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As you know, Leman Russ totally fethed up Magnus, the Thousand Sons, and Prospero because he refused to believe that Horus had turned traitor and idiotically tried to use Kasper Hawser as a webcam. (Unfortunately he later made no attempt to "skype" Magnus upon reaching Prospero)

After Prospero, Magnus disappeared, the Emperor went back to twiddling his thumbs, and Horus plundered the Auretian Technocracy for ten agonisingly long months.

Istvaan III then happened and of course Russ and the Emperor must have said "Oh feth, Magnus was right!"

I wonder what Leman Russ' reaction to this was. I wonder if he would have ever bothered apologizing to Magnus.

Good question, curious as well.

You get a bit of this in the Scars novel. Worth a read.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
You get a bit of this in the Scars novel. Worth a read.

mind spoiling it for me? you can add spoiler tags.

To be honest my memory of it is so poor it wouldn't be worth it.

Not too bothered I would imagine. He was only carrying out the order he was provided with. Horus might have changed the initial one but the Emperor still sent him to Prospero to take Magnus back to Terra. I doubt it would have been a bloodless affair.

I've got Scars but nothing seemed to stand out to me about this.

What I want to know is how does Magnus feel about Horus.

Can i make an informed guess based on Leman Russ' personality.... he was angry and punchy about it

IIRC by the end of Prospero Burns (or was it A Thousand Sons?), Russ comes to the realization that he was tricked into it by Horus, but I might be misremembering/making that up.

Also, IIRC, Russ was never all that happy with having to destroy the Legion and Magnus to begin with, from what I recall he was saddened and upset that it had come to that, but his orders were his orders.

I didn't read the above. My first guess would be "What, and no one called me?"

GAdvance wrote:
Can i make an informed guess based on Leman Russ' personality.... he was angry and punchy about it

Surpurisingly not. More sad and disillusioned. Not apologetic , but definitely not angry.

Russ was pretty disillusioned. He didn't like being a "side-show" to other events. Nor did he believe many would miss them if it had been the Wolves that had been shattered saying "aye, just a few"

From what I remember in Scars, after he's found out about how Horus twisted the order, he does actually feel bad about Prospero. He didn't enjoy destroying the Thousand Sons, and finding out that wasn't his actual order definitely affected him, from what I recall. He's also ashamed that he wasn't at Isstvan (V) and that he was drawn into the wrong fight, but then Bjorn tells him they shouldn't be ashamed.

Actually reading the whole thing, Russ definitely seems more upset about not being at Istvaan than he does about Prospero. He didn't want to destroy the TS but he (and his legion) still feel they were right to do so because Magnus was 'already lost'.

More to the point, he did what actually needed to be done.

Intentions aside, the Thousand Sons were dabbling into things that would quite easily doom any mortal in every sector around them, with no intentions of stopping no matter how much censure they came under.

Regardless of what side of the heresy they fell on they would ultimately have fallen out of the grace of the Emperium.

GAdvance wrote:
Can i make an informed guess based on Leman Russ' personality.... he was angry and punchy about it

Have an exalt.

Despite the TS are one of my favorite legions... I really don't like their Primarch much.

Magnus being too busy being emo in his tower while he knew the wolves were coming, letting his sons die so he could "get punished" is the main reason.

His lieutenant (upon finding out about the wolves) wonders why Magnus didn't reach out into the warp and smash the oncoming fleet. Then Magnus kills him... man that would've been a much shorter war on Prospero eh?

More Dakka wrote:More to the point, he did what actually needed to be done.

Intentions aside, the Thousand Sons were dabbling into things that would quite easily doom any mortal in every sector around them, with no intentions of stopping no matter how much censure they came under.

Regardless of what side of the heresy they fell on they would ultimately have fallen out of the grace of the Emperium.

I disagree. I think that with full knowledge of the Warp that would come from being on the right side of the Heresy when it all settled down, Magnus would have changed his ways... actually, no, Magnus would have killed himself and let Ahriman change the legion's ways, but it's the same effect, because;

WhiteDevil wrote:Despite the TS are one of my favorite legions... I really don't like their Primarch much.

Magnus being too busy being emo in his tower while he knew the wolves were coming, letting his sons die so he could "get punished" is the main reason.

Magnus was a fricken teenager. Maybe not physically, but emotionally and intellectually? The only thing that stopped him being bullied directly by his detractors was the fact he was big enough to lay them out if they tried something. He was that guy in your year 8 class who always has his head in a book and, if you interrupt him, knows just enough advanced whatever to conjugate a put-down that nobody really understands, then goes off smirking to himself at how smart he is.

Then spends all night beating himself up because he knows nobody was really impressed.

Maybe thats why I always liked Magnus so much, that was me in high school XD.

But no, I blame the Emprah, if he had shared his knowledge of the Warp with Magnus (as well as his plans) in the first place, I think Magnus woulda been a lot more careful about what it was he played around with.

He shouted: "bring me MORE ALE!!!"

In Scars I think the quote in is

P72:
'Has such a thing happened before?' asked Russ, talking to himself rather than them, his expression caustic. 'Do sagas exist in which the Wolf King was drawn to the wrong place, doing the wrong thing? Has our shame ever been greater?'

If there is another I haven't been able to find it.

