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So, make their intercept and skyfire worse than every other race, instead of simply reducing their availability or increasing cost, make their markerlights worse than they have ever been for no real reason?

 SDFarsight wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

kambien wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Ignores Cover is an order and requires you to be within range of an officer and to pass a Leadership test.

The Leman Russ variant that ignores cover is strength 6 AP 4 and can only reach to 36". It is also extremely expensive and can only snapfire its other weapons.

Wyverns are not a bad unit

Hydras are an anti air vehicle. Almost every faction has an AA platform. Tau just get it on almost everything.

Aegis can be used by anyone. Try again.

Inquisitor Coteaz. A 100 point upgrade to give a single unit interceptor. Compared to the Tau "lolz intercept everything"

Eldar are not even Imperial.

Mechanicus is Mechanicus and thats a formation, you have to take things to get it, you dont just get it automatically. You may also have noted that I specifically mentioned non Adeptus Mechanicus and non Space Marine stuff - stop judging us all by two armies.

Grey Knights... They have a flyer. Wow.

Tau ignores cover requires them to hit with (2 or 3 I don't remember) Markerlights, or on missile pods which are I believe AP5.

They don't get Interceptor/Skyfire on everything, it's an upgrade for a couple of their suits and/or tanks. On a riptide, for instance, they can choose two upgrades which can be extra guns or skyfire/interceptor.

100 points for a dude in artificer armor with a demonhammer two psychic levels in any discipline who grants interceptor to everyone is a fuckin bargain. There's only really one or two units worth granting interceptor in an army anyway. You wanna pay 200 points to put interceptor on your whole tau list be my guest I'll just laugh at you.

Since when does IG give a flying Frick about tau anyway? What, is he gonna pay 150 points to fire one BS4 S10 shot at you a turn? Oooh, scary. Nuke his pathfinders with a wyvern turn one and roll over him.

Well, let us see shall we? We in the Guard used to be the gunline army of the game, then this thing happened. Some wee-a-boo space commies came along and stole our gunline meta. But we still had our tanks. Then the wee-a-boo space commies brought a whole gak-ton of anti armour stuff that they could pack into their wee-a-boo space suits. Then they brought these things called Marker Lights which basically invalidated everything that we in the Guard have save wise and allowed them to shoot the hell out of us. Then they brought this big ass super mecha suit which is just about unkillable unless we bring a Shadowsword.
Then they complained that they where not good enough.
Yes, the super space commies army with better weapons than us and far more flexibility and manoeuvrability complained that they where not good enough and needed more mary sue models to make them better.

Your suits can take skyfire and/or interceptor? Sweet. We get one - ONE - unit with Skyfire and it is overpriced for what it does.
Wyverns? How the actual feck are they supposed to get within range without being nuked off the table? Eradicators? Well, theres a laugh for you. And it is hardly just one shot anyway, it is more like a ton of BS 5 ignores cover shots.

because there can only be 1 type of shooting army ?
everything in the tau list has skyfire ? laugh when you don't bring any fliers as they wasted a buttload of points and critical slots for something that now has no effect , unless your letting people list tailor against you , which would be dumb

I never said that.
However all the Tau army does is take what the Imperial Guard's primary tactic and do it better. They castle and when anything gets close they just jump away and fly off. Getting within effective range is damn near impossible and assaulting them is an utter joke.

I thought that they're just stronger in different ways. For example the Imperial Guard don't have to choose between anti-tank or anti-infantry fire, they can just place down S8/9 large blast ordinance templates because reasons.

Edit: I forgot there is the over-charge on the ion cannon, but even that needs to take a Gets Hot test.

Wait, we dont have to choose?
Those blasts have to hit the target as if they scatter even a small amount they will be striking at half strength.

You know what's overpriced when it's used as a Skyfire unit? A freaking 200 point Riptide. Strength 7 AP2 3 shots-and remember, it can't boost it's BS or ignore cover unless he snap fires marker lights-and the odds of it doing anything even to an AV10 flyer are next to nothing.

The only effective anti aircraft weapons in 40k currently are a handful of planes and a flyrant. Guard, incidentally, are on that list with the Valkyrie and Vulture.

You love making arguments that have absolutely no basis in reality. How is a wyvern supposed to get close enough to fire? Uh, I dunno maybe put it behind a fricken building because it's a barrage weapon. Tons of anti tank weapons? What tons? Where? You got a hammerhead, equivalent in points to a LR with a S10 AP1 single shot-that's pretty good, it's got a 7% chance of destroying a Russ if it uses ignores cover. You've got a Riptide, S9 AP2 large blast ordnance, not bad but on a 185+ point platform, not great. It's only scary because it can get ignores cover and wipe out heavy infantry or bypass jinks-guess what guard don't have to worry about? The Skyray is S8 AP3, decent against chimeras but hot garbage against Russes-and if they want to waste all their smart missiles popping a 65 point transport, well....yay? And then you got suits. Hey look, it's drop melta. But we both know guard can't do AAAAAANYTHING to stop drop melta. Nope, no possibility of a cheap infantry screen here, move along folks.

IG are the only army that CAN reliably out shoot tau. Turn one, wyvern the crap out of any pathfinder teams on the board. Then laugh as he tries to crack open your Russes with lots of BS3 S8-9 low ROF weaponry.

Or, option B, which is always an option I suppose, you could just continue to cry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Striking at half....what?

What rules are you playing with here?

The Burstside is so broken in every way. I think Tau need to be brought down a peg so players will learn some humility .

I think it would be absolutely brilliant if the new Tau Codex absolutely broke MSU.

There is quite some variety in builds now, but MSU is more prevalent than most. One scissor to that paper would encourage diversity further and I'll say it's a good thing.

When the Markerlights rule in the last codex was written, cover could be difficult to obtain (you had to have 50% of the unit in cover), and cover itself was more powerful, a 4+ save instead of a 5+. At the same time, there were far less rules that allowed for a cover save better than 4+. Those Tau Markerlight rules allowed to reduce cover by 1 for each hit. So this means to eliminate a cover save of 4+ you needed to hit twice.

Then 6th Edition happened.

