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Hi all,

I appreciate that this is a long and well-trodden topic. I would like to present my own ideas for how I would like the Codex to be executed, and leave it to the community to see if any of my ideas have merit.
I should mention that I see this as a total overhaul of the entire faction and that the current Codex is simply too mired in past ideas; I believe that Chaos Marines need to be restructured almost from the ground up. Therefore please do not take any unspecified rules into account when judging the rules. It is entirely likely that the current rules execution of Marks and points costs will be reworked. I am looking more for criticism of the concept rather than presenting a watertight final product.
I also recognise that this is very much not the direction that 7th Edition appears to be heading in, in that it is based on conversions and not formations. It's a thought exercise more than anything.


Army Special Rules:
- The Long War: All models from the Chaos Space Marine faction Hate all models from the Imperium faction. All models from the Imperium faction Hate all models from the Chaos Space Marine faction.
- Renegades and Heretics: Chaos Marine units are identified as either Renegades or Heretics . Renegades represent newer turncoats and Bile’s monsters. Heretics represent the old Legions and ancient Cults. Some wargear is restricted depending on whether the purchasing model is a Renegade or a Heretic. If a Renegade model is upgraded with a purchased Legacy, they lose their Renegade status and become Heretics.
- Icons of Chaos: Units that purchased an Icon of Chaos are Stubborn. This benefit remains even if the bearer is killed during the battle. Friendly Daemonic units will not scatter when attempting to Deep Strike within 6” of a model carrying an Icon of Chaos. Note that Icons are not necessarily God-Dependant anymore.
- Champions of Chaos: (Similar to now, but optional. I'd implement some degree of scaling to the opponent; killing a Warlord is worth more than a Sergeant.)


Chaos Space Marine Squad- 75pts

Chaos Marine WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv3+
Aspiring Champion WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+
Exalted Champion WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+

Unit Type: Infantry, Character (Aspiring Champion and Exalted Champion only)
Squad Size: 4 Chaos Marines and an Aspiring Champion
Special Rules: Renegade, Fearless (Exalted Champion only)

Options:
The Aspiring Champion may be upgraded to an Exalted Champion for +15pts.
One model in the squad may be upgraded to carry an Icon for +10pts.
The squad may be upgraded with a single Mark for +Xpts, paid once by the entire squad.
The squad may be upgraded with a single Legacy for +Xpts, paid per model.

The Champion may choose from the Melee Weapons and/or Special Issue wargear lists. Exalted Champions may further choose from the Daemonic Gifts wargear list.
One model may choose from the Special Weapons wargear list. One model may also choose from the Melee Weapons wargear list.

May include up to 5 more Chaos Space Marines for +12pts each.
- If the squad numbers at least 10 models, an additional model may choose from the Melee Weapons, Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons wargear lists.

If the squad has been increased to 10 models, a further 5 Chaos Marines may be added for +10pts each.
- If the squad numbers at least 15 models, an additional model may choose from the Melee Weapons, Special Weapons, Heavy Weapons or Daemonic Gift wargear lists.

If the squad has been increased to 15 models, a further 5 Chaos Marines may be added for +7pts each to a maximum squad size of 20.
- If the squad numbers 20 models, an additional model may choose from the Melee Weapons or Daemonic Gift wargear lists.



General Wargear options
Items marked with a * are restricted to Heretics only.

Melee Weapons Wargear list
- Chainaxe
- Heavy Chainsword
- Plague Knife
- Power Weapon
- Lightning Claw
- Power Fist
- Chainglaive*
- Chainfist*
- Tainted Weapon*

Special Weapons Wargear list
- Flamer
- Meltagun
- Plasma Gun
- Combi-Weapon
- Al-Chem Flamer*
- Ectoplasma Gun*
- Phosphex Bomb*
- Rad Grenade Launcher*
- Daemon-Eye Bolter*

Heavy Weapons Wargear list
- Heavy Bolter
- Heavy Flamer
- Missile Launcher
- Missile Launcher with Flakk Missiles
- Lascannon
- Autocannon*
- Missile Launcher with Al-Chem Rockets*

Daemonic Gifts
- (See Chaos 3.5 for essentially identical execution.)

Marks of Chaos
If a model bears a Mark of Chaos, they are limited to the Legacies belonging to their respective God or to the Undivided Legacies.
- Mark of Khorne
- Mark of Nurgle
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Mark of Slaanesh

Legacies of Chaos
- Legacy of the Warmaster
- Legacy of the Red Angel
- Legacy of the Reaper
- Legacy of the Cyclops
- Legacy of the Phoenician
- Legacy of Nostramo
- Legacy of Olympia
- Legacy of Monarchia
- Legacy of the Cabal



That about covers it, well done for making it this far. While this only considers the basic Troops choice, in theory this method would be applied for every unit in the Codex. Because so much text here is for generic or army-wide applications, the actual space needed per-unit should be much smaller. Basically the yellow text is the only bit that's limited to the Troops unit.
As for some theory behind it;

- Marks are largely the same as they are now. Possibly make them closer to the Cult units in terms of Fearlessness but largely as they are. I'd probably change Nurgle to FNP rather than +1T but that's just me.
- Legacies are more complex rules so think like Forge World's Legiones Astartes rule; For example, Nostramo would include Night Vision, some form of Stealth, and murdery stabbiness. Cabal might include Outflanking, Move Through Cover and Precision Shots.
- Units get cheaper as they increase in size. The game is currently built around min-maxing to spam special weapons IMO where the bodies holding them are less relevant. This is to encourage bigger squads and more meat, diluting the amount of special weapons but actually providing good-value bodies.
- Marks are applied per-unit and thus are more applicable for bigger squads. I figured they represent the more zealous side of Chaos and want to be fielded in unwashed masses.
- Legacies are applied per-model. The opposite applies, these are going to be the rarer veterans and applying them across a horde will get expensive, fast.
- Legacies are named for geneseed, not the Legion. It's so that they are open-ended and can be applied to Warbands without necessitating a 10,000 year old veteran.

