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Recently I've had some (limeted) success running a pair of allied DE Succubus with webway portals to accurately deepstrike a unit of both fire dragons or d-sythe toting wraith guard.

However I'm beginning to think the tax for doing so, both the required troops and the succubus never really achieve much other than getting things were they need to be may be a bit too costly.

Any one else have any experience or tactics when running a similar set up? I could almost squeeze another two wave serpents into the list if I dropped the deep strike so is it worth it?

Thoughts?

I run Deep Strike lists with Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins all the time to outrageous success. I highly recommend it.

In fact, Fire Dragons portaling in while embarked in a Raider is my favorite way to destroy Imperial Knights, since you can negate the advantage of their shield.

What bonus do you see to running the raider instead of just dropping them on foot? I have a raider I could use, just didn't really see the utility. Always had them pegged as a suicide unit albeit a costly one.

Also if you don't mind me asking what else do you use with this list?

Thanks

The length of the Raider allows it to be lain across two armor arcs. Since all of them can fire from any point on the Raider, you declare your target, at which point the Knight must declare which arc his shield covers. Then you fire all your fusion blasters from the other end.

Over running them on foot, the Raider provides an AV 10 shield against enemy fire. It also provides some extra mobility, for a unit with a fairly short range gun. Finally, it provides them with a 3+ cover save (assuming you take Night Shields, which you should). Of course, the guns a Raider brings are nice as well.

I run Freakshow lists almost exclusively if I bring Eldar. Here's a link. Part 4 contains some sample army lists for how I do things.

The Dragons are a great addition for Dark Eldar, since the True Kin lack good anti-vehicle punch. The superior transport capacity of the Dark Eldar benefits the Craftworlders in return.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The length of the Raider allows it to be lain across two armor arcs. Since all of them can fire from any point on the Raider, you declare your target, at which point the Knight must declare which arc his shield covers. Then you fire all your fusion blasters from the other end.

Over running them on foot, the Raider provides an AV 10 shield against enemy fire. It also provides some extra mobility, for a unit with a fairly short range gun. Finally, it provides them with a 3+ cover save (assuming you take Night Shields, which you should). Of course, the guns a Raider brings are nice as well.

I run Freakshow lists almost exclusively if I bring Eldar. Here's a link. Part 4 contains some sample army lists for how I do things.

The Dragons are a great addition for Dark Eldar, since the True Kin lack good anti-vehicle punch. The superior transport capacity of the Dark Eldar benefits the Craftworlders in return.

That's brilliant. Not sure how that would fly against my friend though How do you run the Fire Dragons normally? I assume CAD for Farseer/psychic shenanigans to supplement DE?

I also assume a WWP to ensure no scatter?

Wwp does not confer the no scatter to the raider. Wwp gives DS to the wielded and any unit he joins, as well as any transport he's embarked on. In a separate line IT then says that the wielded and any unit he's with will not scatter when deep striking. They left out the transport for the second part.

If I place down my raider full of grots and a haemonculus with wwp and you tell me to roll for scatter, I'll pick them back up and leave.

Webway portal : If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

I was planning to use this myself for deep striking wave serpents with Wraithguard so that the wraiths could get out and spread out afterwords when I noticed this. It is a distinct separation in the ability.

I have been considering an Eldar list that uses a double Aspect Host including two min-size squads of Warp Spiders and a unit of Swooping Hawks with an Autarch. Turn 2, everything in reserves comes in on a 2+ or stays behind if I roll under a 4+. Should be a great way to get around the board and put down shots where I need them.

As stated. I still do this as do many other dark eldar players. Play it and interperit it how you will.

No TO interprets it that way, no one plays it that way.

No TO allows no scatter deepstriking?

Not with the transport. The character with the wwp and any unit he joins can deep strike with no scatter as long as they're not in a transport. Once you put them into a vehicle you need to roll scatter. Raiders can already DS, so there's no point in the wwp if that's your plan, but it can still be useful for allied eldar for wave serpents.

It's actually slopping rules writing.

Because techinically you're right if you follow pg 108 (what you posted above).