Cover itself was changed. The 50% rule was no longer a factor, now it was done on model-by-model basis. Cover was a bit more scarce, and Cover was reduced to a normal 5+ save. However at the same time we had MANY more ways to increase the cover save, with Stealth, Shrouded, Jink, Mysterious Objectives, Terrain special rules, etc. Seeing 3+ cover wasn't very unusual.

The new Tau book then decided that 2 hits from Markerlights could completely negate ALL cover saves. On top of that, the majority of Tau has automatic access to the Blacksun Filter or had it cost a laughable ONE point.

On a fundamental level these changes just makes Tau simply too powerful at negating one of the MAIN variables in the shooting phase: the cover save.

The second factor that changed with 6th Edition was Overwatch. Tau were given the ultimate in anti-overwatch abilities. This encouraged the Tau to simply turtle up, keep all their units together, and not move at all over the course of the game.

The third factor was their easy access to Interceptor, which has somewhat been helped by the changes to the Interceptor rule for 7th Edition, but personally I think it's still a bit on the strong side.

What I'd LIKE to see, and what I think would make Tau more interesting to play with/against is taking the Markerlight rule back to where it was in the previous edition. Make them pay for Black Sun Filters. Then take away the Supporting Fire rule. In return, fix Kroot. Then Tau can't simply win games by sitting the majority of their force behind an Aegis Defense Line and using a few Crisis suits to maybe go get an objective or two. They'll actually have to use tactics and plan for the assault phase.

Changing things like that will make it more interesting for everyone. Tau will actually need to maybe MOVE to avoid Assaults. They'll have to use Kroot and other units to protect their shooty and squishy units. If that turns into gameplay moments where a player needs to decide, "Do I shoot the Kroot so I can assault them next turn and win, or do I shoot the Fire Warriors behind them and risk getting assaulted by the Kroot?" then I think that's awesome. It'll make for better games.

 Runic wrote:
I think it would be absolutely brilliant if the new Tau Codex absolutely broke MSU.

There is quite some variety in builds now, but MSU is more prevalent than most. One scissor to that paper would encourage diversity further and I'll say it's a good thing.

If Tau were powerful enough to break MSU, they would be overpowered to an extent that Eldar could only dream of. Not everyone likes to play deathstarhammer.

so nerf any possible way that a bs3 army can improve shooting and give them back a semi melee unit and call it even ?

the_scotsman wrote:
You know what's overpriced when it's used as a Skyfire unit? A freaking 200 point Riptide. Strength 7 AP2 3 shots-and remember, it can't boost it's BS or ignore cover unless he snap fires marker lights-and the odds of it doing anything even to an AV10 flyer are next to nothing.

The only effective anti aircraft weapons in 40k currently are a handful of planes and a flyrant. Guard, incidentally, are on that list with the Valkyrie and Vulture.

You love making arguments that have absolutely no basis in reality. How is a wyvern supposed to get close enough to fire? Uh, I dunno maybe put it behind a fricken building because it's a barrage weapon. Tons of anti tank weapons? What tons? Where? You got a hammerhead, equivalent in points to a LR with a S10 AP1 single shot-that's pretty good, it's got a 7% chance of destroying a Russ if it uses ignores cover. You've got a Riptide, S9 AP2 large blast ordnance, not bad but on a 185+ point platform, not great. It's only scary because it can get ignores cover and wipe out heavy infantry or bypass jinks-guess what guard don't have to worry about? The Skyray is S8 AP3, decent against chimeras but hot garbage against Russes-and if they want to waste all their smart missiles popping a 65 point transport, well....yay? And then you got suits. Hey look, it's drop melta. But we both know guard can't do AAAAAANYTHING to stop drop melta. Nope, no possibility of a cheap infantry screen here, move along folks.

IG are the only army that CAN reliably out shoot tau. Turn one, wyvern the crap out of any pathfinder teams on the board. Then laugh as he tries to crack open your Russes with lots of BS3 S8-9 low ROF weaponry.

Or, option B, which is always an option I suppose, you could just continue to cry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Striking at half....what?

What rules are you playing with here?

Standard blast rules since 4th edition, a vehicle that is under the blast marker but not under the centre of it is hit at half strength.

Wyverns indirect firing are doing so at BS- or in other words those 4 shots aint doing diddly squat unless you get lucky on the scatter role.
Every damn battlesuit can pack some form of AT weaponry.
Cover IS my main, sorry, ONLY save so guess what? Ignores Cover dicks me and mine right over.
Cheap Infantry screen? You are having a laugh right? Oh sure we can deploy 50 or so infa-oh no, there they all go. Tau have a feck ton of anti personnel stuff.
Strength 8 on the flanks of a Russ.... Ah well, bye bye.
Yeah, I suppose I could continue to cry. After all it isnt like Tau make my armies shooting look like an utter joke. It isnt like I struggle to even get within range for most of my basic stuff. it is most certainly not like a Riptide is an almost impossible to beat obstacle to my army and two or more in a game that I forgot to bring/wrap in tons of bodies and lesser vehicles my Shadowsword are an utter joke - I may as well not bother setting up my army.

I am not finding that half-strength blast rule anywhere in my rulebook. I'm looking under "vehicles" and "blast" special rule. And I've played every week since the start of 7th edition and I've never seen that rule come up. Can you cite a page number?

Also, are you forgetting Wyverns are twin-linked? They have over a 50% chance of a direct hit using indirect fire, and with four shots, that means 2 will directly hit, translating to at least 6 hits on a max spread unit of pathfinders. Even if they're taken in units of 10, there is almost no way to not force a morale check and pinning check any time you shoot them. And they're what, LD8? LD7?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After a quick google, it appears the half strength rule was indeed removed in 6th edition, and blast was not changed significantly in 7th.

Knowing the rules: an important step to thinking your army isn't gak!

That rule went away. Blasts are always full strength now.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Wow I'm absent minded today. And yes, the HYPM is OP, we agree on that.

And I forgot that Broadsides can each take a single Seeker Missile for 8 points/model so, there's that thrown into the mix as well.

