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Grav is a poorly thought mechanic design-wise.

When you pay premium for defenses, its completely acceptable that a payment to bypass them by the opponent is made, like in the case of plasma.

But grav? it outright punishes you for improving saves, while ignoring ANY level of AV or toughness, rending all the basic defense forms completely meaningless, leaving you with easily bypassed cover and the invuls who are rare and expensive as your only hopes.

And if you think to solve it by having high number of low vaue targets, it still won't help much as grav enjoys enough of a RoF to still help against horde type enemies.
And to top it off, the platform that is best deploying grav, has a backup weapon who is basically pure anti-horde, making the grav cents quite good at killing 95% of the things in the game (anything but demons and necron wraiths basically)

Grav has no real weaknesses or downsides, no real answers and no real and available counters. it even punishes you for deploying stronger units. its simply flawed design.

The game has been punishing stronger units for some time. Except for the chosen few, which resist even grav.

There's plenty of strong, resilient units that work to great effect. The key is typically that they usually have more than one type of save, or often potentially all three types of save and another mechanism like FNP or RP on top to boot.

What you see having a problem is generally anything reliant on one type of save or just raw T/AV. With vehicles, most of them are relatively easy to kill, especially with things like Grav, Gauss, Haywire, etc not caring about AV and vehicles not generally getting saves. The vehicles you do see usually causing people problems are things that have or can get saves (Skimmers, Knights, etc). Likewise, infantry with 2+ saves doesn't bother a lot of people, but when it's a 2+ with a 3++ and FNP on a T5 bike to boot, or a Rriptide with its 2+/5++ potential 3++ with 5 wounds andnd FNP, that becomes another story entirely.

"There's plenty of strong, resilient units that work to great effect. "

I wouldn't say plenty. There's the chosen few, and then there's the entirety of C:BA and C:Orks.

Martel732 wrote:
"There's plenty of strong, resilient units that work to great effect. "

I wouldn't say plenty. There's the chosen few, and then there's the entirety of C:BA and C:Orks.

Dark Eldar would like to have a word with you about durability. The only durable things in the codex (Talos/Cronos, Grotesques) also happen to be the slowest in a codex designed for rapid mobility.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"There's plenty of strong, resilient units that work to great effect. "

I wouldn't say plenty. There's the chosen few, and then there's the entirety of C:BA and C:Orks.

Dark Eldar would like to have a word with you about durability. The only durable things in the codex (Talos/Cronos, Grotesques) also happen to be the slowest in a codex designed for rapid mobility.

Okay we're all in the same batch of crap ass codices. Go figure. Is BA vs DE even a good match anymore? Or is it stupid like BA vs C:CWE?

Martel732 wrote:
"There's plenty of strong, resilient units that work to great effect. "

I wouldn't say plenty. There's the chosen few, and then there's the entirety of C:BA and C:Orks.

I didn't say they were evenly spread, it's not like IG or CSM really have any super durable units either, but they're certainly possible with lots of armies. BA doesn't have any super absurdly resilient units, but when taken as allies often form a key component of things like SW TWC deathstars and the like.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"There's plenty of strong, resilient units that work to great effect. "

I wouldn't say plenty. There's the chosen few, and then there's the entirety of C:BA and C:Orks.

I didn't say they were evenly spread, it's not like IG or CSM really have any super durable units either, but they're certainly possible with lots of armies. BA doesn't have any super absurdly resilient units, but when taken as allies often form a key component of things like SW TWC deathstars and the like.

Damn moochers!

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Imho grav isn't too powerful alot of the time vs marines for example it's actually worse than plasma as your wounding on a 3+ rather than a 2+

3 shots wounding on 3+ is way better then 2 shots wounding on 2+ that also has a chance of hurting yourself

 BoomWolf wrote:
Grav is a poorly thought mechanic design-wise.

When you pay premium for defenses, its completely acceptable that a payment to bypass them by the opponent is made, like in the case of plasma.

But grav? it outright punishes you for improving saves, while ignoring ANY level of AV or toughness, rending all the basic defense forms completely meaningless, leaving you with easily bypassed cover and the invuls who are rare and expensive as your only hopes.

And if you think to solve it by having high number of low vaue targets, it still won't help much as grav enjoys enough of a RoF to still help against horde type enemies.
And to top it off, the platform that is best deploying grav, has a backup weapon who is basically pure anti-horde, making the grav cents quite good at killing 95% of the things in the game (anything but demons and necron wraiths basically)

Grav has no real weaknesses or downsides, no real answers and no real and available counters. it even punishes you for deploying stronger units. its simply flawed design.

Plasma is only really risky if you have worse than a 3+ armour save. You have a 1/18 or 5.5% chance of a space Marine dying to a Gets Hot from a plasmagun. Grav is also more expensive than melta, which is good against everything at no downside.

Unless you spam them, regular grav guns are not the problem. It's grav cannons that have the ridiculous firepower. Grav Centurions make ridiculously good platforms for them. I think that the grav cannon needs a reduced maximum fire rate, and grav amps should only let you get re-rolls against bulky or heavier units and MCs. In an ideal world, vehicles shouldn't be affected by grav at all.