But if you look at the reference, pg112 it says:

'If in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has Deep Strike, and will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve'.

Which quite clearly includes the model a WWP user is embarked on.

 Frozocrone wrote:
It's actually slopping rules writing.

Because techinically you're right if you follow pg 108 (what you posted above).

But if you look at the reference, pg112 it says:

'If in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has Deep Strike, and will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve'.

Which quite clearly includes the model a WWP user is embarked on.

Which is how I play it and a to has never.. ever.. said differently..

I honestly had never seen the reference section. When I had planned to use it myself I looked through a friends codex to plan how best to use it. That does muddy the issue some. The problem is that several codexs have issues in their reference section, so without an faq stating otherwise I will err on the main entry. I would like to see a ruling on it now that I know of this.

Well ask a TO. I'm telling you, at plenty of big names tournies it is ran the way of no scatter. But I see you're stuck on not allowing it, so it's a mute arguement. Even with proof, you don't believe

The RAI is clear that the vehicle doesn't scatter. Trying to argue otherwise is as silly as trying to argue that Eldar Jetbikes can make their assault move and then launch a charge, too.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The length of the Raider allows it to be lain across two armor arcs. Since all of them can fire from any point on the Raider, you declare your target, at which point the Knight must declare which arc his shield covers. Then you fire all your fusion blasters from the other end.

That is SOOOOOO not how it works.

When the model the unit is firing from (the raider) is split on arc's you use the arc the majority of the model lies in. You don't get to choose after he says where his shield is.

ALso, the raider doesnt really add extra mobility as if you move 12 they still snapshot. The unit can still only move 6 and shoot but while they are embarked they lose battle focus too and cant run and shoot resulting in a net loss of mobility, IMO.

EDIT: Removed my WWP comment since I dont have my codex handy.

effreem wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
The length of the Raider allows it to be lain across two armor arcs. Since all of them can fire from any point on the Raider, you declare your target, at which point the Knight must declare which arc his shield covers. Then you fire all your fusion blasters from the other end.

That is SOOOOOO not how it works.

When the model the unit is firing from (the raider) is split on arc's you use the arc the majority of the model lies in. You don't get to choose after he says where his shield is.

ALso, the raider doesnt really add extra mobility as if you move 12 they still snapshot. The unit can still only move 6 and shoot but while they are embarked they lose battle focus too and cant run and shoot resulting in a net loss of mobility, IMO.

EDIT: Removed my WWP comment since I dont have my codex handy.

It's exactly how Jimsolo says it works.

Passengers from Open-topped vehicles have line of sight, range and can fire from any part of the hull of the vehicle.

So you wait for the Knight to declare where it's shield is at the start of the shooting phase as per rules, then you can select which part of the hull you wish to fire from, ideally the part that avoids the shields.

effreem wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
The length of the Raider allows it to be lain across two armor arcs. Since all of them can fire from any point on the Raider, you declare your target, at which point the Knight must declare which arc his shield covers. Then you fire all your fusion blasters from the other end.

That is SOOOOOO not how it works.

When the model the unit is firing from (the raider) is split on arc's you use the arc the majority of the model lies in. You don't get to choose after he says where his shield is.

ALso, the raider doesnt really add extra mobility as if you move 12 they still snapshot. The unit can still only move 6 and shoot but while they are embarked they lose battle focus too and cant run and shoot resulting in a net loss of mobility, IMO.

EDIT: Removed my WWP comment since I dont have my codex handy.

A) I'm afraid that's exactly how passengers in an OT vehicle work.

B) as to mobility, the length of the Raider gives them some wiggle room even if your group doesn't allow turning for distance. Furthermore, the vehicle can still move 6, allow the Dragons to disembark 6, then still Run and shoot with Battle Focus. So yes, it does enhance their mobility. It also lets them move up to 30" if they need to dramatically reposition, something they absolutely cannot do on foot.

I'm going to reread the sections on the open topped vehicles and shooting and the section on choosing which facing an enemy is shooting but im still 100% sure this isnt how it works.