Need I remind you that it has always been like that. It works like that. I mean, you can cap the BS to 5, that's reasonable, but just making them worse that they have ever been for no adiquite reason is ridiculous

"It has always been like that" is pretty much why Terminators outside of Deathwing or Paladins are still regarded as lackluster..

Capping the BS benefit to +1 and removing a single point of Cover, while granting rerolls to both "Hit" and "Wound" rolls is somehow "worse than they have ever been"?

Effectively, all weapons are twin-linked and all the Tau come with Preferred Enemy(target)...and it's "worse than they have ever been".
Hah!

Anything with equivalent or better range you mean, especially those who can shoot after moving. And if you head at them with unimporant units, you can distract them for your more valuble units, and take some out in the process.

Find me something on basic or elite infantry that isn't a special weapon, a swapped for weapon, or a heavy weapon with a minimum 36" range.

Go on. I can wait. The only thing you'll find will be Eldar Rangers with their Long-Rifles. A unit that has a 5+ save and relies on Stealth/Shrouded to keep itself safe.
You could argue Space Marine Scouts with Sniper Rifles, but remember you pay points for Sniper Rifles.

And while we're at it, let's find something with on demand Ignores Cover--because if you're leaving your Pathfinders out in the open that's your own problem.

If they just stay in one place, it is very possible to stay out of their range or out of line of sight, especilly as it's a heavy weapon. It's what I do, and it works for me. And the important parts of that are riptide and HYMP things that are OP. So of cource they are even more powerful when buffed.

If you deploy lengthwise(i.e. along the long sides of the board) on a standard sized board(6 ftx 4 ft), it actually is potentially impossible to stay out of their LOS--especially if someone deploys LOS blocking terrain in ways that make obscene kill-funnels.

And emphasizing that the "Riptides and HYMP are the things that are OP" does not change the fact that Markerlights are a large part of what can make them OP.
HYMP and SMS on a BS3 platform? That's not horrible in and of itself.
The fact that these weapons are not Ordnance or Blast(meaning that they can't be Overwatched/Snap Fired with) coupled with Markerlights being able to boost them up and Broadsides being able to use Supporting Fire? That's bad.
The fact that these weapons are on platforms which can expend a number of Markerlight counters to gain Ignores Cover(2 tokens means Ignores Cover--which also means "Ignores Stealth and/or Shrouded and/or Jink") and any remaining Markerlight counters can be used for boosting their BS skill for not just that one model but the whole unit which is firing as part of this shooting attack(so potentially 3 Broadsides with 6 Missile Drones, unloading twin-linked HYMPs and SMS) get those benefits.

Hardly. Only if the firepower aimed at you is powerful enough to wipe the unit completely. And other than things that are OP (riptide, HYMP) that usually mean multiple units, in which case you just allowed your units in the corssfire between 3+ units. It's pretty obvious when that happens.

And that's why Markerlights are broken as it stands, yet somehow you're not seeing it.

"Oh you just let yourself get caught in a crossfire!"
"I had to prioritize taking down Markerlights and I don't have anything with high enough range and/or Ignores Cover other than Y"
"Well, tactics better!"

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Wow I'm absent minded today. And yes, the HYPM is OP, we agree on that.

And I forgot that Broadsides can each take a single Seeker Missile for 8 points/model so, there's that thrown into the mix as well.

Seeker missles are crap since they changed them . Garbage on anything but the skyray , and then they are so so .

 Kanluwen wrote:


Capping the BS benefit to +1 and removing a single point of Cover, while granting rerolls to both "Hit" and "Wound" rolls is somehow "worse than they have ever been"?

Effectively, all weapons are twin-linked and all the Tau come with Preferred Enemy(target)...and it's "worse than they have ever been".
Hah!

Yes , that would be the very definition or worse if we did what you propose

 Kanluwen wrote:
Find me something on basic or elite infantry that isn't a special weapon, a swapped for weapon, or a heavy weapon with a minimum 36" range.
Go on. I can wait. The only thing you'll find will be Eldar Rangers with their Long-Rifles. A unit that has a 5+ save and relies on Stealth/Shrouded to keep itself safe.
You could argue Space Marine Scouts with Sniper Rifles, but remember you pay points for Sniper Rifles.
And while we're at it, let's find something with on demand Ignores Cover--because if you're leaving your Pathfinders out in the open that's your own problem.

Exactly why are we limiting to non special weapons ? I mean if you CAN take them why are we ignoring them ?

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you deploy lengthwise(i.e. along the long sides of the board) on a standard sized board(6 ftx 4 ft), it actually is potentially impossible to stay out of their LOS--especially if someone deploys LOS blocking terrain in ways that make obscene kill-funnels.

You choose the mission then set up terrian , how is this even happening ?? Why are you letting it happen ?

 Kanluwen wrote:
And emphasizing that the "Riptides and HYMP are the things that are OP" does not change the fact that Markerlights are a large part of what can make them OP.
HYMP and SMS on a BS3 platform? That's not horrible in and of itself.
The fact that these weapons are not Ordnance or Blast(meaning that they can't be Overwatched/Snap Fired with) coupled with Markerlights being able to boost them up and Broadsides being able to use Supporting Fire? That's bad.
The fact that these weapons are on platforms which can expen d a number of Markerlight counters to gain Ignores Cover(2 tokens means Ignores Cover--which also means "Ignores Stealth and/or Shrouded and/or Jink") and any remaining Markerlight counters can be used for boosting their BS skill for not just that one model but the whole unit which is firing as part of this shooting attack(so potentially 3 Broadsides with 6 Missile Drones, unloading twin-linked HYMPs and SMS) get those benefits.

Riptides aren't op , the cost of the IA is. HYMP aren't overpowered , the rail rifle is just terrible since they nerfed it so its used cause "lack of a better option"
This scenario has all types of things wrong with it . Your assaulting broadsides , and broadsides are very slow , so they probably in the deployment area of tau . Somehow you didn't kill marker light sources on the way in , or did you just wave at the pathfinders while you drove by them? Or maybe they actually brought a skyray and since its been a few turns , it's useless except for 2 marker lights and a SMS on it since all the missiles are now gone from it.
I like how every unit in tau dex has thier own dedicated markerlight source of at least 4 hits per turn and for every unit.
Tau formation : Schrodinger's Markerlight

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Big Ass and Medium Arse Mechs?-Check!