But Russ does recognise that they were right to attack Prospero due to the Sons being so far gone

 WhiteDevil wrote:
Despite the TS are one of my favorite legions... I really don't like their Primarch much.

Magnus being too busy being emo in his tower while he knew the wolves were coming, letting his sons die so he could "get punished" is the main reason.

His lieutenant (upon finding out about the wolves) wonders why Magnus didn't reach out into the warp and smash the oncoming fleet. Then Magnus kills him... man that would've been a much shorter war on Prospero eh?

Agreed. Sitting in your tower brooding and brushing your hair from your eye, complaining "Woe is me." and lowering the defenses to punish yourself while your sons fight and die to protect you and your planet was incredibly selfish. He should've just gone out and led from the front or settled it Achilles/Hector style with Russ.

As someone else said, Magnus doomed his legion and the area with the stuff he was looking into. Russ may be saddened he missed the bigger fight, but he and the SW did what was necessary.

 Flanker wrote:

Agreed. Sitting in your tower brooding and brushing your hair from your eye, complaining "Woe is me." and lowering the defenses to punish yourself while your sons fight and die to protect you and your planet was incredibly selfish. He should've just gone out and led from the front or settled it Achilles/Hector style with Russ.

Is this meant in jest?

In a way, Magnus screwed up Horus' plan; that two loyal Legions would wipe each other out.

Not a joke, Magnus literally sat in his tower moping about how evil he was and sacrificed his legion on the altar of his own self-absorbed ego.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Not a joke, Magnus literally sat in his tower moping about how evil he was and sacrificed his legion on the altar of his own self-absorbed ego.

He sacrificed his Legion because he knew they'd done wrong. Admittedly mainly because of him but still. If he was really so self-absorbed he would have done a Curze and let himself be killed.

Magnus isn't based on a Martin Sheen/Marlon Brando film like Curze is.

He's pretty unapologetic about what went down on Prospero.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Not a joke, Magnus literally sat in his tower moping about how evil he was and sacrificed his legion on the altar of his own self-absorbed ego.

He sacrificed his Legion because he knew they'd done wrong. Admittedly mainly because of him but still. If he was really so self-absorbed he would have done a Curze and let himself be killed.

He was essentially letting himself be killed, only he was letting his sons die for his mistakes. Curze told his legion to let the assassin kill him. Magnus lowered the defenses, meaning the cities full of civilians and his legionaries could be killed from the orbital bombardment and ensuing assault while he brooded in his chambers.

 Flanker wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Not a joke, Magnus literally sat in his tower moping about how evil he was and sacrificed his legion on the altar of his own self-absorbed ego.

He sacrificed his Legion because he knew they'd done wrong. Admittedly mainly because of him but still. If he was really so self-absorbed he would have done a Curze and let himself be killed.

He was essentially letting himself be killed, only he was letting his sons die for his mistakes. Curze told his legion to let the assassin kill him. Magnus lowered the defenses, meaning the cities full of civilians and his legionaries could be killed from the orbital bombardment and ensuing assault while he brooded in his chambers.

This is true but he did eventually come down to take some of the heat and did rescue what Sons were left when he got a whuppin'.

Do you think that Magnus was expecting the full fury of the Wolves to be unleashed on Prospero or was he expecting to be taken back to Terra in chains? It might be that Magnus knew that he was due to be taken back to Terra for his crimes and was expecting the Wolves to come to Prospero, make some noise, and then go away with him in tow. But Horus order changed that course of events and the Wolves unleashed a full attack. Perhaps if Magnus had seen the latter as the more likely path that Russ would take, dumb if he didn't it's Russ after all, that he would have had Prospero fully prepared for war.

Perhaps he wasn't expecting his justice to be so severe, welcoming it initially, but when he realized the full severity of it he realized what was at stake.

I think that he was resigned to his fate sulking in his tower until he realized what his censure could mean for him and tried to save his ass at the last minute.

 Psienesis wrote:
Magnus isn't based on a Martin Sheen/Marlon Brando film like Curze is.

I know.

Flanker wrote:He was essentially letting himself be killed, only he was letting his sons die for his mistakes. Curze told his legion to let the assassin kill him. Magnus lowered the defenses, meaning the cities full of civilians and his legionaries could be killed from the orbital bombardment and ensuing assault while he brooded in his chambers.

His Legion shared in his mistakes. They didn't reject using sorcery despite it being banned by the Emperor. Unless he could indeed have steered the Space Wolf fleet off course or destroyed it whilst still in the Warp without giving into Tzeentch he was caught between a rock and a hard place. He tried to minimise the casualties of those loyal to the Emperor. Otherwise both Legions would have been critically understrength and the Traitors would have come out better for it.

Him trying not to decimate the Space Wolves was arguably the most noble act he did. He didn't do it was he was emo. He did it to try and preserve the Imperium as much as possible.

There is a good reason Russ' legion were occasionally called dogs. They are loyal and follow orders, whether they like it or not.

He was probably bummed about not being on Istvaan. It's like going hunting and leaving your best dog behind.

 WhiteDevil wrote:
Despite the TS are one of my favorite legions... I really don't like their Primarch much.

Magnus being too busy being emo in his tower while he knew the wolves were coming, letting his sons die so he could "get punished" is the main reason.

Maybe it has something to do with ruining the future of Humanity and discovering that all his ideals were wrong and that he was used by the powers of the warp he thought he was controlling?