I've written quite a lot here, please post your thoughts and I'll stop rambling.

I'd be interested to see where this goes.

RE: Champion of Chaos, roll for each wound on the dead challengees original profile?

I like it. Exalted Champions would make good mini-chaos lords, cool idea for a Warband on the move constantly absorbing new marines to their ranks while also taking casualties. Can get a little narrative with the leadership of the warband, but 15pts for WS5 is a bit underwhelming. Id say tack on an extra attack, Ld, or some Special Rule than benefits him and/or his unit. Maybe having an Exalted Champion unlocks the use of legacies? Legacies do make the unit better (and older) so having a more decorated Champion would make sense.

I agree about the special weapon spam, and as someone who wants to run big twenty man units of chaos, I like the idea of the price cuts dropping to 7 may be a bit too much though.

Current Cost for 20 CSM: 300
Proposed Cost: 220

What about cult troops? Making the marks more like the Cult version gets rid of the Snowflake. I think applying legacies to cult troops might be a better move, keep the marks mostly the same, especially if they became a flat cost.

SirSweetroll wrote:
I like it. Exalted Champions would make good mini-chaos lords, cool idea for a Warband on the move constantly absorbing new marines to their ranks while also taking casualties. Can get a little narrative with the leadership of the warband, but 15pts for WS5 is a bit underwhelming. Id say tack on an extra attack, Ld, or some Special Rule than benefits him and/or his unit. Maybe having an Exalted Champion unlocks the use of legacies? Legacies do make the unit better (and older) so having a more decorated Champion would make sense.

I agree about the special weapon spam, and as someone who wants to run big twenty man units of chaos, I like the idea of the price cuts dropping to 7 may be a bit too much though.

Current Cost for 20 CSM: 300
Proposed Cost: 220

What about cult troops? Making the marks more like the Cult version gets rid of the Snowflake. I think applying legacies to cult troops might be a better move, keep the marks mostly the same, especially if they became a flat cost.

Many thanks for the criticism. As best as I can answer you:
- The Exalted Champion has 2 Wounds and is Fearless. I thought that 15pts was actually on the generous side personally. Might also have an option for Terminator Armour but that might go too far.
- The points cost is entirely deliberate simply because I don't think a full squad is worth anything close to 300pts. If 20-man squads is supposed to be the CSM 'thing' then it should be a desirable way to play the army. And while it looks scary, that's only 20 Marines; 20 Bolters, no special kit or special rules. It's still one decent charge from getting swept.
For reference, a 30k squad is 250pts but also has the ability to double-tap their Bolters and the Legiones Astartes rule built-in, and even then they are rarely run at this size unless you also get the Apothecary, Chaplain, Artificers etc. involved.
- Frankly I was just going to remove Cult Troops because if this system is versatile enough to represent Cult Raptors, Terminators and Havocs, then by definition it should be capable of dealing with the regulars.
Say by combining the Legacy and Mark you end up with Hatred, Rage, Fearless and Furious Charge in whatever combination- This is a Berzerker, regardless of his armour or wargear. Similarly if you end up with FNP, Poison, Defensive Grenades and Shrouded, you're going to be Cult of Nurgle.

It's certainly an option to consider, and it might remove potential weirdness like Berzerkers carrying heavy weapons. But then again I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing for the game.
I dunno. That's my thought process, but if it could be improved I'm certainly open to changing things.


EDIT: In lieu of Formations, you could also offer some army-wide benefits to benefit fluffiness and paying out for Legacies even when they might not be tactically sound. For example, if every model in your army bears:
Legacy of the Red Angel / Reaper / Cyclops / Phoenician- All Marked Champions are upgraded to Exalted for free and Marked units receive a free Icon of Chaos.
Legacy of Nostramo- The game automatically starts under Night Fighting, Fear tests taken at night suffer a -1 penalty.
etc.

I see no sonic weaponry! D:

Though I, in a way, like the idea of dropping 'cult' units and allowing you to represent them using whats in the book by customizing them as such. Might be cleaner overall and cheaper (money wise) to do it this way rather than having to buy expensive new kits for unique units. And with four Gods to represent, that gets messy as heck too.

In the end, I'd like there to be enough wargear/rules to properly represent each God as well.

My biggest idea is that Marks should not be a global effect for all units. For example, Mark of Slaanesh is a pretty weak mark as it stands, because many units can't actually benefit from it. If I want to play Slaanesh, and play it 'proper' by giving everything the mark, my shooty units don't actually WANT that mark, because it's USELESS to them.

Same could be said for a shooty unit getting Mark of Khorn. Those perks are useless.

The marks need to be different effects depending on the unit, which requires a buttload of thought to pull off. Thought GW clearly didn't have.

Just make ultra cheap marines without the fancy gear loyalist get abundance of.

Allow 2 kinds of marines. Classic and the depraved. The Depraved are under supplied. Reduce their war gear to reduce points cost.
Make pauldronless armor like scout armor 4+. Take away grenades to lower base cost but make them purchas able for people who still want them. Take away pistol but make them purchasable.