Samurai like shoulder pads?-Check!

Goes by a Brothers of Arms/Warrior Code that uses blades?-Bushido-Check!

As Advance Tech that no one have?-Check!( like all the anime where japanese tech is involved).

As "Shaolin/Taoiste Monks" authoritative figures?-Check!

Heavely Inspired by Japanese and Anime culture?-Double Check!

Is that a Problem?-fething nope, it only makes them different from the rest of the 40k galaxy, wich is cool.

Tau only bring half as much shoulder pad as space marines. I agree on the japenese culture but not anomie culture. Shaolin monks are Chinese. The imp of man has baby carriers knights and the biggest giant robots of all as well as huge shoulder pads but aren't considered anime inspired. Being si-if isn't inherently anime style, and their tech lady I checked isn't strictly more advanced than eldar stuff.

 n0t_u wrote:

 SDFarsight wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Big Ass and Medium Arse Mechs?-Check!

Samurai like shoulder pads?-Check!

Goes by a Brothers of Arms/Warrior Code that uses blades?-Bushido-Check!

As Advance Tech that no one have?-Check!( like all the anime where japanese tech is involved).

As "Shaolin/Taoiste Monks" authoritative figures?-Check!

Heavely Inspired by Japanese and Anime culture?-Double Check!

Is that a Problem?-fething nope, it only makes them different from the rest of the 40k galaxy, wich is cool.

Exactly! Tau battlesuits have more than a passing resemblance to Gundam, and IIRC Farsight is a reference to one of their characters; but that doesn't mean that you have to be a Hello Kitty-loving "wiaboo" to play them. And it's not like the other 40K armies don't have historic/pop culture references of their own. See: Necron warriors, Vindicator tank, Ragnarok tank, Inquisition, Commissars, Death Corps of Krieg, Force Weapons, I could go on..

Nah Tau isn't gundam, they're macross.

Kind of, their battle suits are actually inspired by Battletech Mechs that the artist drew inspiration from various mecha animes and basically blended the two styles:




Edit: Also, their base troops are Chinese, not Japanese in inspiration: " The Tau Infantry models, according to sculptor Jes Goodwin, were designed to have subtle influences taken from Chinese foot soldiers. "

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Jaxler wrote:
Most of the arguments I see are either about tau being too noble bright, being animie inspired or about them being OP and annoying to play against. Most of which I feel aren't exactly grounded in realty or are based off older versions of the game or Tau lore. I'll admit I'm a little biased as a guy who plays tau and finds Japanese history interesting, but most of the stuff people complain about usually seems a little ignorant to me, especially when it's the same complaints I've seen be put out over and over without any facts or arguments to back it up. I also wish the people who complain about tau being "weebo trash" would realize that just because something takes inspiration from eastern culture doesn't mean it takes inspiration from eastern pop culture. Also, when people still call tau OP even after necrons space marines and eldar have gotten their new codexes It makes me roll my eyes a little. I really feel tau don't deserve the disproportionate amount of spite and loathing that they get.

My only complaint about playing Tau is that it is always the same fething game. Tau gunline in the back with 1-2 Riptides and 3 Missile Sides. Maybe some fire warrior bubble wrap and usually a deep striking crisis suit team with some melta/flamers to feth up anything I leave in the backfield. I have played 3 Tau players in 3 completely different geographic locations and the lists were almost identical.

So beyond that I don't understand the rest of it, I like the Idea behind Tau and I would love to see them more often but with different set ups. Also it would be nice if the Eldar hadn't stolen the whole JSJ from the Tau

Eldar had JSJ before Tau.

kambien wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Wow I'm absent minded today. And yes, the HYPM is OP, we agree on that.

And I forgot that Broadsides can each take a single Seeker Missile for 8 points/model so, there's that thrown into the mix as well.

Seeker missles are crap since they changed them . Garbage on anything but the skyray , and then they are so so .

The only change I see for them is they went from range: Unlimited and a maximum of 2 per vehicle @ 10 points each in the previous Tau Empire book fired at an assumed BS of 5(which at the time was the cap which BS could be boosted to via Markerlights) to 72" range, maximum of 2 per vehicle and the addition of Broadsides being able to take a single Seeker Missile @ 8 points each and no auto-BS5.

The effects are the same, barring the Unlimited range by expending 2 Markerlight Counters for +2 BS and utilizing a Markerlight Counter for "Seeker".

 Kanluwen wrote:


Capping the BS benefit to +1 and removing a single point of Cover, while granting rerolls to both "Hit" and "Wound" rolls is somehow "worse than they have ever been"?

Effectively, all weapons are twin-linked and all the Tau come with Preferred Enemy(target)...and it's "worse than they have ever been".
Hah!

Yes , that would be the very definition or worse if we did what you propose

I would suggest you actually try it out sometime, in addition to some of the other proposals that I've put forward--such as Blacksun Filter granting a -1 to enemy Cover Saves and HYMPs/SMS getting an "alternate" fire mode with a blast mode.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Find me something on basic or elite infantry that isn't a special weapon, a swapped for weapon, or a heavy weapon with a minimum 36" range.
Go on. I can wait. The only thing you'll find will be Eldar Rangers with their Long-Rifles. A unit that has a 5+ save and relies on Stealth/Shrouded to keep itself safe.
You could argue Space Marine Scouts with Sniper Rifles, but remember you pay points for Sniper Rifles.
And while we're at it, let's find something with on demand Ignores Cover--because if you're leaving your Pathfinders out in the open that's your own problem.

Exactly why are we limiting to non special weapons ? I mean if you CAN take them why are we ignoring them ?

Because Markerlights are standard wargear on Pathfinders, not an optional upgrade, and if you read the post I replied to, he stated the following:

Anything with equivalent or better range you mean, especially those who can shoot after moving. And if you head at them with unimporant units, you can distract them for your more valuble units, and take some out in the process.

