storing energy step.

Yes, you place on your ship card, you allocate energy to upgrade cards if you want, then you spend energy to resolve upgrade card effects (that aren't attacks). Then you perform actions and after that you fire with your primary weapon and any secondary weapons that can.

If the aft section is crippled, you can only store 1 energy per movement, regardless of how much your chosen maneuver generates because the printed energy value is one:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
The way it works is you gain the energy from the maneuver and place it on your ship card (in this case, the aft). You then allocate where you would like that energy to go (like to your weapons). You then spend that energy (if able). The crippled aft of a Raider can only store one energy token, meaning at maximum you can only have one token per activation to allocate or use to perform the Recover action.

You have to declare which section you intend to target lock.

Okay, so he was spending the energy to recover shields prior to the storing step. Would that not be allowed? I'm guessing its upgrades that actually spend the energy by your description, and that actions are taken AFTER the storing energy step.

Yes, you place on your ship card, you allocate energy to upgrade cards if you want, then you spend energy to resolve upgrade card effects (that aren't attacks). Then you perform actions and after that you fire with your primary weapon and any secondary weapons that can.

If the aft section is crippled, you can only store 1 energy per movement, regardless of how much your chosen maneuver generates because the printed energy value is one:

So the Fore section doesn't store energy? That makes a huge difference, as my opponent thought it did. Just so I can explain it, the process goes like this:

1. Move ship, get the # of energy tokens generated by that movement
2. Store the energy to the Aft section
3. Allocate stored energy
4. Spend stored energy
5. Actions

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
So the Fore section doesn't store energy?

Nope. The ship card has no printed Energy limit:



Energy is generated by the aft section and then allocated to weapons and upgrade cards.

That makes a huge difference, as my opponent thought it did.

The rules for how Huge Ships work are included in every Huge Ship expansion and are available on FFG's website in PDF. If your opponent is the one field the large ship, he should really familiarize himself with how they work and make sure he brings the Huge Ship rules with him to help clear up any questions, even if it's just a friendly game (as in this case, his misunderstanding of the rules gave him huge advantage).

Just so I can explain it, the process goes like this:

1. Move ship, get the # of energy tokens generated by that movement
2. Store the energy to the Aft section
3. Allocate stored energy
4. Spend stored energy
5. Actions

Pretty much. This is what it says in the Huge Ship rulebook:

Energy Steps in the Activation Phase

To gain and spend energy, huge ships resolves two additional steps during the Activation phase. These steps occur between the “Clean Up” and “Perform Action” steps, and they occur in the following order:

1. Gain Energy: The huge ship gains a number of energy tokens equal to the number of energy icons shown on the chosen maneuver on the maneuver dial (below the speed number).

2. Allocate Energy: The huge ship’s controlling player may remove energy tokens from his Ship card and place them on any cards with an energy limit that are equipped to this ship. He cannot place energy tokens on a card in excess of its energy limit.

3. Use Energy: The huge ship may use one or more of its Upgrade cards or Damage cards with the “Energy:” header. Each card with this header can be used only once per round.

For the Recover action, it says this:

Recover

Ships with the action icon in their action bar may perform the recover action. To do so, remove all energy tokens from the corresponding Ship card. For each energy token removed, that ship recovers one shield. For ships with multiple Ship cards, for each energy token removed, the ship recovers one shield on either of its section. A huge ship cannot exceed a ship card’s shield value with a recover action

You remove all of the energy stored on the ship card (in this case, the aft section) and recover that amount of shields on either section (if your ship has two sections). If your aft section is crippled, you can only store one energy token on it. So when you perform the Recover action, you can only recover one shield on the fore section.