Melta is basically useless against MCs, though.

Except it ignores their save and wounds most on a 2+.

Grav hasn't done what it and strength D were supposed to do, which is make people look at weaker troops as a viable option. If they hadn't increased the amount of str6 shooting at the same time maybe...

My houserule makes salvo fire at half distance if you move, even if you are relentless or a vehicle. Shuts down the amount of threat area those units normally pack.

The fact that grav is NECESSARY is what is killing the game. Grav itself is a symptom of the power creep.

Ok.

Play a game against marines with MCs or Decurion, and have the SM player ditch the grav. Then play a game with MCs &/or decurion and the SM player with grav. As close to the same lists as possibe. Dont change the terrain. I dare ya.

Dont worry, the first game wont go past turn 3.

 Red Marine wrote:
Ok.

Play a game against marines with MCs or Decurion, and have the SM player ditch the grav. Then play a game with MCs &/or decurion and the SM player with grav. As close to the same lists as possibe. Dont change the terrain. I dare ya.

Dont worry, the first game wont go past turn 3.

Well maybe if you play vs tyranids but versus others factions you wont face so much MCs... Lets say its all about the ratio ? Too much grav guns centurions is broken and 0 grav gun is a worthless list?

Who bitches about grav? I roll a minimum of 80 Cultists every game!

Oddly enough Grav is one of the few weapons I dont mind facing too much as my Infantry have only 5+ saves and I equip my tanks with camo gear and always endeavour to place them hull down to really boost that cover save, which when combined with a flavour of bubblewrap makes Grav a waste of points against me.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Except it ignores their save and wounds most on a 2+.

Grav hasn't done what it and strength D were supposed to do, which is make people look at weaker troops as a viable option. If they hadn't increased the amount of str6 shooting at the same time maybe...

My houserule makes salvo fire at half distance if you move, even if you are relentless or a vehicle. Shuts down the amount of threat area those units normally pack.

Irrelevant. Not a enough shots to matter. You will be assaulted by said MC that ignores your armor and squashed like a bug. I would insist on playing by the text rule in your meta, unless you are also banning WK, Riptides, and DK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alex0911 wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
Ok.

Play a game against marines with MCs or Decurion, and have the SM player ditch the grav. Then play a game with MCs &/or decurion and the SM player with grav. As close to the same lists as possibe. Dont change the terrain. I dare ya.

Dont worry, the first game wont go past turn 3.

Well maybe if you play vs tyranids but versus others factions you wont face so much MCs... Lets say its all about the ratio ? Too much grav guns centurions is broken and 0 grav gun is a worthless list?

Riptides, DKs, and WKs say "HI!"

Martel732 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And for the above poster, a WK or Riptide will mess up your CSM a lot faster than some BA on bikes with grav guns.

This thread is not about WKs or Riptides though.

In my mind the two cant be talked about separately.

If you want, we can start a thread about all those top-tier armies with magnificent toys against whom the low-tier armies have no counter nor response.

Saying grav was added to the game and as such is absolutely needed to deal with MCs makes as much sense as saying that Warp Talons were added to the game to deal with... dunno, something.

There's a problem with overpowered MCs? Yes. Is grav the solution? No. Because it also kills virtually everything else without breaking a sweat, at pretty decent range and with no drawbacks. Also, only Spesss Mehreeens have access to grav weapons. I think that's something worth of pointing out, since some SM players seem to believe they're the only ones having trouble with overpowered MCs out there, thus they're entitled to get grav while everyone else gets nothing.

 Korinov wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And for the above poster, a WK or Riptide will mess up your CSM a lot faster than some BA on bikes with grav guns.

This thread is not about WKs or Riptides though.

In my mind the two cant be talked about separately.

If you want, we can start a thread about all those top-tier armies with magnificent toys against whom the low-tier armies have no counter nor response.

Saying grav was added to the game and as such is absolutely needed to deal with MCs makes as much sense as saying that Warp Talons were added to the game to deal with... dunno, something.

There's a problem with overpowered MCs? Yes. Is grav the solution? No. Because it also kills virtually everything else without breaking a sweat, at pretty decent range and with no drawbacks. Also, only Spesss Mehreeens have access to grav weapons. I think that's something worth of pointing out, since some SM players seem to believe they're the only ones having trouble with overpowered MCs out there, thus they're entitled to get grav while everyone else gets nothing.

Be fair - Space Marine players have trouble with anything that requires more from their brains than applying brute force. To even consider that they may have to use 'tactics'.... Those are for the lowly non Space Marine peasants!

 Crimson Devil wrote:
The problem is Salvo, drop that and Grav is fine.

Pretty much this. Though I could see the Gravgun being Rapid Fire and the Grav Cannon being 2/3 Salvo. Increase their range to bolted range and we are good.

Wasn't Grav exclusively available on Bikes and Centurions though?

Stands to reason they made Grav as good as it is to sell those kits. Same with the new Devastator kits. Sorta like the new Windriders. New kit needs selling, so make it as good as possible.

I'm pretty sure the game designers know what they are doing, which is to please shareholders.