So yes. I'm limiting it to non-special weapons because realistically, the point I made of "Markerlights are equivalent in range to what most armies use for longer-ranged special weapons or heavy weapons" means that his response was nonsense.

Most of the "unimportant units" that he mentions as using expendable chaff towards Pathfinders? No Tau player in their right mind is going to waste Markerlight shots on. And those units are NOT going to be able to outrange 36" in any regards--meaning my initial point of Pathfinders effectively locking down a tile and a half of game board is very valid. It also means that my point of most armies requiring some kind of dedicated unit that could REALISTICALLY be focusing instead on something like a Riptide or Crisis Suits or Broadsides is instead being wasted rooting out Pathfinders, a unit which has before stated to be "subpar and really only good for Markerlighting things".

Understand now why I specifically excluded Special/Heavy weapons, or should I draw you a picture?

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you deploy lengthwise(i.e. along the long sides of the board) on a standard sized board(6 ftx 4 ft), it actually is potentially impossible to stay out of their LOS--especially if someone deploys LOS blocking terrain in ways that make obscene kill-funnels.

You choose the mission then set up terrian , how is this even happening ?? Why are you letting it happen ?

I'm going to suggest you read pages 128 to page 131 in the BRB.

You choose the mission, you set up terrain("Exactly how you set up Citadel scenery models is purely a matter of personal taste, and they can be placed upon the battlefield in any way the players find agreeable"), then you potentially roll to see which deployment map you use. 1-2 is lengthwise(aka: "Dawn of War").

And remember that fortifications purchased as part of an army are deployed as part of a player's army rather than as neutral scenery(meaning they get set up during Deployment rather than the timeframe of setting up the table's terrain), and also remember that some places will not let you move their terrain around for whatever reason--meaning he who chooses best can win.

 Kanluwen wrote:
And emphasizing that the "Riptides and HYMP are the things that are OP" does not change the fact that Markerlights are a large part of what can make them OP.
HYMP and SMS on a BS3 platform? That's not horrible in and of itself.
The fact that these weapons are not Ordnance or Blast(meaning that they can't be Overwatched/Snap Fired with) coupled with Markerlights being able to boost them up and Broadsides being able to use Supporting Fire? That's bad.
The fact that these weapons are on platforms which can expend a number of Markerlight counters to gain Ignores Cover(2 tokens means Ignores Cover--which also means "Ignores Stealth and/or Shrouded and/or Jink") and any remaining Markerlight counters can be used for boosting their BS skill for not just that one model but the whole unit which is firing as part of this shooting attack(so potentially 3 Broadsides with 6 Missile Drones, unloading twin-linked HYMPs and SMS) get those benefits.

Riptides aren't op , the cost of the IA is.

Who fields Riptides without IA?

HYMP aren't overpowered , the rail rifle is just terrible since they nerfed it so its used cause "lack of a better option"

Railrifles are basically just as viable as Transauranic Arquebus are for Skitarii Rangers. Not my problem that you play min/max and seem to be obsessed with only what the interwebs says are gud.

This scenario has all types of things wrong with it . Your assaulting broadsides , and broadsides are very slow , so they probably in the deployment area of tau . Somehow you didn't kill marker light sources on the way in , or did you just wave at the pathfinders while you drove by them? Or maybe they actually brought a skyray and since its been a few turns , it's useless except for 2 marker lights and a SMS on it since all the missiles are now gone from it.

I suggest you actually read posts before replying in the future.

If they just stay in one place, it is very possible to stay out of their range or out of line of sight, especilly as it's a heavy weapon. It's what I do, and it works for me. And the important parts of that are riptide and HYMP things that are OP. So of cource they are even more powerful when buffed.

That is what I replied to.

Nowhere did I ever say anything about Assaulting Broadsides or other such nonsense, and given that it was still replying to his hypothetical garbage of "you need to send in unimportant units to distract the enemy player so your more valuable units can come in and clean up".

His hypothetical is predicated upon playing against a Tau player who doesn't know how to play their army, nothing more.

I like how every unit in tau dex has thier own dedicated markerlight source of at least 4 hits per turn and for every unit.
Tau formation : Schrodinger's Markerlight

Tau formation: Apologist Mark II.

Go!

And realistically, what else are you using your FA slots for if you don't have Hazard Suits or the FA Riptide? Piranhas? Gun Drone Squadrons? Bombers?
I have NEVER seen a Tau army without at least one unit of Pathfinders.

The other thing I don't get, is why do people keep saying Japanese when Tau are a shooting army and the Chinese (who the designer said they were based on) were historically a much more advanced ranged army.

The Chinese were the ones to invent the first guns known as a "Hand Cannon" and were also the ones who had the Chu-ko-nu which was a repeating crossbow that could fire at a faster rate than any normal crossbow.

edit: On the Chu-ko-nu: "... in the hands of a trained soldier, could easily launch ten bolts in fifteen seconds.[1] In comparison, an arbalest could only deliver about two bolts a minute. "


Edit 2: I think I found our Tau:


(A soldier from the Qianlong era, by William Alexander, 1793.)

Yo kanluwen

You can use marker drone squads. Also hazard suits are overpriced for what they do when crisis suits are an option. Also don't discount pirhana, they're not terrible and 15 of them for 600 points could be scary when each unit of 5 for 200 points also doubles as a free 10 man gun drone squad

Also to anyone who says Science Fiction is fantasy go to any school or literary course and say that. I fething dare you. Let's see how long you last.

The distinctions of genres that you're stretching for are not "taught" in anything other than Marketing classes. Literature classes could not give *less* of a gak about such things.

 Psienesis wrote:

Also to anyone who says Science Fiction is fantasy go to any school or literary course and say that. I fething dare you. Let's see how long you last.

The distinctions of genres that you're stretching for are not "taught" in anything other than Marketing classes. Literature classes could not give *less* of a gak about such things.

Indeed libraries typically have science fiction and fantasy in the same "sci-fi/fantasy" section- JRR Martin in with Dan Abnett. Honestly you're not going to get a librarian or book shop owner saying- "Hmm... this Black Library novel about the Tau Empire would go in our science-fantasy section as that's what Warhammer's genre is, but Iron_Captain has informed me that they don't have neo-wizards, so I'm now going to put them strictly into our science-fiction section..."

