Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Obviously, the assault squads in the Skyhammer can assault the same turn that they deep strike; that is explicitly stated in the rules. The confusion comes from their second ability which lets them use their jump packs in both the movement and assault phases (every turn).

My reading, was that the second ability does NOT grant them the ability to move on the same turn they deep strike (they can only assault). But everyone at my local store is playing it as if the ability to use their jump packs in both the movement and assault phase, gives them the ability to move the turn they deepstrike.

Thoughts?

I believe they can only run on a turn when they deepstrike.

This is covered by the 'fundamental concept' that Can-Not (restrictions) will always trump May (permissions), unless the restriction is specifically accounted for, so this question is vital:
What part of Leave no Survivors specifically overturns the 'can not move any further' clause in Deep Strike?

Fundamental concepts are vital in Warhammer 40k because the closest we have for a "Rule Hierarchy" is Basic Vs Advanced, and that only has three levels with the vast majority of Rules being 'Advanced.' There is nothing in the Rulebook itself that informs us how to determine if one Advanced Rule trumps another Advanced Rule, so we have to make the "assumption" that the Rulebook follow the 'default' structure for any 'Permission based game.' To do otherwise will seriously cripple any Restrictions, as we would always be able to point to the Rule the Restriction is trying to prevent as 'Permission' to carry out that act regardless.

To break break down this situation:
Jet-Pack Units have permission to use their packs in the Movement Phase by their Unit Type
This permission is Restricted to a single use per turn, in either Movement or Assault Phase, as per that very Unit Type
We also have the Restriction that they 'can-no move any further' thanks to the clause found in the Deep Strike Special Rule

Permission to use the Jet-Pack in both Movement and Assault Phases over-turns one of the two above Restrictions, thus they are still restricted by the 'can not move any further' clause from Deep Strike....

I don't see one, but the sticking point with my group, that I can't get past is the idea that since they "may use their jump packs in both the movement and assault phase," they may "use" the jump pack in the same movement phase they deepstrike.

I'm hoping for enought relevant data to change some minds. As if Skyhammer wasn't powerful enough, in my area, those first turn charges are guaranteed.

Sorry, was fleshing out my response because I am sure the question didn't portray enough information.... please review my edit.

JinxDragon wrote:
Sorry, was fleshing out what I meant because I am sure the question didn't portray enough information.... please review my edit.

That is beautiful. Exactly what I needed. Thank you.

All I have to do is say to them: "Jet packs may move in both the movement and assault phase, but they can't move after deep strike."

That's the kind of evidence I was looking for. Hopefully it's enough to get past some preconceived notions.

Do wish you luck, some people do not accept 'fundamental concepts' as legitimate reasons... even though the entire game falls apart with-out them!
Seriously, try playing the game without the concept that Restrictions trump Permissions, or that the game was a 'Permission based system' to being with....

There is the blanket "may not move any further" line, that covers this. So while they may use their jump packs, they dont actually get to move.

Under jump packs if use them in movement phase you can move 12" but lose reroll charge range and HoW in assault phase,
If move only 6" in movement phase you are able to reroll failed charge and gain HoW in assault phase.

Being able to use them in movement and assault just lets you move 12" in movement as well as being able to reroll failed charge range and gain HoW in assault.

Page 65 (small rule book) under Jump units. Note nothing in there gives permission to move after deep striking.

Bullveye wrote:
If move only 6" in movement phase you are able to reroll failed charge and gain HoW in assault phase.

This should be clarified.

One can use Jump Packs and only move 6", which would not normally allow their use in the Charge (unless you're Raven Guard).

It is also possible for a Jump unit to move 12" in the Movement Phase and use the Jump Pack in the Assault Phase, but they would have to natively move 12" like a Bike, Beast, or Cavalry, which makes it very rare.

The declaration of use is what limits the Jump Pack, not the distance moved. Bullveye was right on quick concepts, but it could have been misconstrued by someone learning and not fully versed.

Then next question is, "Does using Deep Strike count as using the Jump Pack in the Movement Phase for the Skyhammer Assault Squad?" Not important to Raven Guard members, but useful for everyone else.

If nothing states that the Jump pack is 'used' when a Jump Unit Deep Strikes, why would it 'count as being used' for that turn?

The reason why the Unit can not move any further is simply because the Restriction 'can not move any further' is in play. When the Jump packs are used is not important, there could be a Special Rule stating they can use the Jump-Packs during every phase of the game and they still wouldn't be able to move any further after Deep Striking. The only way they would gain permission to move after Deep Striking is if the Rule specifically stated they can move after Deep Striking, over-turning the Restriction preventing them from moving any further.

 docdoom77 wrote:

All I have to do is say to them: "Jet packs may move in both the movement and assault phase, but they can't move after deep strike." .

Alternately - "They have permission to use their jump packs when they move... but for that to happen, they have to be allowed to move. They are not allowed to move in the movement phase in which they arrive by Deep Strike."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:
Then next question is, "Does using Deep Strike count as using the Jump Pack in the Movement Phase for the Skyhammer Assault Squad?" .

Nothing in the rules suggests that it would.

JinxDragon wrote:
The reason why the Unit can not move any further is simply because the Restriction 'can not move any further' is in play. When the Jump packs are used is not important, there could be a Special Rule stating they can use the Jump-Packs during every phase of the game and they still wouldn't be able to move any further after Deep Striking. The only way they would gain permission to move after Deep Striking is if the Rule specifically stated they can move after Deep Striking, over-turning the Restriction preventing them from moving any further.

Exactly. Running is specifically addressed as being allowed, so it is allowed. Disembarking is allowed, so it is allowed. General Movement and Charging are not allowed, so they can't work. Skyhammer Assault Squads are specifically addressed as being allowed to Charge after Deep Strike, so could Charge then, provided nothing else stops them (ex: Running, firing Heavy/Rapid Fire Weapon, etc).

JinxDragon wrote:
If nothing states that the Jump pack is 'used' when a Jump Unit Deep Strikes, why would it 'count as being used' for that turn?

While not specifically stated, it could be implied that the ability to Deep Strike is a function of the Jump Pack since they wouldn't have it without it. It's how it should be, really, but there is nothing defining it as such. So technically, even Skyhammer Assault Ultramarines should be able to use the Jump Pack in that Charge. I was just offering it up before someone else did.

Just because the Jet Unit Type grants the Special Rule doesn't mean the Jet Pack is being used when the Special Rule is being evoked....
Not without the Jet Unit Type actually stating that the Jet pack is being used.

Charistoph wrote:
While not specifically stated, it could be implied that the ability to Deep Strike is a function of the Jump Pack since they wouldn't have it without it. .

The Deep Strike ability is granted to the model for having a jump pack, not for using it.

 insaniak wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
While not specifically stated, it could be implied that the ability to Deep Strike is a function of the Jump Pack since they wouldn't have it without it. .

The Deep Strike ability is granted to the model for having a jump pack, not for using it.

And did I say otherwise? All I said is that there is implication, and that they should. But implications are not rules, nor is common sense/reality always present in the game.