You can't really talk about Grav without talking about WK and Riptide since IoM doesn't have many options for dealing with those units at range.

It's like trying to discuss lascannons without ever bringing up the concept of vehicles, because then you just discuss how plasma does a much better job and is more available.

Honestly I don't mind each faction getting unique weapons. As someone pointed out, it would actually be a great weapon for them since it's so versatile but could be toned down a lot.

That being said, it would be better for more factions to get access to weaponry able to deal the variety of major threats in the meta. But that is a level of balance that clearly is not in the company's plans.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
You can't really talk about Grav without talking about WK and Riptide since Space Marines doesn't have many options for dealing with those units at range.

Fixed that for you.
Once again you are forgetting that not every Imperial player runs Space Marines. Many of us run Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle or the like. We dont get access to Grav and we do not have any crazy strong counterpart to deal with it. We just have to suck it up and try our best whilst ignoring the almost facist sneers of the Space Marine players and the 'Well you should have brought Marines and/or allies then' comments.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Grav is a poorly thought mechanic design-wise.

When you pay premium for defenses, its completely acceptable that a payment to bypass them by the opponent is made, like in the case of plasma.

But grav? it outright punishes you for improving saves, while ignoring ANY level of AV or toughness, rending all the basic defense forms completely meaningless, leaving you with easily bypassed cover and the invuls who are rare and expensive as your only hopes.

And if you think to solve it by having high number of low vaue targets, it still won't help much as grav enjoys enough of a RoF to still help against horde type enemies.
And to top it off, the platform that is best deploying grav, has a backup weapon who is basically pure anti-horde, making the grav cents quite good at killing 95% of the things in the game (anything but demons and necron wraiths basically)

Grav has no real weaknesses or downsides, no real answers and no real and available counters. it even punishes you for deploying stronger units. its simply flawed design.

Plasma is only really risky if you have worse than a 3+ armour save. You have a 1/18 or 5.5% chance of a space Marine dying to a Gets Hot from a plasmagun. Grav is also more expensive than melta, which is good against everything at no downside.

Unless you spam them, regular grav guns are not the problem. It's grav cannons that have the ridiculous firepower. Grav Centurions make ridiculously good platforms for them. I think that the grav cannon needs a reduced maximum fire rate, and grav amps should only let you get re-rolls against bulky or heavier units and MCs. In an ideal world, vehicles shouldn't be affected by grav at all.

Plasma paying alot to bypass armor was looked at point value, not only risk. compared to a bolter is not much better to shoot at hordy units, who are likely to use cover over armor anyway. it does more, but at a higher pricetag and with a little risk attached.
Grav on the other hand, does FAR more than plasma as it doesn't simply gets better against AV or high T, it completly overwrites them, making even the highest value irrelevant.
As for melta, it pays in lack of range and the fact its overwhelmingly horrible against horde or even light infantry by complete and utter lack of shots.

As for the ideal world, its not how grav currently works. the CURRENT design is bad. the mere fact that you paying points to boost your defenses only makes you weaker against grav rather than the "aint gonna help" that plasma does is bad design as its infuriating that you practically paid points to make yourself weaker, and the fact grav cannons exist-makes them the staple of what IS grav. nobody cares about the pistol, its hardly a relevant gun. nobody cares about the rifle in a Tac squad, or even the cannon in a regular dev squad. we care about grav bikers and gravcents/relentless gravdevs. because they are the units who are braking the mechanic.
In every game mechanic, the most important point are the extremes, and the extemes in grav are showing just how unstable the mechanic is. it needs to change in itself, not just the weapon's RoF.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Wasn't Grav exclusively available on Bikes and Centurions though?

Stands to reason they made Grav as good as it is to sell those kits. Same with the new Devastator kits. Sorta like the new Windriders. New kit needs selling, so make it as good as possible.

I'm pretty sure the game designers know what they are doing, which is to please shareholders.

No they don't

Look at most of their new kits. Yes some of them were really good (like the riptide, or the wraithknight) but a lot of their new kits are awful. And I don't mean not good, I mean completely unplayable on release

- Dark Talon
- Dark Shroud
- Tzeentch Chariot (literally didn't even function)
- Forgefiends
- Mutilators
- Voidraven Bomber
-Toxicrene
- Exocrine
- Orkanaughts
- Miltus Tempestus
- Harelequin Skyweavers

These kits were all completely brand new yet were insufferably bad. It's clear from the evidence that all the broken units they make are on accident.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

And none of those are Space Marine units..... Well, GW bias Marine confirmed.

 master of ordinance wrote:
And none of those are Space Marine units..... Well, GW bias Marine confirmed.

Stalker/Hunter was pretty bad

 CrownAxe wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
And none of those are Space Marine units..... Well, GW bias Marine confirmed.

Stalker/Hunter was pretty bad

Hydra. Nerfed to open topped, has no special rules, less than stellar guns and no interceptor. And got no points reduction.

Not grav, grav cannons.

More shots than heavy bolter, kills high AP dudes better than plasma, doesn't overheat, re-rolls to wound, abundant "relentless" platforms such as magically super accurate bikers, kills MC better than missile launchers and gak

Yeah, crap balance even by GW standards.