 Kanluwen wrote:

kambien wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Wow I'm absent minded today. And yes, the HYPM is OP, we agree on that.

And I forgot that Broadsides can each take a single Seeker Missile for 8 points/model so, there's that thrown into the mix as well.

Seeker missles are crap since they changed them . Garbage on anything but the skyray , and then they are so so .

The only change I see for them is they went from range: Unlimited and a maximum of 2 per vehicle @ 10 points each in the previous Tau Empire book fired at an assumed BS of 5(which at the time was the cap which BS could be boosted to via Markerlights) to 72" range, maximum of 2 per vehicle and the addition of Broadsides being able to take a single Seeker Missile @ 8 points each and no auto-BS5.

The effects are the same, barring the Unlimited range by expending 2 Marker light Counters for +2 BS and utilizing a Marker light Counter for "Seeker".

Your missing the most important function from the previous codex . Yes the missile got cheaper by 2 points , yes you have the added benefit of using it without marker light support , you also have the additional rule of what ever shot the missile , now must shoot at the same target as the unit calling in the missile , previously if i had 2 seekers on my DF and i expended tokens , the DF wasn't stuck shooting at what ever the missile hit. The entire point of them was to have the firewarrior teams use them since they are disallowed from have any special weapons ( barring the 1 marker light a upgraded character can have )

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Capping the BS benefit to +1 and removing a single point of Cover, while granting rerolls to both "Hit" and "Wound" rolls is somehow "worse than they have ever been"?
Effectively, all weapons are twin-linked and all the Tau come with Preferred Enemy(target)...and it's "worse than they have ever been".
Hah!

Yes , that would be the very definition or worse if we did what you propose
I would suggest you actually try it out sometime, in addition to some of the other proposals that I've put forward--such as Blacksun Filter granting a -1 to enemy Cover Saves and HYMPs/SMS getting an "alternate" fire mode with a blast mode.

There is no reason to try it out , i can simply look at it . Hit less, check. Enemy gets more saves, check . Path finder squad can be smaller cause there is no reason to get more markers , Check . Save points on pathfinders , Check . Lose 2 models from shooting and have the unit run off the table , Check. yep its worse.

HYMP doesn't need a alternate fire mode , the rail rifle really really needs to not be a POS. its not even about min maxing. Its the same reason no one uses carbines on Firewarrior teams , it's just bad to bring. The HRR used to be the AV for tau ( that's not on suicide units ) now your smacking things with a wet noodle , so yeah its not getting any playtime

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Find me something on basic or elite infantry that isn't a special weapon, a swapped for weapon, or a heavy weapon with a minimum 36" range.
Go on. I can wait. The only thing you'll find will be Eldar Rangers with their Long-Rifles. A unit that has a 5+ save and relies on Stealth/Shrouded to keep itself safe.
You could argue Space Marine Scouts with Sniper Rifles, but remember you pay points for Sniper Rifles.
And while we're at it, let's find something with on demand Ignores Cover--because if you're leaving your Pathfinders out in the open that's your own problem.
Exactly why are we limiting to non special weapons ? I mean if you CAN take them why are we ignoring them ?

Because Markerlights are standard wargear on Pathfinders, not an optional upgrade, and if you read the post I replied to, he stated the following:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Anything with equivalent or better range you mean, especially those who can shoot after moving. And if you head at them with unimporant units, you can distract them for your more valuble units, and take some out in the process.[/color]
So yes. I'm limiting it to non-special weapons because realistically, the point I made of "Markerlights are equivalent in range to what most armies use for longer-ranged special weapons or heavy weapons" means that his response was nonsense.

Most of the "unimportant units" that he mentions as using expendable chaff towards Pathfinders? No Tau player in their right mind is going to waste Markerlight shots on. And those units are NOT going to be able to outrange 36" in any regards--meaning my initial point of Pathfinders effectively locking down a tile and a half of game board is very valid. It also means that my point of most armies requiring some kind of dedicated unit that could REALISTICALLY be focusing instead on something like a Riptide or Crisis Suits or Broadsides is instead being wasted rooting out Pathfinders, a unit which has before stated to be "subpar and really only good for Markerlighting things".

Understand now why I specifically excluded Special/Heavy weapons, or should I draw you a picture?

Draw me a picture , preferable something with fruit.
Your reasoning is totally flawed , not counting things because you have to pay points ? ok , the pathfinder teams markers unit B . I score 4 marker tokens , YAY ! . Now nothing happens , cause i would have to had pay points for another unit to be able to shoot at them.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you deploy lengthwise(i.e. along the long sides of the board) on a standard sized board(6 ftx 4 ft), it actually is potentially impossible to stay out of their LOS--especially if someone deploys LOS blocking terrain in ways that make obscene kill-funnels.

You choose the mission then set up terrian , how is this even happening ?? Why are you letting it happen ?

I'm going to suggest you read pages 128 to page 131 in the BRB.

You choose the mission, you set up terrain("Exactly how you set up Citadel scenery models is purely a matter of personal taste, and they can be placed upon the battlefield in any way the players find agreeable"), then you potentially roll to see which deployment map you use. 1-2 is lengthwise(aka: "Dawn of War").

And remember that fortifications purchased as part of an army are deployed as part of a player's army rather than as neutral scenery(meaning they get set up during Deployment rather than the timeframe of setting up the table's terrain), and also remember that some places will not let you move their terrain around for whatever reason--meaning he who chooses best can win.

ok i was wrong about the order , but you still get to choose to place terrain , you can still place terrain that would be meaningful against the long deployment , you choose not to. You can't balance things if you choose to limit yourself. Yep , ther is a chance you don't get the long edge , and there is a chance you do

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And emphasizing that the "Riptides and HYMP are the things that are OP" does not change the fact that Markerlights are a large part of what can make them OP.
HYMP and SMS on a BS3 platform? That's not horrible in and of itself.
The fact that these weapons are not Ordnance or Blast(meaning that they can't be Overwatched/Snap Fired with) coupled with Markerlights being able to boost them up and Broadsides being able to use Supporting Fire? That's bad.
The fact that these weapons are on platforms which can expend a number of Markerlight counters to gain Ignores Cover(2 tokens means Ignores Cover--which also means "Ignores Stealth and/or Shrouded and/or Jink") and any remaining Markerlight counters can be used for boosting their BS skill for not just that one model but the whole unit which is firing as part of this shooting attack(so potentially 3 Broadsides with 6 Missile Drones, unloading twin-linked HYMPs and SMS) get those benefits.