Vehicle facing is chosen based on where the majority of the shooting model is. As the vehicle is the shooting model (not a part of the vehicle) it would be determined by where the majority of the raider is. But I want to go reread that tonight to get quotes (or unlikely prove myself wrong.)

effreem wrote:
I'm going to reread the sections on the open topped vehicles and shooting and the section on choosing which facing an enemy is shooting but im still 100% sure this isnt how it works.

Vehicle facing is chosen based on where the majority of the shooting model is. As the vehicle is the shooting model (not a part of the vehicle) it would be determined by where the majority of the raider is. But I want to go reread that tonight to get quotes (or unlikely prove myself wrong.)

The vehicle isn't firing. The embarked models are. Normally this means you fire from a firepoint. But with OT vehicles, the firer chooses where to fire from.

Regarding passengers: You can find it in the section on Open Topped vehicles (in between Chariots and Heavy vehicles) under the subheading Passengers Shooting from Open Topped Transports.

Regarding vehicles: also not quite correct. The facing a firing vehicle is in is not determined by where the majority of it lies, but rather where the shot comes from. For most vehicles, this will be one and the same, but the long skinny profile of a Raider makes it quite possible for the bulk of the skimmer to be in one facing, but the shot to come from a different one.

effreem wrote:
I'm going to reread the sections on the open topped vehicles and shooting and the section on choosing which facing an enemy is shooting but im still 100% sure this isnt how it works.

Vehicle facing is chosen based on where the majority of the shooting model is. As the vehicle is the shooting model (not a part of the vehicle) it would be determined by where the majority of the raider is. But I want to go reread that tonight to get quotes (or unlikely prove myself wrong.)

Percentage-wise, what level of certainty are you now that you've read the Open Topped Vehicles rules? Still 100% sure that Jim Solo and every other experienced DE player is wrong?

effreem wrote:
Vehicle facing is chosen based on where the majority of the shooting model is. As the vehicle is the shooting model (not a part of the vehicle) it would be determined by where the majority of the raider is. But I want to go reread that tonight to get quotes (or unlikely prove myself wrong.)

Vehicles fire from the barrel of the weapon. This is why you're advised to not glue weapons on. If the weapon cannot turn to fire at the target, it cannot fire at that target.
So, this also determines facing. If the turret is towards the back of the shooting vehicle, and it also has a gun on the front, they could easily be hitting different facings.
Passengers fire from fire-points, or anywhere if open-topped.

sweetbacon wrote:

effreem wrote:
I'm going to reread the sections on the open topped vehicles and shooting and the section on choosing which facing an enemy is shooting but im still 100% sure this isnt how it works.

Vehicle facing is chosen based on where the majority of the shooting model is. As the vehicle is the shooting model (not a part of the vehicle) it would be determined by where the majority of the raider is. But I want to go reread that tonight to get quotes (or unlikely prove myself wrong.)

Percentage-wise, what level of certainty are you now that you've read the Open Topped Vehicles rules? Still 100% sure that Jim Solo and every other experienced DE player is wrong?

Yea, I was completely wrong. :(

My bad.

No worries, amigo. It's a little counter intuitive.

Hi guys I just been looking at this tactic for my wraith guard and how do you fit a squad of those and an Archean with wwp in the raider given it only has 10 transport places and wraith guard take up 2 spaces each ?

Also when keeping the list battle forged what do you guys do with the troop tax for taking dark eldar allies do you just keep the small troop squad at the back holding a home objective ?

Thanks

You cannot fit an Archon and Wraithguard in a Raider.

You have 4 options.

1: Wraithguard in an allied Fast Attack slot Raider, no WWP, take your chances with scatter.

2. Wraithguard with a DE HQ with WWP on foot. No scatter DS.

3. Wraithguard with a DE HQ with WWP in a Wave Serpent (greater than 10 transport capacity?). Deploy out on the DS (which is allowed), which won't scatter.

4. Wraithguard with DE HQ in a Tantalus, no scatter with WWP, all the templates can fire from the transport, dramatically increasing the distance you can wound at.