Riptides aren't op , the cost of the IA is.
Who fields Riptides without IA?

people who don't think shooting 12 shots nova charged with gets hot is a big deal

 Kanluwen wrote:

HYMP aren't overpowered , the rail rifle is just terrible since they nerfed it so its used cause "lack of a better option"

Railrifles are basically just as viable as Transauranic Arquebus are for Skitarii Rangers. Not my problem that you play min/max and seem to be obsessed with only what the interwebs says are gud.

I have no idea what those are , can't comment

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nowhere did I ever say anything about Assaulting Broadsides or other such nonsense, and given that it was still replying to his hypothetical garbage of "you need to send in unimportant units to distract the enemy player so your more valuable units can come in and clean up".

 Kanluwen wrote:

The fact that these weapons are not Ordnance or Blast(meaning that they can't be Overwatched/Snap Fired with) coupled with Markerlights being able to boost them up and Broadsides being able to use Supporting Fire? That's bad.

 Kanluwen wrote:
His hypothetical is predicated upon playing against a Tau player who doesn't know how to play their army, nothing more.

I like how every unit in tau dex has thier own dedicated markerlight source of at least 4 hits per turn and for every unit.
Tau formation : Schrodinger's Markerlight

Tau formation: Apologist Mark II.

Go!

And realistically, what else are you using your FA slots for if you don't have Hazard Suits or the FA Riptide? Piranhas? Gun Drone Squadrons? Bombers?
I have NEVER seen a Tau army without at least one unit of Pathfinders.

Kanluen, youve made a great arguement but this is getting no where. Sadly this is one of those Tau players whom dosnt like to admit just how powerful Tau are.

 SDFarsight wrote:
I thought that they're just stronger in different ways. For example the Imperial Guard don't have to choose between anti-tank or anti-infantry fire, they can just place down S8/9 large blast ordinance templates because reasons.

Edit: I forgot there is the over-charge on the ion cannon, but even that needs to take a Gets Hot test.

One of the problems is Guard simply are not in the same shooty league as tau. We do have Wyverns but I find they pale in comparison to many of the tau's indirect weapons, their only saving grace being their point cost. But since when is a Wyvern spam fun? And they're "good", not great, simply good.

Sure we get orders to improve them, but look how expensive Heavy Weapon squads are! They're about the same price as equivalent vehicles (bot tanks and fliers) which are all BS3. There's a reason every guard player is going crazy with tank commanders, and even then you get forced to take an additional Leman Russ as well as the commanders, which isn't a bad thing, but you have to waste an order each turn just to let them split fire (edit: not snap fire sorry).

As soon as we come against anything T5 with multiple wounds we also just don't have anything reasonable to deal with them. T4 I can cope with, but when you face multiple T5 units, especially bikes and the like we simply have no response.

Also I've noticed while on paper we have lots of anti-tank, none of it is especially reliable, especially with Hull points and the 7th ed vehicle damage table. Basically we're a decent army against medium infantry, great vs light vehicles and infantry. But bring over enemy medium vehicle and heavy infantry, bikes etc we can't respond the same way tau can. Never mind the fact how immobile we are compared to tau.

Give us a point drop for specialist footsloggers, and the ability to veteran vehicles and heavy weapon squads and I will accept Imperial Guard are an acceptable alternative to a shooty tau army. Hell our only reliable tank killer is a weapon fluff wise designed to take down titans and requires a commander driving it to be effective!

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 SDFarsight wrote:
I thought that they're just stronger in different ways. For example the Imperial Guard don't have to choose between anti-tank or anti-infantry fire, they can just place down S8/9 large blast ordinance templates because reasons.

Edit: I forgot there is the over-charge on the ion cannon, but even that needs to take a Gets Hot test.

One of the problems is Guard simply are not in the same shooty league as tau. We do have Wyverns but I find they pale in comparison to many of the tau's indirect weapons, their only saving grace being their point cost. But since when is a Wyvern spam fun? And they're "good", not great, simply good.

Sure we get orders to improve them, but look how expensive Heavy Weapon squads are! They're about the same price as equivalent vehicles (bot tanks and fliers) which are all BS3. There's a reason every guard player is going crazy with tank commanders, and even then you get forced to take an additional Leman Russ as well as the commanders, which isn't a bad thing, but you have to waste an order each turn just to let them split fire (edit: not snap fire sorry).

As soon as we come against anything T5 with multiple wounds we also just don't have anything reasonable to deal with them. T4 I can cope with, but when you face multiple T5 units, especially bikes and the like we simply have no response.

Also I've noticed while on paper we have lots of anti-tank, none of it is especially reliable, especially with Hull points and the 7th ed vehicle damage table. Basically we're a decent army against medium infantry, great vs light vehicles and infantry. But bring over enemy medium vehicle and heavy infantry, bikes etc we can't respond the same way tau can. Never mind the fact how immobile we are compared to tau.

Give us a point drop for specialist footsloggers, and the ability to veteran vehicles and heavy weapon squads and I will accept Imperial Guard are an acceptable alternative to a shooty tau army. Hell our only reliable tank killer is a weapon fluff wise designed to take down titans and requires a commander driving it to be effective!

I see what you mean about the hull points. Even when I'm benefiting from them as a mech Tau player I still don't like them- they make armour feel much more spongy and 'health point' orientated rather than the all-or-nothing nature of armoured combat. With hull points it's easier to damage vehicles but harder to get an out-right kill.

Tau allied with Eldar made it to the finals of Nova this past weekend. 6 broadsides, a buff commander, riptide, some troops, and a FW little flyer/drone unit. His Strength of schedule was pretty rough also.
So hate Tau? Nah, Tau are just fine and will only get better with the next book.

 SDFarsight wrote:

I see what you mean about the hull points. Even when I'm benefiting from them as an mech Tau player I still don't like them- they make armour feel much more spongy and 'health point' orientated rather than the all-or-nothing nature of armoured combat. With hull points it's easier to damage vehicles but harder to get an out-right kill.

I hate the fact on the rare occasion I actually hit something with a battle cannon, penetrate it and because it's AP3 it can't destroy anything that isn't open topped without bleeding the hull points!!!

And don't get me started on how AP works versus vehicles. I would presume the Armour Penetration Value, would help with the Armour Penetration Roll!!! I find it a tad silly an effect of a S8 ordnance weapon exploding inside a vehicle, even a land raider at the most immobilizes it.... And not only that you need three such attacks to do so.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 SDFarsight wrote:
I thought that they're just stronger in different ways. For example the Imperial Guard don't have to choose between anti-tank or anti-infantry fire, they can just place down S8/9 large blast ordinance templates because reasons.

Edit: I forgot there is the over-charge on the ion cannon, but even that needs to take a Gets Hot test.

One of the problems is Guard simply are not in the same shooty league as tau. We do have Wyverns but I find they pale in comparison to many of the tau's indirect weapons, their only saving grace being their point cost. But since when is a Wyvern spam fun? And they're "good", not great, simply good.

You lost all credit, you either don't know the rules, or making stuff up.

Tau have NO indirect weapons bar a single relic weapon for suits (who is really bad) and the SMS, who is a mere S5AP5 30" gun.
If you claim the Wyvern, who is hand-down the best anti-light-infantry artillery in the entire game is outdone by the "only on expensive platform as a second gun" SMS, you are not in the ballpark of reality.
If you claim its outdone by some other indirect weapon, I'd like to see that gun-because I sure as hell want to have one.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

Also I've noticed while on paper we have lots of anti-tank, none of it is especially reliable, especially with Hull points and the 7th ed vehicle damage table. Basically we're a decent army against medium infantry, great vs light vehicles and infantry. But bring over enemy medium vehicle and heavy infantry, bikes etc we can't respond the same way tau can. Never mind the fact how immobile we are compared to tau.

Give us a point drop for specialist footsloggers, and the ability to veteran vehicles and heavy weapon squads and I will accept Imperial Guard are an acceptable alternative to a shooty tau army. Hell our only reliable tank killer is a weapon fluff wise designed to take down titans and requires a commander driving it to be effective!

And tau HAS any anti-tank solutions except the immobile broadside (who isn't any good against anything over AV12 AND gets close to it), and drop suits?
HRR? don't make me laugh. riptide? hardly worth the cost used that way. railheads? math proves they probably won't even kill a chimera even with infinite markerlights.
At least you can spam lascannons. we don't even have that.



People can complain all they want on how absurd the HYMP broadside and the IA riptide are, and while its true-these are the clutches that holds the rest of the codex in playable level. if you remove them from the codex and keep the rest as-is, it simply do not have the tools to handle anything from FMCs to AV13/14 or anything that cannot be stopped form hitting your lines at T1 (and so many fething things these days can be in your deployment on T1)
And compared to even IG, it has less options.
You always see tau lists who are nearly the same because nothing else is worth fielding except the gimmik farsight bomb. sure we got some solid units, but they don't match well, and don't cover nearly enough bases. we got entire sections of the game locked out of us without any option to participate, we got no worthy allies despite being the faction who is supposedly most cooperative, and our entire collective of alien races has less diversity than codex marines.
Tau's OP guns (HYMP and IA) need to be nerfed-nobody argues on it. but so much else needs to be brought up in order for it to be even playable.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 SDFarsight wrote:
I thought that they're just stronger in different ways. For example the Imperial Guard don't have to choose between anti-tank or anti-infantry fire, they can just place down S8/9 large blast ordinance templates because reasons.

Edit: I forgot there is the over-charge on the ion cannon, but even that needs to take a Gets Hot test.

One of the problems is Guard simply are not in the same shooty league as tau. We do have Wyverns but I find they pale in comparison to many of the tau's indirect weapons, their only saving grace being their point cost. But since when is a Wyvern spam fun? And they're "good", not great, simply good.

You lost all credit, you either don't know the rules, or making stuff up.

Tau have NO indirect weapons bar a single relic weapon for suits (who is really bad) and the SMS, who is a mere S5AP5 30" gun.

If you claim the Wyvern, who is hand-down the best anti-light-infantry artillery in the entire game is outdone by the "only on expensive platform as a second gun" SMS, you are not in the ballpark of reality.
If you claim its outdone by some other indirect weapon, I'd like to see that gun-because I sure as hell want to have one.

Don't play tau, so when so will have to have a work when I see our tau player on sunday, but he's been playing havoc in our city fighting maps. Some rule concerning lines of sight from other units, may be what you're on about, but it constantly obliterates multiple units.

Also the Myvern is good at exactly what you stated, killing light infantry, and how much light infantry is left in the game these days? Sure you can spam the damn things, but as I said earlier since when has spamming units been fun? I might have to start taking 9 of the buggers!

Then again S5AP5 is pretty much a guard killer, which may be why I had a negative memory of it

 BoomWolf wrote:
And tau HAS any anti-tank solutions except the immobile broadside (who isn't any good against anything over AV12 AND gets close to it), and drop suits?
HRR? don't make me laugh. riptide? hardly worth the cost used that way. railheads? math proves they probably won't even kill a chimera even with infinite markerlights.
At least you can spam lascannons. we don't even have that.

Only realistic way to do that is via Vendetta. Taking footslogger Lascannons ain't that much cheeper! And we all know guard players reaction to the Vendetta, mixed to say the least. And then our AA options are boarderline overpriced or useless.

MechWarrior was based off of a board game from the 80s. So theres some shade for the "not all giant robot stuff is asian" crowd. Then again theres mecha godzilla, which is older...

Anywho, just wait until the new tau codex drops. Then you'll definitely be that TFG play that-fething-army again. Especially if you have forgeworld. Seriously though, the idea of tau formations makes me lose sleep.